Pakistan AirForce : Updates & Discussions

We need Su-57 MKIs to take on these. IAF is also hopeful that Su-30UPG. with Virupaksha + Gandiva combo shall take down these PAF J-35s.
The vanilla Su-57 won't meet the IAFs requirements to justify a limited purchase and MKI-zation could delay actual deliveries beyond 2030. Look how long it is taking us to finalize the MKI UPG.

That said, the IAF will likely settle for nothing less than a proven 5G fighter in response to PAF getting J-35s. The GoI has its task cut out for it (hard negotiations + some quid pro quo) if it wants the IAF to have the edge in the subcontinent.
 
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The vanilla Su-57 won't meet the IAFs requirements to justify a limited purchase and MKI-zation could delay actual deliveries beyond 2030. Look how long it is taking us to finalize the MKI UPG.
It's the ONLY option for us before 2035-2040, until AMCA matures.
That said, the IAF will likely settle for nothing less than a proven 5G fighter in response to PAF getting J-35s. The GoI has its task cut out for it (hard negotiations + some quid pro quo) if it wants the IAF to have the edge in the subcontinent.
J-35 is not proven either. Su-57's concept is not of a deep-penetrating aircraft designed for DEAD. It will use S-70 Okhotnik-B for that. But it is designed more as a stealth-hunter. A perfect jet to destroy J-20 & J-35.

In my opinion(highly unrealistic. I know!), we should also procure few F-35 squadrons for deep-penetration and as a stealthy SEAD/DEAD platform.

But Su-57 in any form(preferably MKIzed) is good enough to blow PAF/PLAAF VLO fighters out of the sky. Sooner or later, this reality will dawn on everyone. Mark it.
 
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It's the ONLY option for us before 2035-2040, until AMCA matures
Sukhoi's main priority right now is supporting the war effort. Afaik, they haven't announced a launch date for Su-57M or by when the first production batch was expected to achieve IOC with the RuAF.

But Su-57 in any form(preferably MKIzed) is good enough to blow PAF/PLAAF VLO fighters out of the sky. Sooner or later, this reality will dawn on everyone. Mark it.

If recent reports are true, Russia is open to MKIzing Su-57 with Virupaksha, and other ISE mods - down to our own RAM treatments. So we'd essentially be paying top dollar for just the airframe and engines (+fcs and core avionics) while forking out a neat sum for customization.

The overall systems integration will probably be handled by Russia (most probably OKB Ramenskoye - the same co that did MKI customization) which means we'd get no IP. Otoh, they'd be free to repackage and sell the same kit to others.

Unlike the 1990s when Sukhoi almost went bankrupt, Russia is under no pressure to share Su-57 source codes with us. They've made it clear they want to keep the best stuff to themselves (there are exceptions though).

Afaik, back in the 1990s, the choice was between M2000-5 and Su-30. The IAF didn't want the Flanker because it didn't meet its requirements but gave in to politicial pressure (from Mulayam Singh, the then Def Min) and then launched the MKI prog.

Today, we have a choice and I'd rather we choose capability over sentimentality. I agree the Americans are fickle and cannot be trusted but we need to hedge our bets. Strategic leverage works both ways.
 
Sukhoi's main priority right now is supporting the war effort. Afaik, they haven't announced a launch date for Su-57M or by when the first production batch was expected to achieve IOC with the RuAF.
Since they would use MKI's Nashik line, so I don't think there would be too much difficulty.
If recent reports are true, Russia is open to MKIzing Su-57 with Virupaksha, and other ISE mods - down to our own RAM treatments. So we'd essentially be paying top dollar for just the airframe and engines (+fcs and core avionics) while forking out a neat sum for customization.
Something we can not even dream about with F-35. Without these Indian stuff, Su-57 would be a white elephant like F-35.
The overall systems integration will probably be handled by Russia (most probably OKB Ramenskoye - the same co that did MKI customization) which means we'd get no IP. Otoh, they'd be free to repackage and sell the same kit to others.
MKI used stuff from France, Russia, Israel and India. In contrast, UAC just needs to replace all the Russian stuff like radar, IRST, MCs, MAWS etc. with our indigenous ones. The process would be much faster this time around.
Unlike the 1990s when Sukhoi almost went bankrupt, Russia is under no pressure to share Su-57 source codes with us. They've made it clear they want to keep the best stuff to themselves (there are exceptions though).
They're hellbent on selling us the Su-57. You can count on that.
Afaik, back in the 1990s, the choice was between M2000-5 and Su-30. The IAF didn't want the Flanker because it didn't meet its requirements but gave in to politicial pressure (from Mulayam Singh, the then Def Min) and then launched the MKI prog.
IAF absolutely wanted the MKI. So much so that it was dubbed as ACM S. Krishnaswamy's brain-child. Nothing lkke MKI existed before. IAF literally got a twin-seat Su-37 Terminator with even further enhancements. And looking at MKI's real war-time performance in 2019 & 2025, IAF would be thanking their stars for having MKI.
Today, we have a choice and I'd rather we choose capability over sentimentality. I agree the Americans are fickle and cannot be trusted but we need to hedge our bets. Strategic leverage works both ways.
There is a reason why we've avoided US jets. Along with that F-35 isn't an ASF like we discussed before. It's not designed to kill high and fast stealth ASFs. Su-57 is exactly designed for that. AMCA also is designed to kill other VLO jets. IAF isn't sentimental rather very pragmatic.
 
