Air Engagement of Operation Sindoor : Analysis

[RationalGuy]

They eventually plan for around 1000 J-20s, putting 250 no.s in each theatre. So we are not looking at just facing 15-20, rather 250 in due time.

F-35 is a wonderful jet(all the banter aside) and I would have loved for IAF to operate few squadrons of it. Infact, I had a long standing dream about IN operating F-35B's since one of my favourite jets is Sea-Harrier and I absolutely love VTOL jets.

But the way these Americans are behaving, we absolutely need to stay clear of their high-end military ware. Trump once again said yesterday that he stopped Indo-Pak war due to his trade pressure. If they could pressurize us with their trade deal, just think about what they'll do with their high-end military jets if we ever procure them.

Longer range, broadband all-spectrum(from VHF to Ka band), all-aspect(from any side/angle) stealth along with carrying multiple 300-500kms PL-17s inside them. It could carry even supersonic cruise missiles internally thanks to its magazine depth. It's also designed as stealthy AEW&C in heavily contested battlespace.

Both J-36 & J-XDS/50 are serious threat to both India & US. The latter has an answer in form of F-47 & F/A-XX with Super F-22, F-35 Block-4 & maybe even F-55 in future. We, on the other hand, don't have any reply at the moment. IAF has never fretted J-20 or J-35. But J-36 & J-50 is bound to raise some eyebrows here too.

We need Netra AWACS ASAP along with more 4.5 GEN

They eventually plan for around 1000 J-20s, putting 250 no.s in each theatre. So we are not looking at just facing 15-20, rather 250 in due time.

F-35 is a wonderful jet(all the banter aside) and I would have loved for IAF to operate few squadrons of it. Infact, I had a long standing dream about IN operating F-35B's since one of my favourite jets is Sea-Harrier and I absolutely love VTOL jets.

But the way these Americans are behaving, we absolutely need to stay clear of their high-end military ware. Trump once again said yesterday that he stopped Indo-Pak war due to his trade pressure. If they could pressurize us with their trade deal, just think about what they'll do with their high-end military jets if we ever procure them.

Longer range, broadband all-spectrum(from VHF to Ka band), all-aspect(from any side/angle) stealth along with carrying multiple 300-500kms PL-17s inside them. It could carry even supersonic cruise missiles internally thanks to its magazine depth. It's also designed as stealthy AEW&C in heavily contested battlespace.

Both J-36 & J-XDS/50 are serious threat to both India & US. The latter has an answer in form of F-47 & F/A-XX with Super F-22, F-35 Block-4 & maybe even F-55 in future. We, on the other hand, don't have any reply at the moment. IAF has never fretted J-20 or J-35. But J-36 & J-50 is bound to raise some eyebrows here too.

BTW J36 is actually a tremendous threat like life or death threat to India imo. It has over 2,500 km range iirc which means they can launch it from airbases in Xinjiang and it will have the capability to penetrate our AD and bomb New Delhi even. Now imagine if those bombs can be replaced by nuclear weapons? Quite frankly our air power has lagged behind dangerously and tbh I don't see any way out. AMCA when it comes will have outdated stealth and 4th gen engines. By then I'm quite sure Chinese would fit at least their 5th gen engines on J36. I really don't see how we can counter this and its quite frightening. J36 will apparently even have a 5,000 TRM module GaN radar and Ching chongs may even make it GaN on diamond by 2035 when AMCA enters service. How do we defeat this threat? Can we defeat this threat?

 

[Rajput Lion]

We need Netra AWACS ASAP along with more 4.5 GEN

I hope along with Netra series AEW&C, we'll procure some 360° covering AWACS(like Phalcon) in future too. We are preparing to send satellites in space to do AMTI/AMTT, but still AWACS/AEW&C should not be neglected.

Regarding 4.5 gen, well within next 10 years, we'll have close to 200 MK1As, over 120 MK2s, hopefully Rafale F4(2-3 squadrons gov-to-gov deal) and 114 Rafale F5(MRFA). These will be all-new 4.5 gen jets. That is enough me thinks. Time for us to seriously think about 5th & 6th gen jets.

AMCA would get IOC around 2035 while we have already begun our primary research for our AHCA aka Su-30MKI replacement. But that would come online only in late 2040s or early 2050s. So, we need to import a 5th gen fighter before 2035 otherwise we won't have any direct counter to PLAAF & PAF's current/future VLO threat.

We have ONLY two options:

1. F-35
2. Su-57

The first is ruled out because: 1. It's American. 2. It's not an ASF. So it won't counter J-20 and likes.

That leaves only the second as our only viable option "if" we ever go through import route again. Now everyone knows that Su-57 isn't a mature jet or how Russian avionics trail the Chinese or even our own. So, what should we do? Simple option is to integrate our own stuff on Su-57 airframe and produce it in Nasik. If we show promptness, we'll have it in decent numbers by the end of this decade.

If we don't import, then we have no other option but to expedite AMCA. Period.

