Dude you think China will hand over J36 or even J50 to Pakistan?
. It's like you handing over Mercedes to your best friend. China will give Pakistan J36....in 2060 when it deploys 7th gen en masse.IAF looking to acquire 2-3 squadrons of fifth-generation fighter jets from foreign sources
- Thread starter Ashwin
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. It's like you handing over Mercedes to your best friend. China will give Pakistan J36....in 2060 when it deploys 7th gen en masse.
The F-35 at Karela was the B variant, which has faced several issues due to its inherent design compromises, especially related to its STOVL capability.........However , we're looking at the F-35A, which is a completely different platform......more capable, more reliable, and free from the limitations of the B model......It's superior across all major 5th generation fighter performance parameters & is without a doubt the most advanced fighter jet in service today.
You can sell for money, right?Dude you think China will hand over J36 or even J50 to Pakistan?
Just because you've been offered the chance to screwdrive a tin can locally doesn’t magically turn it into gold.......it’s still a tin can, and that’s exactly what the Su-57 is.......All the local assembly and hype can’t hide the fact that it's an overhyped, under delivering platform that falls far short of true fifth generation standards..... We have no option other than F 35A until AMCA arrive period.
The logical step imo would be to buy 2 more squadrons of Rafale, order the next 97 Tejas Mk1A, and focus on AEWCS and tankers first.
For the interim measure, work with Russians to see if we can loaclise Su57 with our own components. Like I am pretty sure that our 1st AESA would perform better than their best. If they agree to let us modify , get them to participate in MMRCA and order 114 Su57.
For the interim measure, work with Russians to see if we can loaclise Su57 with our own components. Like I am pretty sure that our 1st AESA would perform better than their best. If they agree to let us modify , get them to participate in MMRCA and order 114 Su57.
I have a feeling that this MRFA of 114 will be split between the Rafale G2G local assembly deal and a fifth-generation import.
Wait till you Hear the Preconditions that will come with F 35
What we are doing is Creating a Situation where we can Jusify the purchase of SU 57
And tell the Americans that your Preconditions are Excessive and Cannot be implemented
Two such Preconditions I can already guess
American personnel at Airbases
No Networking with our existent Radars or IACCS
Then there is the issue of S 400 and the Newer VORONEZH Counter Stealth , Long range radar
US deployed Its people on JACOBABAD to prevent F 16 Block 52 being accessed by China
Look , I'm not saying that it'll obviously happen, but as per THREAT & RISK ANALYSIS I have to assume all the possible situations because THERE IS NOTHING IMPOSSIBLE IN GEOPOLITICS... Yes , J36 or, J50 are the most sophisticated systems that China is building/having and these are pinnacles of Chinese technology... So China will try to protect them, But when its geopolitical game will be shifting away from China , especially in South Asian & Indo-Pacefic zone, then China can go to any level to protect its interests.Dude you think China will hand over J36 or even J50 to Pakistan?
Rafale F 5 and SU 57
I have a feeling that IAF will say We will take AMCA with the New 120 KN engine
AMCA MK1 will be limited to a few prototypes
Because it is already underpowered with 414 engine as compared to the AMCA MK 2 and SU 57
Logic and the decreasing no. of planes in service point towards it. HAL's lukewarm delivery rates has led us to a point where a purchase of 4.5 gen has to happen. Safran and DA have made investments in India and need to something to feed their production lines (which they are setting up). Further suddenly the babus in the MoD feel maybe IAF does deserve some VLO air frames.
By the looks of things, any 5G fighter we choose will be a political decision. Post Op Sindoor and the retirement of MiG-21s, the GoI knows it can't slack off on boosting IAF squadron numbers any more. Public interest in mil affairs has increased.
Putin will pull out all stops to sell Su-57 to India when he visits later this year. I suspect he will offer a 'package deal' including perhaps SSN tech. (Much like the 2001 combo deal for MKI+ Gorshkov + T-90S w/Chakra-2 as the centerpiece. Afaik, at least Gorshkov was tied to Akula and Fulcrum was tied to Gorshkov)
But without peace in Ukraine, Russia will find it hard to meet our delivery timelines)
Trump seems to be using the same 'all or nothing' approach. An F-35 deal might just be the thing that tips the Indo-US trade deal in our favour. (market access in agri and dairy being out of the question + stave off BRICS related sanctions currently in the works).
