Use of AI in detection, flight control, engine control. Gen factor doesn't only follow kinematics, it's a package of Kinematics, AI and Avionics too.
IAF looking to acquire 2-3 squadrons of fifth-generation fighter jets from foreign sources
- Thread starter Ashwin
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Use of AI in detection, flight control, engine control. Gen factor doesn't only follow kinematics, it's a package of Kinematics, AI and Avionics too.
The ghost of the (INC fabricated) Rafale corruption scandal apparently still haunts GoI. Any single-source G2G deal for 5G jets will likely see another round of political mud slinging.
I suspect Modi will have no choice but to go in for another tender with Su-57 facing off against F-35 (esp now that he leads a coalition govt)
If that happens, a deal may not be signed until 2027-28 with deliveries commencing in 2032.
Rafale is the safer bet but we must hold DA's feet to the fire and get ISE kit integrated, stuff we already paid for. If need be, get some Meteors from French AF stocks.
Imo, the IAF should have negotiated for source code access back in 2016 (when DA had barely any intl orders for Rafale). Hope it is factored in for MRFA or we're toast.
The projected 5 year timeline for MKI UPG is baffling, tbh. 80% of the systems involved are reportedly Indian and we have extensive ground infra (like an iron rig) for parallel integration and testing. Don't know what's taking so long.
I am asking what rationale would you have to give fund for 5th gen a decade ago.
And just cause HAL said that we have the whole tech now, how much his words are worth when Tejas haven't been able to be deliver the capacity IAF needed from it yet.
Youre right to say op sindoor made way for clearing of funds. But that's what I am saying. Without op sindoor, would you yourself be able to justify govt sanctioning 15000 crore for AMCA while LCA is delayed. That's what I am asking.
even now we don't have a working engine. Be honest, if before op sindoor, you heard the news that govt wants to invest 69000 cr for an engine.. you won't criticise it? Or that Congress won't use it politically ? The reason you see it so smoothly is because they know any objection will result in backlash.
And yes, ofcourse there are issues with the ministry and how lethargic it is. and I am of full support of reforms needed in how DRDO works and how our defense ecosystem is. Especially the hold babus and ministers have over it.
All i am saying is, AMCA isn't the issue. System is. The Beauracratic claw that clutches our scientist and industry. Which has seen improvement and the reforms have been opposed by vested interest in drdo itself. Even rahul gandhi opposed and politicised the issue when govt was looking to make reform in HAL and it's monopoly. In the name of how it will take the jobs away from HAL.
Now instead of remaking HAL, govt is bypassing it. You see how private industry built a foundation but various JVs for MRO, fuselages, wings etc.. and embedded itself into the supply chain. The concept of DcPP. Everything has and is laying the foundation for pvt industry to get ready. And now that has advanced into next stage where there's a hope that private players can indeed take up the workshare in AMCA hence the new proposal.
While we praise chinese vision, don't neglect to praise where praise is due for our govt too. Even now, AMCA will need a very robust partnership of Indian private industry, DPSUs and foreign OEMs.
Common sense, future threat analysis and intel inputs. Prevention is always better than cure.
You have not listened to the video I shared. He clearly mentioned, the supply chain is the issue, and test bed facilities worth thousands of crores and the money has to be sanctioned.
Yes, more test bed facilities, more jobs, more tech intake, more to learn, safer future. And aren't you doing now, some day you have to.
Lack of test bed facilities.
Put it him jail then why is he is roaming past 15 years. You have a case.
That's what the chief designer said, and he have surely vouched for it even during his service days, that's why he is saying it now. But it's only now after backlash and constant threats from neighbouring nations. Earlier every one was sleeping in Delhi.
Without its definitive engine(5th or 6th gen), it won't be proper 5th gen fighter jet, forget about being 5.5 gen. I have been saying this same thing that AMCA won't be battle ready before 2040. By the time we will need to locally manufacture an imported 5th gen and shall need it in much more than this "stop-gap" nonsense.
That's why in my opinion, we'll have between 150-200 Su-57MKIs(2-seat version) before 2040.
These are what a 5th generation aircraft has in terms of attributes. Do keep these in mind as we move along these trenches.
- Stealth Capabilities
Designed with radar-absorbent materials, angular shapes, and internal weapons bays to minimize radar cross-section (RCS) and infrared signatures, making them nearly invisible to enemy detection systems. - Supercruise
Equipped with powerful engines that enable sustained supersonic flight without afterburners, enhancing fuel efficiency and operational range during high-speed missions. - Advanced Avionics & Sensor Fusion
Integrate radar, infrared sensors, and electronic warfare systems into a unified network, providing pilots with real-time situational awareness and the ability to process vast amounts of battlefield data . - Network-Centric Warfare
Capable of sharing data seamlessly with other aircraft, ground forces, and command centers, enabling coordinated strikes and enhanced battlefield decision-making. - High Maneuverability
Feature aerodynamic designs (e.g., thrust-vectoring engines) for exceptional agility, allowing rapid evasion of threats and engagement in close combat.