BTW J36 is actually a tremendous threat like life or death threat to India imo. It has over 2,500 km range iirc which means they can launch it from airbases in Xinjiang and it will have the capability to penetrate our AD and bomb New Delhi even. Now imagine if those bombs can be replaced by nuclear weapons? Quite frankly our air power has lagged behind dangerously and tbh I don't see any way out. AMCA when it comes will have outdated stealth and 4th gen engines. By then I'm quite sure Chinese would fit at least their 5th gen engines on J36. I really don't see how we can counter this and its quite frightening. J36 will apparently even have a 5,000 TRM module GaN radar and Ching chongs may even make it GaN on diamond by 2035 when AMCA enters service. How do we defeat this threat? Can we defeat this threat?

Yes, we can! With our IADS. It'll need some tuning but we'll get it. We will need our 6th gen AHCA to counter it too.

 

[RationalGuy]

Yes, we can! With our IADS. It'll need some tuning but we'll get it. We will need our 6th gen AHCA to counter it too.

AHCA first flight is not coming before 2045 realistically meaning full scale induction in 2050s. By when we can expect at least 300-400 J36s and even more J50. We must expedite and catch up like China caught up to USAF. Its a do or die situation for us. We cannot be complacent anymore. If gov is serious at all, they need to expedite AMCA first flight to early or mid 2027, IOC to 2030 and mass production by 2033. AHCA first flight should be 2038/2039 and mass production by 2045. Then we have a chance to defeat the dragon. Or else quite frankly I see a successful Chinese takeover of Arunachal by 2040 and possibly a combined assault by the P0rks as well. Idt we are gonna fare well in such a scenario with current timeline of AMCA.

 

[HariPrasad]

F-35 or any high-end US jet is a cancer that we as a nation need to avoid. Americans have been our biggest covert(sometimes overt) enemy since 1947. They even eliminated several of our scientists because they didn't want India to become a global power. Our recent force projection against their puppy has shocked both Sam & Han. We need to be very careful dealing with them from now onwards.

Import wise, 2-3 squadrons of Rafale F4, 114 Rafale F5 and Su-57 in some customized form is all that we need. Rest our Tejas MK2, MKI UPG. & AMCA are good enough for both fronts.

Very true. US has foolishly tried to spoil relations with India. They already have bad relations with Second and third most powerful countries named Russia and China. It was wise on part of US to improve the relations with India and even Russia. US is unnecessarily try to mess with many good nation. India is becoming powerful and by 2032, Indian economy will be about 10 Tr USD with lots of skilled manpower and young population. Their short sightedness has made US a power with not much influence in Asia.

 

[HariPrasad]

Also unlikely PLAAF can stations more than 15-20 J20 in Tibet. 5th gen jets require specialized hangars to keep their RAM coating from degrading iirc and building and maintaining such infrastructure at Tibet is difficult to say the least not to mention always at risk from Scalp and Brahmos.

Why stop there please go ahead and give Pak F35s lol. More targets for Balochis to destroy while its still on the ground.


J36 is bigger threat due to longer range.

In addition, one more issue China will face will be taking off from high airbases limiting its MTOW and as a result payload. GAN based radar will improve detection and, in all probability, shall see stealth from long distance.

 

[Rajput Lion]

AHCA first flight is not coming before 2045 realistically meaning full scale induction in 2050s. By when we can expect at least 300-400 J36s and even more J50.

We just have to accept that the Chinese are ahead of us in military modernisation.

We must expedite and catch up like China caught up to USAF. Its a do or die situation for us. We cannot be complacent anymore.

We're not but sabre-rattling won't solve any issues for us.

If gov is serious at all, they need to expedite AMCA first flight to early or mid 2027, IOC to 2030 and mass production by 2033.

With GE414, AMCA won't be a real 5th gen fighter. We need the JV 110/120KN engine(probably VCE) for AMCA to be fully battle-effective. Impossible before 2035 at the best, IMO.

AHCA first flight should be 2038/2039 and mass production by 2045.

If our VCE engine is ready by then, we could achieve this.

Then we have a chance to defeat the dragon. Or else quite frankly I see a successful Chinese takeover of Arunachal by 2040 and possibly a combined assault by the P0rks as well. Idt we are gonna fare well in such a scenario with current timeline of AMCA.

PLA can't defeat IA. Just not possible. IAF's role would be to deter PLAAF while IA pounds their ladyboys. The next Indo-China war will result in the freedom of Tibet. Just one or two shiny toys don't win the wars. Look what we did to Patton tanks and F-86 Sabres in 1965. War is won by the valour of your troops with ingenuity in combat tactics. Trust your armed forces. They are the best.

 

[Rajput Lion]

Very true. US has foolishly tried to spoil relations with India. They already have bad relations with Second and third most powerful countries named Russia and China. It was wise on part of US to improve the relations with India and even Russia. US is unnecessarily try to mess with many good nation. India is becoming powerful and by 2032, Indian economy will be about 10 Tr USD with lots of skilled manpower and young population. Their short sightedness has made US a power with not much influence in Asia.