Since they would use MKI's Nashik line, so I don't think there would be too much difficulty.
Don't think it'd be that easy. 5G airframes need finer tolerances and the Western CNC machines required for those are likely under embargo. Will the US make an exception for India? I'm not too sure.

Something we can not even dream about with F-35. Without these Indian stuff, Su-57 would be a white elephant like F-35.
The point is we won't be getting any cutting-edge tech from the Russians for the kind of money we'd be paying. We're probably better off buying Voronezh and Container EW radars as those have a proven track record in Russia service.

MKI used stuff from France, Russia, Israel and India. In contrast, UAC just needs to replace all the Russian stuff like radar, IRST, MCs, MAWS etc. with our indigenous ones. The process would be much faster this time around.
One reason why the MKI UPG is taking so long is Russian insistence on a larger workshare. They've pitched everything from Su-30SM2 to a unified Su-35 standard upgrade for MKI and none have met the IAF specs. After all, this is a cash cow for Sukhoi. Will they agree to make HAL/DRDO prime contractor for the Su-57 MKI? We need to protect our IP like they protect theirs.

They're hellbent on selling us the Su-57. You can count on that.
At this point, they'd sell to anybody with cash- Iran, NoKo included.

IAF absolutely wanted the MKI. So much so that it was dubbed as ACM S. Krishnaswamy's brain-child. Nothing lkke MKI existed before. IAF literally got a twin-seat Su-37 Terminator with even further enhancements. And looking at MKI's real war-time performance in 2019 & 2025, IAF would be thanking their stars for having MKI.
If the IAF had its way, we would've got 124 M2000-5 under MMRCA starting from around 2001. Su-30 was a political decision to bail out Russia. Its because of the IAF tireless efforts that the MKI has become the beast it is today.

There is a reason why we've avoided US jets. Along with that F-35 isn't an ASF like we discussed before. It's not designed to kill high and fast stealth ASFs. Su-57 is exactly designed for that
I agree but modern air combat is about long-range sniping and not getting into close-range knife fights. F-35 gives us the look first, shoot first advantage.
 
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So what happened to mighty Jf 17 & J-10C lol.... Aren't they good enough anymore 😁. Pakistani were having it all easy before recent engagement.... This only show how s**t scared they & their Chinese masters are. Pakistan’s inability to penetrate or challenge Indian airspace without stealth or advanced stand-off capabilities..... The recent shift in tone from confident declarations to desperate interest in stealth tech reflects the hard reality that in a contested environment, flashy acquisitions mean little without survivability and integration. “we wuz kang” bravado churan has met the cold wall of physics and radar equations.
 
The vanilla Su-57 won't meet the IAFs requirements to justify a limited purchase and MKI-zation could delay actual deliveries beyond 2030. Look how long it is taking us to finalize the MKI UPG.

That said, the IAF will likely settle for nothing less than a proven 5G fighter in response to PAF getting J-35s. The GoI has its task cut out for it (hard negotiations + some quid pro quo) if it wants the IAF to have the edge in the subcontinent.
It's the ONLY option for us before 2035-2040, until AMCA matures.

J-35 is not proven either. Su-57's concept is not of a deep-penetrating aircraft designed for DEAD. It will use S-70 Okhotnik-B for that. But it is designed more as a stealth-hunter. A perfect jet to destroy J-20 & J-35.

In my opinion(highly unrealistic. I know!), we should also procure few F-35 squadrons for deep-penetration and as a stealthy SEAD/DEAD platform.

But Su-57 in any form(preferably MKIzed) is good enough to blow PAF/PLAAF VLO fighters out of the sky. Sooner or later, this reality will dawn on everyone. Mark it.
I'm afraid you guys aren't seeing the writing on the wall especially in the aftermath of Operation Sindoor.

There's not going to be any 5th Gen imports coz what's on offer doesn't meet our requirements for one reason or another be it in the quality of the offer - namely whether these systems are mature platforms , the nature of it - what are the benefits to us , the problems of integrating it with our existing systems , costs , ToT , etc.

You could argue that's one reason the IAF having realised so long ago , has resigned itself to supporting desi programs like the AMCA.

Up until 2030 our aim is to get the MK-1a in as many numbers as is possible if not the full complement of 83 nos ( 73 nos if we don't consider the trainers ) & go about supplementing the IACCS thru a combination of indigenous developments ( Surya VHF radar systems , etc) or thru imports primarily from Russia ( Voronezh Early Warning BMD Radars , Container S OTH radar systems , etc ) besides constantly upgrading / fine tuning the system.

Operation Sindoor provided validation if any was needed that they're on the right track not just in terms of the system but the overall governing philosophy behind it. The lessons learnt would be invaluable for no other country including China's had first hand experience of an air war with a near peer competitor .

Apart from these activities the others would be constant monitoring of the Mk-2 , the AMCA , the Ghatak , the KED , the 120 KN JV , the Super Sukhoi , the AWACS , the In Flight Re Fuelers programs etc with a view to prevent delays & expedite the programs to deliver at the earliest.

Except for the AWACS partially & the re Fuelers , all the other programs including the proposed 97 nos additional Mk-1a are scheduled for induction in the 2030s.

