Skardu is not far from LOC. easy target for even Hammer and Mica
Dassault Rafale - Updates and Discussion
- Thread starter Domobran7
- Start date
Why didn't French air force request it?
Plus lack of SEAD capability, you know Russians have one of the densest airdefense networks in the world? And by now I would say surpassed Europe in EW spectrum.
Or is French airforce completely depending on americans to deal with with russian air and ground assets? While it plays only a supporting role?.
And is this true?
It all stems from the level of threat perception. European nations lead a comfortable life when it comes to security. The primary threat, Russia, is 2000km away. They only need a minimum number of platforms with sufficient sophistication. They dont have to individually outmatch the threat. They still need to sell their products. For that, they need to come up with magical marketing terminology like active stealth. To discredit the enormous advantage of the F-35, they say that "fifth generation" is a marketing term invented by Americans.But I was lead to believe that Active Cancellation/ACT can spoof anything & penetrate by itself, evading everything by flying low
Basically, Rafale on SEAD/DEAD will be needing the same kind of kit as what the Germans have planned for the Typhoon EK variant...or what the Americans have had for decades at this point in the form of Prowler/Growler. They still need to get a proper ARM though. Germans are buying AGM88 for the EK but as usual seeking off-the-shelf American solutions is an icky prospect for France due to politics...of course, for the gullible this is beautifully packaged as "Rafale doesn't need an ARM".
Oh well, it just goes to show that Rafale isn't an exception to the pros & cons that go with being a 4th/4.5 gen fighter, it's just within norm. Some OEMs might implement these capabilities sooner, some later...depending on threat environment & who they plan to go up against & by when.
But in the meantime, we mustn't let ourselves be taken in by the PR/cheerleading/fanboyism.
"Rafale doesn't have a standoff jammer" was deflected with "Rafale doesn't need a standoff jammer"
"Rafale doesn't have an ARM" was deflected with "Rafale doesn't need an ARM"
"Rafale doesn't have airframe stealth"...."Rafale doesn't need airframe stealth"....you get the picture.
++++
All that said, it seems the anti-radar munition 'AASF' they've planned for F5 might be too far away (expected by 2035...the biggest war of our time may be well over by that point).
Given that, it would actually be very smart if the French were to work alongside us in implementing the Rudram-I/II as an option for ALL Rafales (not just IAF ones). This is going to take some initiative...not to mention, it's gonna require the French to look at us as not just some client state but one that can potentially help improve the versatility of their platforms.
Will they do that?
View attachment 44542
A jamming pod is contrary to French doctrine, so this is not a request from France but an initiative from Thales, possibly at the request of a foreign customer such as the UAE.
In reality, this is a completely new AASM. The powder propulsion kit has been replaced by a turbojet engine, while the ‘simple’ bomb body has become a hybrid bomb body with a warhead and a fuel tank. I don't know if these two components will be tandem (warhead in front and tank behind) or embedded (a cylindrical tank surrounded by the payload).AASM ‘XLR’ which appear to be externally identical to the current AASM:
The turbojet engine is a brand new development. For now, it will only be available in the AASM250 version, but an AASM1000 version is possible.
As for the fuel, it is carried... in the bomb body!
The turbojet engine is from the Safran Power Units TR/TRI family. The designs are new (notably to reduce costs and enable faster manufacturing), but will largely inherit from previous SPU productions, notably the TRI 40 and TR 50.
It will not have the same maximum thrust as the rocket engine, but it offers new and ‘very interesting’ flight profiles.
In terms of homing, their development is more or less independent of the XLR.
Basically, a multimode homing system (INS/IIR/laser) is currently being tested and will be integrated into the AASM before the arrival of the XLR.
The XLR will therefore be able to be equipped with it natively, but will also be able to integrate an older kit from old stock. In a second phase, the XLR will be equipped with an anti-radar seeker for SEAD missions (currently under study), and a little later with a multimode seeker integrating target self-designation capabilities via AI assistance.