But let's not forget that Trump defied US arms control policy by clearing the sale of MQ-9B to India in his previous term (with local production and reportedly with consultancy thrown in for DRDOs own MALE drone project)
Also, the US did accommodate some Indian concerns in CISMOA/COMCASA so I'd expect similar exceptions on F-35.
Putin will pull out all stops to sell Su-57 to India when he visits later this year. I suspect he will offer a 'package deal' including perhaps SSN tech. (Much like the 2001 combo deal for MKI+ Gorshkov + T-90S w/Chakra-2 as the centerpiece. Afaik, at least Gorshkov was tied to Akula and Fulcrum was tied to Gorshkov)
But without peace in Ukraine, Russia will find it hard to meet our delivery timelines)
Trump seems to be using the same 'all or nothing' approach. An F-35 deal might just be the thing that tips the Indo-US trade deal in our favour. (market access in agri and dairy being out of the question + stave off BRICS related sanctions currently in the works).
But let's not forget that Trump defied US arms control policy by clearing the sale of MQ-9B to India in his previous term (with local production and reportedly with consultancy thrown in for DRDOs own MALE drone project)
Also, the US did accommodate some Indian concerns in CISMOA/COMCASA so I'd expect similar exceptions on F-35.
An indianised Su-57 will take 2-3 years towards the deal and 5 more years to develop and certify. Meaning its better to wait for AMCA.
Its already agreed upon to buy few squadrons of AMCA mk1. There is no reason to go back on that when all numbers are dwindling.
Correct, Dassault is making all the right moves last few years. Most of the Rafales will be assembled in India.
AMCA MK 1 will be ready for serial production in 2033 , at the earliest
Till that time ,ie 2033 we can have a CUSTOMISED SU 57 With AL 51 and GAN AESA
Now if we can get AL 51
It can be our Bench mark for The New 120 KN engine , for which we will invest 61000 crores
We have already rejected AL 41 when we walked out of FGFA
What do you mean till that time? it will take 2033 just to get first custom Su-57. Same timeframe as AMCA.
AMCA MK 1 will be compared to SU 57 and Rafale F 5 from day 1
And that is where disagreements will begin between IAF and DRDO
By the way we have only contracted For 100 odd 414 engines
And these will be used by MK 2
AMCA MK 2 with 120 KN engine , is what IAF really wants
What are you trying to say here? If we are receiving AMCA at the same time, then why spend over $10 billion on an import? The whole point of importing fifth-generation aircraft is a stopgap solution.
I cannot comment on which 5th gen platform will wiggle itself into the IAF. However, from the perspective of falling squadron strength, I would place a bet on the Rafale being inducted in more nos. These provide an opportunity to keep the squadron strength steady for the next couple of decades.
The more favorable aspects:
1. Availability.
2. Timely delivery.
3. Free from geo-political constraints as it has already been inducted in certain nos.
4. Domestic setup and acceptance by IAF (they seem to be onboard with its performance post OP Sindoor).
So DA fanboys can cheer. It is a good aircraft. If France had a 5th gen. platform, I would place my bet on its procurement.
This is what happens when the planning is poor and the procurement lackadaisical. 2/3 squadrons would have to be 5th generation. Integration (with everything already in play) once again will be a challenge.
Do not expect Putin to wave a wand and India to buy SU-57 (the IAF does not seem very impressed).
I do not know if Tejas Mk2 will see the light of the day. If it can, I would decrease the MRFA by half for 4.5 gen.
The more favorable aspects:
1. Availability.
2. Timely delivery.
3. Free from geo-political constraints as it has already been inducted in certain nos.
4. Domestic setup and acceptance by IAF (they seem to be onboard with its performance post OP Sindoor).
So DA fanboys can cheer. It is a good aircraft. If France had a 5th gen. platform, I would place my bet on its procurement.