The only exceptions are the SBS program ( we'd need much more than the 50 odd planned closer to 100 or 150 vs the Chinese who're said to be planning for ~ 500 + by 2030 . They've already ~ 200 odd satellites in orbit ) & the MRFA program which the IAF has been pushing & the GoI being unresponsive for one reason or another. Not anymore if Pahalgam , our response to it & the kind of collusion we've seen between China & Paxtan are any indications .

How they go about it & to what extent will the IAF / MoD succeed in persuading DA to part with source codes etc remains to be seen but I suspect this can't be achieved without Modi strongly intervening with Macron laying out our future strategic co operation & the mutual benefits to be had.

Left unsaid is that all this would be at stake in case of French intransigence. Having said that Leaderji would have to be generous with the payouts too. Can't expect state of the art technology at the price of peanuts - speciality of our banias.

Up until 2030 those are the aims of the IAF . The only missing link is in a saturated electro magnetic environment like what the LAC & areas 200-400 kms on either sides of it will be , how are we going to counter 5th Gen Stealth platforms with our 4.5 Gen non stealthy ones for an effective IADS with equally effective EW systems aids that side with a stealthy platform not so much a side with a non stealthy platform up against a stealthy platform ?

You answer this & you've solved our greatest conundrum w.r.t the upcoming Sino Indian war.
 
If the IAF had its way, we would've got 124 M2000-5 under MMRCA starting from around 2001. Su-30 was a political decision to bail out Russia. Its because of the IAF tireless efforts that the MKI has become the beast it is today.
Not true. Both were mutually exclusive programs. Have written about it extensively in the past. We were planning a full fledged program with the Mirage 2000s in the 1980s including ToT with HAL building them in significant quantities in India.

Few developments derailed the plan viz the Russians came back with generous offers of the MiG -29 their latest FA to take on the F-16s , co operation in the construction of our own N reactors for the planned SSN / SSBN programs apart from sharing design expertise & project management , sending of the first Indian into space , easy payment terms including rupee payments , easy terms of credit , etc to prevent our drift into the western sphere .

Then of course IG was assassinated & her useless & clueless son took over .

With respect to the Su-30 we were actually interested in the Su-27 but it didn't meet our requirements so the head of the Sukhoi Design Bureau then brought out the Su-30 which up until that point in time was in a concept stage or initial prototype stage & which'd have remained there if not for us .

While the platform itself had plenty of potential , we weren't too enthusiastic about the avionics & sensor package. Turns out the Russians were accomodating of our concerns. They didn't have a choice given their state of affairs then .

One thing led to another & we signed on . Another little mentioned objective was this program was also seen as a stepping stone to partner an accomplished organization in realising a FA which would be customised for our needs. Needless to say the entire experience would be a huge spike in the learning curve of our entire aerospace ecosystem.

The Mirage 2000 program saw a revival later on after the Kargil war where it's performance was exemplary . The objective was a quick G2G deal like what was originally envisaged to mfg them in India thru ToT. However that proposal was torpedoed when the coffin scandal for those martyred in Kargil erupted along with the Tehelka sting operation exposing many in the NDA set up resulting in the resignation of George Fernandes. Though he was subsequently rehabilitated that single vendor proposal was nixed in favour of what later became the MMRCA tender. You know the rest.
 
There's not going to be any 5th Gen imports coz what's on offer doesn't meet our requirements for one reason or another be it in the quality of the offer - namely whether these systems are mature platforms , the nature of it - what are the benefits to us , the problems of integrating it with our existing systems , costs , ToT , etc.
Not buying a stop-gap 5G jet would only invite more provocations like Pahalgam from Pak imo. That's the crux of it - if we had overwhelming military superiority, Pindi would have been more circumspect about their actions.

Assuming they get J-35 in 'the coming months' as a Jane's report recently put it, their window of opportunity (until we get AMCA) would be almost a decade long. No way the IAF is gonna wait that long.

Operation Sindoor provided validation if any was needed that they're on the right track not just in terms of the system but the overall governing philosophy behind it. The lessons learnt would be invaluable for no other country including China's had first hand experience of an air war with a near peer competitor
I'm all for building asymmetric capabilities like anti-stealth radars, passive detection systems, etc. But we cannot hand our enemies the psychological advantage in the interim. The Pakistanis may only get a handful of J-35 to be a major threat but China would be waiting in the wings to try another Doklam.

By the French AFs own admission, Rafale is unable to hold its own against the F-35. Our older jets would be much more vulnerable. Space based sensors can improve situational awareness but the shooters need to be survivable too.