The Rafale F5, the upcoming upgrade of the French Rafale fighter jet, will feature enhanced capabilities with the Meteor air-to-air missile, including a two-way data link. This data link allows for real-time information exchange between the missile and the launch aircraft, enabling mid-course target updates and retargeting if needed.
The Meteor missile itself is a long-range air-to-air missile with a ramjet engine, offering high speed and maneuverability, and is already in service with the Rafale.
Here's a more detailed breakdown:
- Rafale F5 Standard:
The F5 standard represents a significant upgrade for the Rafale, building upon the F4.1 standard. It will include features like conformal fuel tanks and optimization for working with Dassault's Unmanned Combat Air System (UCAS). The F5 will also be cleared for launching two air-launched nuclear weapons.
- Meteor Missile:
The Meteor is a beyond-visual-range air-to-air missile (BVRAAM) known for its long range, high speed, and maneuverability. It uses a unique ramjet engine, allowing it to maintain high speed and energy during its flight, making it difficult for targets to evade.- Mid-course updates: The launch aircraft can update the missile's target information during its flight.
- Retargeting: If the initial target is no longer a threat or a more suitable target appears, the missile can be redirected.
- Real-time status updates: The missile can transmit its functional and kinematic status, and information about target acquisition.
- Mid-course updates: The launch aircraft can update the missile's target information during its flight.
- Operational Significance:
The two-way data link with the Meteor missile enhances the Rafale's ability to engage targets at long ranges and in complex scenarios. It allows for more flexible and effective employment of the missile, making the Rafale a more potent air-to-air platform.
MBDA's mass-produced One Way Effector looks like this:
Range: Approximately 500 km
Payload: Approximately 40 kg
Wingspan: Approximately 3 metres
Cruising speed: Approximately 400 km/h
Guidance: GPS
Propulsion: small turbojet engine
Launch from a ground ramp or vehicle (in salvo)
--> Project financed by MBDA's own funds
--> First demonstration flights expected in the autumn
--> Estimated production time of 18 months after signing a contract
--> Possible production of 1,000 effectors per month
Range: Approximately 500 km
Payload: Approximately 40 kg
Wingspan: Approximately 3 metres
Cruising speed: Approximately 400 km/h
Guidance: GPS
Propulsion: small turbojet engine
Launch from a ground ramp or vehicle (in salvo)
--> Project financed by MBDA's own funds
--> First demonstration flights expected in the autumn
--> Estimated production time of 18 months after signing a contract
--> Possible production of 1,000 effectors per month
What "doctrine" is that? Let US deal with russian defenses and do sead/dead while French airforce do "supporting" role?.
Yes.
Our doctrine for SEAD DEAD is to use AASM for mobile systems and Scalp for infrastucture. People doesn't understand Rafale philosophie: IF you use Long range missile the cost is high and the Pk is low; if you use short range missile it's ok but the risk is high so Rafale is optimise for medium wich imply LO but not VLO complemented by SPECTRA and automatic high speed and low flying , MICA medium range for RF and IR, and AASM for Sead Dead. Meteor is used only for special purpose like AWACS.
So you guys underestimate estimate ground based defense systems a lot and over estimate lo and Spectra of rafale.
Russians are literally preparing their defenses to take on stealth jets, even If they didn't succeed, you seriously think a 4.5 gen jet with 70km range Hammer and no jamming pod will succeed in SEAD without high losses? Spectra can't replace jamming pods, especially more powerful wide area jamming pods.
But I was lead to believe that Active Cancellation/ACT can spoof anything & penetrate by itself, evading everything by flying low
Basically, Rafale on SEAD/DEAD will be needing the same kind of kit as what the Germans have planned for the Typhoon EK variant...or what the Americans have had for decades at this point in the form of Prowler/Growler. They still need to get a proper ARM though. Germans are buying AGM88 for the EK but as usual seeking off-the-shelf American solutions is an icky prospect for France due to politics...of course, for the gullible this is beautifully packaged as "Rafale doesn't need an ARM".