- Reduced Radar Cross-Section (RCS): Stealth aircraft are shaped with smooth, angular surfaces and radar-absorbent materials to deflect or absorb radar waves, making them appear smaller or invisible to radar systems .
- Infrared Signature Suppression: Techniques such as cooling exhaust systems or directing engine heat upward reduce infrared emissions, countering heat-seeking missiles .
- Low Observability in Visual and Radio Spectrums: Special coatings and minimized radio emissions further obscure the aircraft from visual identification and electronic interception
I agree about the threat analysis. But that comes from the armed forces and the institutions. Not the govt. And as you said, supply chain, testing facilities worth thousands of crores are the issue. So how does it make sense to sanction AMCA. That's all I am saying.
Aren't the issues of supply chains being solved. No one gives you testing facility technologies that. It's home grown. And one facility is just coming up. Two defense corridors have been set up. Various schemes have been initiated, funds have been made available for companies to setup various test facilities. MakeI, MAKEII, and various other funding schemes.
And companies are using it and setting them up. DRDO ( against its wishes) was encouraged to set up centres to facilitate partnership with academia. To facilitate partnership with industry. To focus on research and leave production to others. Things are happening.. but the foundation was never there to build it all rapidly.. and that has been worked upon.. under the ever presence of politically vested interest who wouldn't like to see india becoming better in self defence neither the into of private players which will leave many babaus out of their " kamai".
Already happened before op sindoor as i mentioned above. Even I myself have been looking on how to set up a manufacturing business with help of these schemes. Hence, I got tiny bit of knowledge regarding available funds.
Welcome to India!
Oh these recommendations were given many years ago. But there's been internal pushback from DRDO itself. Even HAL. I am sure, govt has now got the political capital to push reforms without backlash from DRDO union. Cause this time DRDO will be on backfoot in the consensus building negotiations.
Give it a read. I believe there's a thread in this forum about recommendations for DRDO reforms given by a committee and how it progressed and what's hindering them.
So, no, they weren't sleeping. While a 5th gen FA ismt here. We do have made progress in radars, BMD, Subs etc.. Now with OP sindoor, i am seeing public interest in IAF capability which will push not just the govt but those babus and middleman who pushes the file.. to focus on offensive side of IAF.
It's a mixed bag. I will be very happy to see my India grow, both economically and in strength. Hopefully, op sindoor has given enough shock to the system and to the liberals who wanted more "invisible" hospitals and forests rather than weapons and trains, highways, roads to march on.
Have any 5th gen fighter gone against a potent defended airspace so far ? Because most of the 5th gen, i.e F-35 series have seen action where even 4.5 gen FA would rule.
Even Iran doesn't have the sophisticated air defense required to stop a 4,4.5 gen threat. Let alone 5th.
And if I recall correctly, B-2 spirit bomber went after AD was severely degraded, so we didn't get any report regarding its stealth in that operation. Articles even suggested USAF did a misdirection tactic to support the operation.
I am not saying f-35 isn't stealthy. I am asking because I do not know of such instances.
So, it's a question, not a claim or any point. I ask for F-35 only because it's the only accepted 5th gen right now which has been in battle.
I do not believe there have been such instances so far. By potent I am talking about layered latest generation IADS irrespective of OEM origins.
Yes. I didn't mean any particular OEM. Only capability of ADS. Layered and networked and dense. Not just limited to few radars or batteries that is.
Does India have potent Air defense systems against air to surface missiles not just BMD? Or does BMD and akash SAM systems work for all threat?
Aray kuch nahi ayega, this will also get delayed. Didn't you see they were still not serious about AMCA, and acted only when there was public pressure after hearing a news that Pakistan will get 5th gen fighter. They will spend 5 years to decide what to buy and it will be already 2030. And then by 2035, you will hear the news that a squadron of super sukhoi is ready. And suddenly India will sign a deal after that to buy ready made 5th gen fighters upgraded to 5.5+ because the engine development for AMCA got delayed. I guess max 12 Su57MKIs by 2040 in fly by condition.
Simple point is you do not have any manufacturing facility no way 150-200 is Su57 are possible by 2040 it will take time. Even countries like Indonesia are getting 5th gen ( turkish 5th gen for the name sake).
I would suggest IAF not to retire the Mig21 till they are flying and until 100 LCA MK1 don't join. Otherwise SQN numbers will fall badly.