Not true. Both were mutually exclusive programs. Have written about it extensively in the past. We were planning a full fledged program with the Mirage 2000s in the 1980s including ToT with HAL building them in significant quantities in India.
Here's Shiv Aroor for you:

 
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Don't think it'd be that easy. 5G airframes need finer tolerances and the Western CNC machines required for those are likely under embargo. Will the US make an exception for India? I'm not too sure.
Never ever question the ingenuity of both India and Russia. If both are willing then all problems could be sorted, IMO.
The point is we won't be getting any cutting-edge tech from the Russians for the kind of money we'd be paying. We're probably better off buying Voronezh and Container EW radars as those have a proven track record in Russia service.
Combining Russian hardware with Indian stuff always creates magic. Having a 5th gen operational before AMCA would also help us create SOPs for 5th gen aerial warfare. Biggest advantage would be counter of PAF 5th gen.
One reason why the MKI UPG is taking so long is Russian insistence on a larger workshare. They've pitched everything from Su-30SM2 to a unified Su-35 standard upgrade for MKI and none have met the IAF specs. After all, this is a cash cow for Sukhoi.
The biggest reason for delay was lack of AESA radar. IAF didn't want to go for IRBIS-E and Byelka derived AESA still doesn't exist today. Russians can't force us for anything.
Will they agree to make HAL/DRDO prime contractor for the Su-57 MKI? We need to protect our IP like they protect theirs.
Already in the pipeline.
At this point, they'd sell to anybody with cash- Iran, NoKo included.
Our version would be tailored for our need. That's what is vital.
If the IAF had its way, we would've got 124 M2000-5 under MMRCA starting from around 2001. Su-30 was a political decision to bail out Russia. Its because of the IAF tireless efforts that the MKI has become the beast it is today.
Nope. This is all propaganda by anti-Russia lobby. M-2000 was curbed because of USSR pressure for India buying Mig-29s and secondly because of its price. MKI was bought to counter Chinese J-11 fleet. As I said earlier, MKI program was the brainchild of IAF. They were involved right from its inception. Bailing out Sukhoi was just an after result of how awesome the jet turned and how much we ordered along with funding its RnD.
I agree but modern air combat is about long-range sniping and not getting into close-range knife fights. F-35 gives us the look first, shoot first advantage.
Su-57 is also designed to hunt down other VLO jets in BVR not just in WVR. F-35 would give us the advantage but it depends how far US is willing to relent. Su-57 is quite underrated, IMO. The world will see its full might if IAF decide to procure it. Let's see.
 
Not buying a stop-gap 5G jet would only invite more provocations like Pahalgam from Pak imo. That's the crux of it - if we had overwhelming military superiority, Pindi would have been more circumspect about their actions.
When has Fauji Foundation required a reason to target India & simultaneously when have they not miscalculated ?

Leave aside the present instance go back to 2021 & that famous photograph of the then DJ ISI - Faiz Hameed sipping tea in a 5 star hotel in Kabul with the new Lords & Masters in Afghanistan - the Taliban !

Now the entire aim of the Paxtani Punjabi establishment was to keep the Pashtuns on both sides of the Durand Line destabilized which is the reason they started interfering in the internal affairs of Afghanistan in the first place after Mohammed Daoud who'd seized power in coup against his cousin & king Zahir Shah in order to shore up support for himself & his regime declared his government didn't recognize the Durand Line thus setting in motion a chain of events affecting both Afghanistan & Paxtan till date.

All that talk of strategic depth was to misguide the Pashtuns towards channeling their energies taking on India. While it enjoyed great success in its initial years especially once the insurgency broke out in Kashmir where the biggest component of the foreign terrorists were Afghans / Pashtuns from both sides of the Durand Line - veterans of the Afghan war like all good things it's came to an end .

Pashtuns have seen through the game & while the civil society in KPK has been battling for civil rights to be upheld besides opposing Fauji Foundation from supporting various tanzeems engaged in promoting terror there, organisations like the TTP are demanding a full Sharia'h compliant state to now quasi independence if not full independence.

Fauji Foundation will be there to prosecute their agenda of death by 1000 cuts as long as they're in existence which means even if the Paxtani state doesn't exist tomorrow remnants of Fauji Foundation & Pak Nationalists all believers in Do Qaumi Nazaria will be at it.

After all Paxtan is at the end of the day a state of the mind before it was realised on the ground & will continue being so long after it has ceased being a state.
Assuming they get J-35 in 'the coming months' as a Jane's report recently put it, their window of opportunity (until we get AMCA) would be almost a decade long. No way the IAF is gonna wait that long.
If the IAF didn't lose their sleep over the J-20s concluding that the IACCS apart from the Rafales along with the upgraded Su-30 MKI & other supporting elements like the upcoming Rocket Force was enough to sort out the PLAAF, I don't think they'd be reconsidering their decision if PAF got the J-35 / FC -31.

If anything it should speed up the procurement process of the MRFA.
I'm all for building asymmetric capabilities like anti-stealth radars, passive detection systems, etc. But we cannot hand our enemies the psychological advantage in the interim. The Pakistanis may only get a handful of J-35 to be a major threat but China would be waiting in the wings to try another Doklam.
As I've pointed out before China's planned upgradation / modernization cum theaterization would be through in 2027-28. Whatever we're to expect will be post that date.

Secondly I've also theorised why a two front war will turn Nuclear from our perspective. All we need to do is tweak the NFU & you will see how Fauji Foundation reacts. For all their claims about them being ghazis & waging ghazwa e hind just that tweak will make them justify their brown camouflage.

I'd also venture we're heading towards exactly such a scenario. We haven't called off Operation Sindoor. I suspect either we're expecting more mischief from Fauji Foundation or for once we're going to be pro active & launch pre emptive attacks on them destroying their war fighting machinery in the form of PAF & PN assets.

We'd know exactly how things pan out by this time next year .