Oh well, it just goes to show that Rafale isn't an exception to the pros & cons that go with being a 4th/4.5 gen fighter, it's just within norm. Some OEMs might implement these capabilities sooner, some later...depending on threat environment & who they plan to go up against & by when.
But in the meantime, we mustn't let ourselves be taken in by the PR/cheerleading/fanboyism.
"Rafale doesn't have a standoff jammer" was deflected with "Rafale doesn't need a standoff jammer"
"Rafale doesn't have an ARM" was deflected with "Rafale doesn't need an ARM"
"Rafale doesn't have airframe stealth"...."Rafale doesn't need airframe stealth"....you get the picture.
++++
All that said, it seems the anti-radar munition 'AASF' they've planned for F5 might be too far away (expected by 2035...the biggest war of our time may be well over by that point).
Given that, it would actually be very smart if the French were to work alongside us in implementing the Rudram-I/II as an option for ALL Rafales (not just IAF ones). This is going to take some initiative...not to mention, it's gonna require the French to look at us as not just some client state but one that can potentially help improve the versatility of their platforms.
Will they do that?
View attachment 44542
Erm... Even stealth jets require standoff jammers. The Americans provide that with Compass Call. They are developing a similar podded one for the F-35 as well.
It's 'cause for certain frequencies (VHF/UHF) and high power requirements (standoff range), onboard systems are insufficient due to size and elecrical power constraints.
For example, VHF/UHF require antenna sizes of 1-10 m versus 3 cm for X band. You can't put quite a bit of that inside a fighter jet. And for high power, you need many antennas. Hence pods. Business jets and medium transports carry larger arrays for this purpose. The IAF is currently pursuing a program for this role, 5+2 EW jets based on A321.
This has nothing to do with self-protection. No clue why people tend to confuse self-protection with standoff jamming. There is nothing stealthy about the latter. The idea behind it is to protect the strike package that's using stealth for penetration.
6th gen jets are supposed to, in theory, remove the need for such a system, 'cause the airframe's designed for stealth in UHF/VHF too. That's where the B-21 and NGAD come in. All lesser jets, Rafale, F-22, F-35 etc, require this pod. The Israelis have developed the Scorpius SJ to support the F-35I.
Typhoon's dedicated EW variant is a very different system. It carries 2 Arexis escort jammers, not 1 standoff jammer. It's supposed to do what the Rafale does with its own inbuilt organic capabilities. The Germans have a program called IuWES where an A-400M or equivalent will be converted into a standoff jammer like USAF's Compass Call and IAF's A321.
Airbus Lifts Lid on A400M Stand Off Jammer Variant - Journal of Electromagnetic Dominance
By Richard Scott Airbus Defence and Space GmbH (Manching, Germany) has unveiled a stand-off jammer (
www.jedonline.com
RudraM will be integrated with Rafale. It's awaiting completion.
Electronic stealth is better than static stealth for several reasons:
- Static stealth requires you to always use the same tactic, which eventually becomes well known to enemies who can counter it.
- Electronics evolve faster than metalwork, and this evolution has been going on for more than 20 years.
- Electronic stealth can be used in all directions, whereas static stealth is only effective in the direction of the signal transmitter. As a result, only electronic stealth can counter multistatic radars.
- Electronic stealth does not come at the expense of the aircraft's other qualities, unlike static stealth.
You asked to extend SPECTRA's functions to the low bands. For me, this concerns signal reception but also jamming.
Ask french air force.... My bet is that Meteor is mainly purchased as a tanker and AWACS killer, not against jets.
The french rules was (is again ???) to positively identify a foe before opening the fire. So MICA is enough because congruent with OSF range.
At the end, it was absolutely marketingly impossible to leave Rafale without a Meteor capacity when Gripen and EF2000 are fitted with.
are Exocet, Harpoon, NSM equipped with 2 way data link ??? ask yourself why.
It's even lesser. 11 km last I heard in the lo profile.
You can see why this was an extremely advanced capability back in the 2000s.