This is what happens when the planning is poor and the procurement lackadaisical. 2/3 squadrons would have to be 5th generation. Integration (with everything already in play) once again will be a challenge.
Do not expect Putin to wave a wand and India to buy SU-57 (the IAF does not seem very impressed).
I do not know if Tejas Mk2 will see the light of the day. If it can, I would decrease the MRFA by half for 4.5 gen.
It's supposed to be a stop gap measure . At least that's the news in the media. As such the purchase will be restricted in numbers as far as F-35 goes if we go in for it & as far as the Su-57 goes it makes no sense to mfg it here when it's a WiP to begin with & MKI izing it will take a good 10-15 years apart from resources both men material & money to be thrown at it.
Further if we were to consider the timelines of our expected war against China that's at the end of the decade . The priority is therefore get a readymade platform at the earliest , train , develop tactics & deploy ASAP .
It it isn't possible , don't waste your time & resources , focus on what can be done & attained in that period & do it.
Isolate it from the rest as far as the F-35 goes & use the Rafale as the via media between F-35 & other FAs in our fleet networked into the IACCS & other such network grids.
The Rafales would be using NATO lines of communication & simultaneously can be rigged to communicate with the rest of our fleet thereby effecting co operative targeting something that the PAF has achieved (?).
Of course this is assuming the Rafales themselves are networked into those systems. If not the assumption is we could lean on DA & the French government to co operate. Otherwise wth are the IAF throwing in their lot for more Rafales ?
Irrelevant. We already have air delivery platforms to handle that.
Answered this one above.
Desperate times call for desperate measures. Look I'm not at all in favour of either the F-35 or the Su-57 since both come with their baggage. At the same time I'm unaware if they would be inducted before the decade is out that too in full strength.
Inducting them later in my limited knowledge just doesn't solve the purpose while at the same time spending more time than necessary on negotiations whether price or technical is self defeating .
Can still understand technical discussions especially if it is for the F-35 w.r.t the carve outs we receive & more importantly how do we link it up with our network assuming we can or to the extent possible .
Time is of the essence & the more time we spend on these formalities the less time we get to actually properly induct this FA.
If the product doesn't meet our requirements run down or not , better not to get into it.
Local mfg is the enemy of quick induction besides the equivalent program we're running.
The need of the hour is clarity of thought. What do we need the VLO / LO FA for , in what nos , in what shape , with what exceptions & how fast ? These are the only parameters we ought to consider as of now .
Add any more parameters to it & we risk jeopardizing the entire procurement as it then moves into MRFA / MMRCA territory. We know what that means don't we ?
Stopgap essentially means ,that IAF does not want to be left High and dry if AMCA MK 1 does
Not fulfill their needs
There are so many Technologies yet to be realised
They have seen how long it took to modify MK 1 to MK1A
They will happily take Tejas MK 2 because that is meant to replace Older planes and it is an enlarged MK 1A
But they won't compromise on AMCA since they have to contend with J 35
AMCA MK 2 is the definitive stealth plane that they are looking for with a Newer 120 KN engine
I agree. Hence I said that AMCA become that spear.
You've got to make AMCA at any cost.
But while it is developed, make a potential shield.
Instead if you spend on imported sword that leaves you with less resources for the shield or your own spear... It will be fatal. Given that the imported sword won't be sharp enough ( source code, limited no., dependency) .
Make a sturdy shield. And make and unleash your sword.
P.S. It's no doubt a very hard decision because I don't see any option that is full proof. Any option have tradeoff.. some short term and some long term. It depends on what IAF wants and ready for. To take risk in short term. Or to not and leave future for future.
While China is a threat, pls remember that China is not without its enemies. Neither is pakistan. It's a cold war between China and USA, it is going on ... This is how a cold war looks like. And I don't believe China would want a full hot war near it's borders. India needs pragmatism and great game thinking. You can see it in the Jaishankar way of handling europe.
There no perfect answer. All we can do it speculate while those who have all the details ( GOI, IAF etc) will make the decision.
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