By the French AFs own admission, Rafale is unable to hold its own against the F-35. Our older jets would be much more vulnerable. Space based sensors can improve situational awareness but the shooters need to be survivable too.

We're not going up against the F-35, are we?

The problem with the Su-57 is unless the Russians certify it FOC with the Item 30 TF & other upgrades I don't think the IAF would be interested in it & this is assuming we go in for outright purchase of 2-3 squadrons on an as is basis which is to say no monkey models.

If the objective is MKI ization that's a time & resource consuming process which would take us a good 10-15 years, luxury we lack for time is of essence. You already know why the F-35 doesn't fit into our plans . So in the light of this information tell me where's the scope to induct a 5th Gen platform from what's available to us?
Here's Shiv Aroor for you:

Aroor is conflating a lot of things including relying on that midwit & presstitute Kutta. While the deal was signed in Deve Gowda's tenure where Mulayamwa was the RM, it was finalised in toto during the reign of PVNR.

In fact the incident Aroor's alluding to where we made advance payments even before a contract was inked got PVNR in a spot of trouble.

News leaked to the opposition & ABV was about to raise it in Parliament when PVNR intervened & informed ABV that he did what he did as a favor to Yeltsin coz the latter personally requested him for funds as there was literally no money to pay salaries to their entire aerospace ecosystem.

There's another interesting tid bit of information nobody mentions today namely the monies we owed Russia on account of purchases of a lot of stuff from the USSR. After its collapse & the financial turmoil in Russia, the rouble collapsed.

India actually signed an agreement with Russia pegging the rouble to the USD at a far higher rate than what was the market rate. If I'm not mistaken this was during PVNR's era or the agreement could've been signed during Deve Gowda's tenure with the agreement having been finalised during PVNR's reign.

The catch was we wouldn't pay them up front. We'd do so in installments plus we'd have access to their state of the art arms. That's how the Brahmos, MKI, Kundankoolam N reactors, Russian collaboration in INS Arihant etc came about.

There were other considerations as well like the fact the Chinese were getting access to a lot of state of the art Russian arms like they signed on to mfg the Su-27 with full ToT which resulted in the J-11 & them reverse engineering the AL-31 TF & so on which considerably soured relations between the 2 for years afterwards.

All this can be verified on the net provided you know where to look . This is countless hours spent as a college student in the early 2000s over totally unreliable Internet connections courtesy VSNL going thru Rediff, BRF, Readers Digest & other archives online talking .
 
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When has Fauji Foundation required a reason to target India & simultaneously when have they not miscalculated ?

Leave aside the present instance go back to 2021 & that famous photograph of the then DJ ISI - Faiz Hameed sipping tea in a 5 star hotel in Kabul with the new Lords & Masters in Afghanistan - the Taliban !

Now the entire aim of the Paxtani Punjabi establishment was to keep the Pashtuns on both sides of the Durand Line destabilized which is the reason they started interfering in the internal affairs of Afghanistan in the first place after Mohammed Daoud who'd seized power in coup against his cousin & king Zahir Shah in order to shore up support for himself & his regime declared his government didn't recognize the Durand Line thus setting in motion a chain of events affecting both Afghanistan & Paxtan till date.

All that talk of strategic depth was to misguide the Pashtuns towards channeling their energies taking on India. While it enjoyed great success in its initial years especially once the insurgency broke out in Kashmir where the biggest component of the foreign terrorists were Afghans / Pashtuns from both sides of the Durand Line - veterans of the Afghan war like all good things it's came to an end .

Pashtuns have seen through the game & while the civil society in KPK has been battling for civil rights to be upheld besides opposing Fauji Foundation from supporting various tanzeems engaged in promoting terror there, organisations like the TTP are demanding a full Sharia'h compliant state to now quasi independence if not full independence.

Fauji Foundation will be there to prosecute their agenda of death by 1000 cuts as long as they're in existence which means even if the Paxtani state doesn't exist tomorrow remnants of Fauji Foundation & Pak Nationalists all believers in Do Qaumi Nazaria will be at it.

After all Paxtan is at the end of the day a state of the mind before it was realised on the ground & will continue being so long after it has ceased being a state.

If the IAF didn't lose their sleep over the J-20s concluding that the IACCS apart from the Rafales along with the upgraded Su-30 MKI & other supporting elements like the upcoming Rocket Force was enough to sort out the PLAAF, I don't think they'd be reconsidering their decision if PAF got the J-35 / FC -31.

If anything it should speed up the procurement process of the MRFA.

As I've pointed out before China's planned upgradation / modernization cum theaterization would be through in 2027-28. Whatever we're to expect will be post that date.

Secondly I've also theorised why a two front war will turn Nuclear from our perspective. All we need to do is tweak the NFU & you will see how Fauji Foundation reacts. For all their claims about them being ghazis & waging ghazwa e hind just that tweak will make them justify their brown camouflage.

I'd also venture we're heading towards exactly such a scenario. We haven't called off Operation Sindoor. I suspect either we're expecting more mischief from Fauji Foundation or for once we're going to be pro active & launch pre emptive attacks on them destroying their war fighting machinery in the form of PAF & PN assets.

We'd know exactly how things pan out by this time next year .



We're not going up against the F-35, are we?