GOI is serious this time around. Things are moving in the right direction for IAF and positive news will come out soon.
We can convert HAL's Nashik MKI line for Su-57MKI line with some modifications. Even with 10 Su-57MKIs produced locally from 2028 onwards, we'll still end up with 120 Su-57MKIs by 2040.
Yes you can do it and it will take 5 years to operationalize production technology if today it is approved. Nasik facility requires major overhaul for 5th gen manned aircraft production. Right now they are upgrading it for Super Sukhoi project , Su30 MKI and MK1.
12 new Su30 MKI were approved in 2023 and it will take two to three years more before the 1st unit is completed. So you can imagine when will Su57 will roll out.
IAF short term savior will be
OTH Radar+ Akashteer new Gen + Rafales with new EW suite, BVR AAM integration + Super Sukhoi + Su30MKI + LCA Mk1.
Anything with 5th gen or stealth will be after 2029 and I personally think it will be a UCAV.
Akashteer is army own system that normally would have catered for a short range need since army role is mainly area centric & would not exceed like 50-150km past the country border. The IAF one is the central grid IACCS that is being gradually implemented by BEL and into which the army ad system Akashteer is also now linked with/integrated. So AD for past 100km of the border is IAF duty & has the different phases, hard asset based are to prevent intrusion by enemy aerial asset like jets uav etc, soft measure for other stuff like bombs missiles etc, also IAF got a space defence thing not sure what maybe EW sat defence etc.
Anyway bottom line is, air defence is taken as a highly sensitive matter and there are good amount of measures available. However given the huge area coverage, there is always shortfall because the Govt won't allow the spending needed for it. No if or but. Govt opens purse where it thinks money is needed and turn a blind eye consciously towards the other need. Jet engine dev is a fine example.
Anyway bottom line is, air defence is taken as a highly sensitive matter and there are good amount of measures available. However given the huge area coverage, there is always shortfall because the Govt won't allow the spending needed for it. No if or but. Govt opens purse where it thinks money is needed and turn a blind eye consciously towards the other need. Jet engine dev is a fine example.
Naval air defence Trigun is also integrated. This was the strategic shift to create an offensive air defence system. This also helps in identifying friend or foe due to better situational awareness.
The F-35 vs. Su-57: Why India is Asking the Wrong Question - Quwa
India will award the AMCA contract in 3-6 months while also considering an interim next-gen fighter.
quwa.org
This is a Pakistani defense blog. Not your typical rant but I think blogger resides out of Pakistan.
Anyway, it makes sense to me and matches what I believe to be the right course.
Only if drdo is ready and determined to give iaf AMCA within timeline.
I already said that I don't think about short-term goals or benefits. GOI is also charting out a plan for IAF's future, which will see IAF receive around 35-40 fighters per year.
All of this may seem like conjecture right now, but we all will see this unfold with our very own eyes within few years.
We need not just 3-4 squadrons of stealth aircraft, we need full MMMRCA & F35 of equal numbers. 60% is the availability of F35, you need 100+ it have 60 aircraft availability, that is mere 3 squadrons.
There's a lot of truth in this statement . More than anything else it's the IAF's staunch refusal to add to the numbers by building more MKIs which'd come back to haunt it .
Basically the IAF now is in the process of proving Murphy's Law right . Practically everything that can go wrong with it has gone wrong & what's left will go wrong within the next few years.
Absolutely damning indictment of the SSC pass Dhotis & their BA Hons in Eng Literature babooos . The former wouldn't sanction a higher OPEX for the IAF consistently & the latter would refuse to induct more MKIs on account of a paltry OPEX budget. Result - here we are.
I wonder how exactly are we thinking of operating those 5th Gen FAs we plan to induct. Expect the pilots to spend 200 hours / month on the simulator while spending 20 min / month on a sortie ?
Coming back to the Mirage 2000s , the Jaguars & the MiG-29s in spite of all the fancy upgrades the truth is these FAs are in the sunset of their lives & the best you can expect out of them is sub par performance .
Against PAF they'd still be a handful but against the PLAAF barring the Mirage 2000s to an extent only the MiG-29 would have some degree of a chance . No way we can field the Jaguars against them .
If we get the full complement of the 73 LCA Mk-1a by 2030 , they can be deployed as ambush hunters in the valleys of the Himalayas against incoming fleets of PLAAF FAs where detection can be difficult given their naturally small size though I'm not too sure how effective this move would be & how long can the IAF rely on this tactic for we're living in a fast paced world where change is the only constant.
A tactic once used loses its efficacy if deployed repeatedly. What's more there's a good chance it'd backfire on repeated use.