The problem with the Su-57 is unless the Russians certify it FOC with the Item 30 TF & other upgrades I don't think the IAF would be interested in it & this is assuming we go in for outright purchase of 2-3 squadrons on an as is basis which is to say no monkey models.

If the objective is MKI ization that's a time & resource consuming process which would take us a good 10-15 years, luxury we lack for time is of essence. You already know why the F-35 doesn't fit into our plans . So in the light of this information tell me where's the scope to induct a 5th Gen platform from what's available to us?

Aroor is conflating a lot of things including relying on that midwit & presstitute Kutta. While the deal was signed in Deve Gowda's tenure where Mulayamwa was the RM, it was finalised in toto during the reign of PVNR.

In fact the incident Aroor's alluding to where we made advance payments even before a contract was inked got PVNR in a spot of trouble.

News leaked to the opposition & ABV was about to raise it in Parliament when PVNR intervened & informed ABV that he did what he did as a favor to Yeltsin coz the latter personally requested him for funds as there was literally no money to pay salaries to their entire aerospace ecosystem.

There's another interesting tid bit of information nobody mentions today namely the monies we owed Russia on account of purchases of a lot of stuff from the USSR. After its collapse & the financial turmoil in Russia, the rouble collapsed.

India actually signed an agreement with Russia pegging the rouble to the USD at a far higher rate than what was the market rate. If I'm not mistaken this was during PVNR's era or the agreement could've been signed during Deve Gowda's tenure with the agreement having been finalised during PVNR's reign.

The catch was we wouldn't pay them up front. We'd do so in installments plus we'd have access to their state of the art arms. That's how the Brahmos, MKI, Kundankoolam N reactors, Russian collaboration in INS Arihant etc came about.

There were other considerations as well like the fact the Chinese were getting access to a lot of state of the art Russian arms like they signed on to mfg the Su-27 with full ToT which resulted in the J-11 & them reverse engineering the AL-31 TF & so on which considerably soured relations between the 2 for years afterwards.

All this can be verified on the net provided you know where to look . This is countless hours spent as a college student in the early 2000s over totally unreliable Internet connections courtesy VSNL going thru Rediff, BRF, Readers Digest & other archives online talking .
Excellent post👍. I am really confused where this M-2000 vs MKI is coming from? M-2000 vs Mig-29 in the 1980s is a well-known stuff. But MKI? MKI was IAF's foray into procuring an absolute exquisite Air-Dominance Platform. And looking at its combat success in back to back conflicts, they'd be proud of what they achieved. Plus, they didn't order 272 units of it in a fluke. The above huge order of the MKIs over the years by IAF themselves completely discards the theory that MKI was forced on to them just to bail out Russian Sukhoi Corporation, lol.

MKI was also one program where Congress, BJP and the Third-Front were in complete sync. This is how matters of national interest needs to be dealt with and not how the current 50+ years Young leader conducts himself, IMO.
 
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When has Fauji Foundation required a reason to target India & simultaneously when have they not miscalculated ?
The Afghans have learned their lesson the hard way (as Amrullah Saleh puts it) and it appears so have we. If we want to keep the Pak-China combine at bay, conventional deterrence must be maintained. A short skirmish every couple of years isn't going to help our cause.

At things stand, we're hopelessly outclassed against the PLA and at peer level with Pak. A stop gap purchase of 5G ac will give us some semblance of parity until AMCA comes online.

If the IAF didn't lose their sleep over the J-20s concluding that the IACCS apart from the Rafales along with the upgraded Su-30 MKI & other supporting elements like the upcoming Rocket Force was enough to sort out the PLAAF, I don't think they'd be reconsidering their decision if PAF got the J-35 / FC -31.

If anything it should speed up the procurement process of the MRFA.
We can't be complacent when we have no allies that'd directly support us. The newer J-20B is far more potent than the baseline version. As members here have pointed out before, the jet we detected over Tibet was probably flying with a Luneberg lens.

As I've pointed out before China's planned upgradation / modernization cum theaterization would be through in 2027-28. Whatever we're to expect will be post that date.

Secondly I've also theorised why a two front war will turn Nuclear from our perspective. All we need to do is tweak the NFU & you will see how Fauji Foundation reacts. For all their claims about them being ghazis & waging ghazwa e hind just that tweak will make them justify their brown camouflage.

I'd also venture we're heading towards exactly such a scenario. We haven't called off Operation Sindoor. I suspect either we're expecting more mischief from Fauji Foundation or for once we're going to be pro active & launch pre emptive attacks on them destroying their war fighting machinery in the form of PAF & PN assets.
Pak reportedly launched a n-capable MRBM at Delhi recently and we didn't respond in kind. This shows that our N-threshold is low. Against China, we need to deploy a launch on warning system (with the controls in the hands of the military) like the US and Russia do. That alone would ensure true deterrence.

If the objective is MKI ization that's a time & resource consuming process which would take us a good 10-15 years, luxury we lack for time is of essence. You already know why the F-35 doesn't fit into our plans . So in the light of this information tell me where's the scope to induct a 5th Gen platform from what's available to us?
We need to expedite AMCA by following the Korean model imo. Get the damn thing off the ground with imported avionics and systems wherever needed while indigenous tech matures. F-35 would help us benchmark against the best in the business. Plus it would hold the line until the cavalry arrived.

Aroor is conflating a lot of things including relying on that midwit & presstitute Kutta. While the deal was signed in Deve Gowda's tenure where Mulayamwa was the RM, it was finalised in toto during the reign of PVNR.

In fact the incident Aroor's alluding to where we made advance payments even before a contract was inked got PVNR in a spot of trouble.

News leaked to the opposition & ABV was about to raise it in Parliament when PVNR intervened & informed ABV that he did what he did as a favor to Yeltsin coz the latter personally requested him for funds as there was literally no money to pay salaries to their entire aerospace ecosystem.

There's another interesting tid bit of information nobody mentions today namely the monies we owed Russia on account of purchases of a lot of stuff from the USSR. After its collapse & the financial turmoil in Russia, the rouble collapsed.

India actually signed an agreement with Russia pegging the rouble to the USD at a far higher rate than what was the market rate. If I'm not mistaken this was during PVNR's era or the agreement could've been signed during Deve Gowda's tenure with the agreement having been finalised during PVNR's reign.

The catch was we wouldn't pay them up front. We'd do so in installments plus we'd have access to their state of the art arms. That's how the Brahmos, MKI, Kundankoolam N reactors, Russian collaboration in INS Arihant etc came about.

There were other considerations as well like the fact the Chinese were getting access to a lot of state of the art Russian arms like they signed on to mfg the Su-27 with full ToT which resulted in the J-11 & them reverse engineering the AL-31 TF & so on which considerably soured relations between the 2 for years afterwards.

All this can be verified on the net provided you know where to look . This is countless hours spent as a college student in the early 2000s over totally unreliable Internet connections courtesy VSNL going thru Rediff, BRF, Readers Digest & other archives online talking .
No doubt strategic considerations were at play, otherwise, there wouldn't have been such a broad consensus across party lines. But the fact remains that the IAF was largely configured as 'flying artillery' in the 1990s. Back then, the PLAAF mostly flew Fishbed knockoffs and didn't figure in our strategic calculus. We were focused entirely on Pak. Su-30MK literally forced the IAF to update its doctrine and pivot towards the strategic application of air power.
 
Ghass khayenge lekin atom bomb banayenge, Janab. What a retarded nation🤦‍♂️. They will never let us live in peace. History has proven that whenever they have supposedly got a wonder/superior weapon than ours, they try to attack us. They will again try to attack us, this way or that, post J-35's acquisition.

PS: A kangal country having 5th gen fighters when world's 4th largest air-force will need to wait for at least 10 years before having theirs' is just not acceptable. Time for IAF to wake up and smell the coffee.
 
Ghass khayenge lekin atom bomb banayenge, Janab. What a retarded nation🤦‍♂️. They will never let us live in peace. History has proven that whenever they have supposedly got a wonder/superior weapon than ours, they try to attack us. They will again try to attack us, this way or that, post J-35's acquisition.

PS: A kangal country having 5th gen fighters when world's 4th largest air-force will need to wait for at least 10 years before having theirs' is just not acceptable. Time for IAF to wake up and smell the coffee.
Likely financed by China via a long term loan. As they do with CPEC projects, these will likely be maintained by Chinese personnel at Pak airbases. China clearly wants more real-world exposure for its hardware while Pak gets to claim equal-equal vs India. But if the PL-15 duds we've recovered are any indication, China could end up exposing a lot more than it bargained for.
 
Ghass khayenge lekin atom bomb banayenge, Janab. What a retarded nation🤦‍♂️. They will never let us live in peace. History has proven that whenever they have supposedly got a wonder/superior weapon than ours, they try to attack us. They will again try to attack us, this way or that, post J-35's acquisition.

PS: A kangal country having 5th gen fighters when world's 4th largest air-force will need to wait for at least 10 years before having theirs' is just not acceptable. Time for IAF to wake up and smell the coffee.
It's actually time the gloves come off vis a vis China. If after all that has transpired from them transferring NW tech to delivery platforms like BMs , CMs , FAs , etc to introducing them to DPRK to provide plausible deniability to now during Operation Sindoor where they've openly assisted the Paxtanis by providing them space based ISR , it's time we convey to the Chinese if they went ahead with this move we'd reciprocate with arming Taiwan with the Brahmos & other arms & armaments.

I saw a report which stated that nearly 75% of the systems used across armed forces in Paxtan originate in China.

If in spite of our warning they go ahead we should live up to our threats. What's the worst that China can do which they haven't already attempted either via Paxtan or directly ?

The more we appear diffident to their vile machinations the more they're encouraged to continue with this maverick behaviour.
 
So.china is inducting both the j35 two squadrons and hq19 to boot

My question is what now
Half baked sub par su57 semi stealth only production rate delivery is an issue
Or
F35 super quick delivery but compromising issues in war and even out of war ..kill switches etc more importantly how do we I integrate USA system.with Akashteer and s400 and Navic satalites IACC
 
The Afghans have learned their lesson the hard way (as Amrullah Saleh puts it) and it appears so have we. If we want to keep the Pak-China combine at bay, conventional deterrence must be maintained. A short skirmish every couple of years isn't going to help our cause.
They've learnt nothing . The Pashtuns are just pissed off massively with Paxtan for using them like condoms during the 2 decades they were sheltering there while waging their campaign against the US.

Whenever they fell out of line the ISI would crack the whip by imprisoning them . Whenever the US demanded they either provided the former with a prisoner or targeting data to execute drone strikes.

There are down sides to hunting with the hounds & running with the hare. If you don't get your act right & know when to quit & how you end up with short term gains & long term damages.

Speaking of long term the most natural allies of the Punjabi Musalman establishment are the non Pashtun Afghans & our natural allies are the Pashtuns against the Punjabi Musalman establishment.

Of course with us it's always short term as there can never be peace between the Abrahamic faiths & the pagans especially if Islam is the Abrahamic faith in question.

Moreover the Pashtuns have never quite forgotten the lands they've lost in KPK FATA or the fact that they've ruled over the Indian sub continent beginning with Paxtani Punjab. They actually consider Paxtan to be an artificial construct much more than us & believe they're the rightful owners of that land & that it's they who must border India.

For all their absolute victory in Afghanistan they still haven't reconciled the various non Pashtun ethnicities there nor will they . That's the average mentality of the Pashtuns for you .
At things stand, we're hopelessly outclassed against the PLA and at peer level with Pak.

A stop gap purchase of 5G ac will give us some semblance of parity until AMCA comes online.
That's what I asked you what do you propose after detailing the argument on the reasons I think it's impossible for us going in with a 5th Gen import ?
We can't be complacent when we have no allies that'd directly support us. The newer J-20B is far more potent than the baseline version. As members here have pointed out before, the jet we detected over Tibet was probably flying with a Luneberg lens.
Maybe so but the IAF believes it has this covered. Do you actually see any movement on procurement of the 5th Gen FA ? You're seeing action on the MMRCA 2.0 / MRFA or whatever terminology you choose now . And this has been the case for a long time .

Apart from occasional chatter about the 5th Gen import say from the Parliamentary Standing Committee on Defence or some commentator here & there usually an ex service personnel about the 5th Gen import what exactly are you hearing or seeing from the powers that be on the issue ? Shouldn't that be clue enough for where things are headed ?


Pak reportedly launched a n-capable MRBM at Delhi recently and we didn't respond in kind. This shows that our N-threshold is low.
The threshold is high you mean. Our response was attacking the various C&C centres located at their AFBs & striking their NW storage facilities at Kirana Hills . News is now emerging of similar action at Peshawar another storage or C&C centre . Waiting for news to emerge from Chagai Hills in Balochistan. And this was disclosed by the Paxtanis not by our sources leave aside the IAF.

Against China, we need to deploy a launch on warning system (with the controls in the hands of the military) like the US and Russia do. That alone would ensure true deterrence.
Our security establishment still labours under the impression there would be no war with China given there's literally nothing of value over the lands we're fighting to being convinced if things do go south it'd be confined to the LAC. Hence deterrence by denial , literally so . Pun unintended. Not deterrence by capabilities & capacities.

We need to expedite AMCA by following the Korean model imo. Get the damn thing off the ground with imported avionics and systems wherever needed while indigenous tech matures. F-35 would help us benchmark against the best in the business. Plus it would hold the line until the cavalry arrived.
Doesn't make any difference to our present situation. Of course having said that let me clarify my position. I'm of the opinion that whatever has to unfold between China & India will happen between 2030-32 give or take. This time 2035 the worst would be over vis a vis China , one way or another.

Whether the AMCA is delayed by 5 or 10 years after that won't make any difference for we'd be in a very different world with a radically different world order.
No doubt strategic considerations were at play, otherwise, there wouldn't have been such a broad consensus across party lines. But the fact remains that the IAF was largely configured as 'flying artillery' in the 1990s. Back then, the PLAAF mostly flew Fishbed knockoffs and didn't figure in our strategic calculus.

We were focused entirely on Pak. Su-30MK literally forced the IAF to update its doctrine and pivot towards the strategic application of air power.
Perhaps there was recognition the PLA was changing & we could face problems in the future. After all the Chinese process of military reformation began way back in 1989-90 under Deng following the Tiananmen Square Massacre where they significantly downsized the PLA trimming it by 1-2 million recruits in a matter of a couple of years.

They signed the deal for the Su-27 before we did. Further the Russians who were down on their luck after initially romancing the west quickly realised where their interests were best served & what would interest their potential friends & clientele which was namely their advanced weapons .

They could've potentially sounded out our leadership about a once in a lifetime offer pointing out to the Chinese & whispering they saved the best for us. That's how the ball could've been set rolling.

Let's give our guys in the security establishment some credit including the much abused babooos & dhotis even though they richly deserve it . They aren't absolute dummies even if they behave so many a times.
 
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Our strategy against PLAAF is deterrence whilst against Pakistan it is dominance. So while we may have overlooked J-20s thinking that Rafale was enough, there ain't no way in this whole world we're going to overlook Pakistan getting 5th gen fighters before us. Our gov. & IAF both very explicity understand the implications of J-35 + PL-17 in our Western front.

Let first J-35 land in Pak and all theories about Su-57 being crap, half-baked, not tested etc. shall completely go out of the window and then both GOI & IAF would realize our biggest blunder of dropping out from FGFA project and then you shall soon see Su-57 with an unprecedented deal with us owning its full TOT along with modification rights and even its IP.


To all: "Just mark this post".