Trump literally spit in our current administration's face by openely claiming that he used trade threats to bring about a cease-fire. Anyone who knows Modi, will know that he won't forgive Trump or US for that. Period.

In addition, one more issue China will face will be taking off from high airbases limiting its MTOW and as a result payload. GAN based radar will improve detection and, in all probability, shall see stealth from long distance.

GaN isn't just a panacea for everything. Defeating J-36 and J-50 would involve designing our own kill-chain to thwart their incursions in our territory. That will involve all our assets from space/air/water/ground/cyber to form a comprehensive battlespace picture. Once we do that, we would be able to counter any VLO threat.

 

[YoungWolf]

PLA can't defeat IA. Just not possible. IAF's role would be to deter PLAAF while IA pounds their ladyboys.

In all of this, you forgot our ace in the hole against China: the Indian Navy. The Chinese jugular, i.e., Malacca Strait (where 80% of China's oil & gas trade and 65% of overall trade passes through) is well within our reach, and we've enough firepower to make them bleed economically. Despite PLAN's impressive fleet, they can't deploy and fight that far away from their home. Bypassing that was the reason behind their investments in BRI & CPEC. The IN will do more harm to the Chinese than IAF & IA put together, methinks (IAF is in the worst shape out of the 3 services).

 

[Optimist]

A western pilot's channel, with interview

This is big news from the video. China is selling 40 J-35 to Pakistan.

 

[Zarion]

This is big news from the video. China is selling 40 J-35 to Pakistan.

It is known for sometime.

 

[Optimist]

It is known for sometime.

I didn't follow what China or Pakistan are doing. It was news to me and the deal was done last night. China will divert their own J-35 to Pakistan. So they are coming soon.

 

[Zarion]

I didn't follow what China or Pakistan are doing. It was news to me and the deal was done last night. China will divert their own J-35 to Pakistan. So they are coming soon.

It wasn't done last night, according to the Pakistani media itself the deal was done last year. You'll find articles quoting Pakistani media which are dated as late 2024. So, that's one thing which is false from that video.

I don't know what you are referring as "their own" here, are you referring to prototypes, because the J 35 hasn't reached IOC so I don't know why would China order their aircrafts before they reach IOC.

Edit : Most probably they'll start the production before the IOC for Pakistan.

 

[TARGET]

I hope along with Netra series AEW&C, we'll procure some 360° covering AWACS(like Phalcon) in future too. We are preparing to send satellites in space to do AMTI/AMTT, but still AWACS/AEW&C should not be neglected.

Regarding 4.5 gen, well within next 10 years, we'll have close to 200 MK1As, over 120 MK2s, hopefully Rafale F4(2-3 squadrons gov-to-gov deal) and 114 Rafale F5(MRFA). These will be all-new 4.5 gen jets. That is enough me thinks. Time for us to seriously think about 5th & 6th gen jets.

AMCA would get IOC around 2035 while we have already begun our primary research for our AHCA aka Su-30MKI replacement. But that would come online only in late 2040s or early 2050s. So, we need to import a 5th gen fighter before 2035 otherwise we won't have any direct counter to PLAAF & PAF's current/future VLO threat.

We have ONLY two options:

1. F-35
2. Su-57

The first is ruled out because: 1. It's American. 2. It's not an ASF. So it won't counter J-20 and likes.

That leaves only the second as our only viable option "if" we ever go through import route again. Now everyone knows that Su-57 isn't a mature jet or how Russian avionics trail the Chinese or even our own. So, what should we do? Simple option is to integrate our own stuff on Su-57 airframe and produce it in Nasik. If we show promptness, we'll have it in decent numbers by the end of this decade.

If we don't import, then we have no other option but to expedite AMCA. Period.

We can also try to create this 6th-gen GHATAK.
Add EOTS, paint it with radar-absorbing material, add an underbelly weapons bay for 2 A2A missiles, and give it a 2D thrust vectoring nozzle without the vertical stabilizer. You will have a low-cost 5th-gen fighter killer.

 

[Optimist]

It wasn't done last night, according to the Pakistani media itself the deal was done last year. You'll find articles quoting Pakistani media which are dated as late 2024. So, that's one thing which is false from that video.

I don't know what you are referring as "their own" here, are you referring to prototypes, because the J 35 hasn't reached IOC so I don't know why would China order their aircrafts before they reach IOC.

Edit : Most probably they'll start the production before the IOC for Pakistan.

The USN helped us out and gave up their 24 slots in the production line. Or it would have taken a long time, if we were put on the next available. When we bought the FA-18E, we actually bought them off of the USN.
It may be similar with China, they are giving Pakistan some of their production slots.
Again I haven't followed China or Pakistan, so I'm guessing

 

[Rajput Lion]

We can also try to create this 6th-gen GHATAK.
Add EOTS, paint it with radar-absorbing material, add an underbelly weapons bay for 2 A2A missiles,

It'll have all of the above(not sure about BVR/WVRs!!)

and give it a 2D thrust vectoring nozzle without the vertical stabilizer. You will have a low-cost 5th-gen fighter killer.

View attachment 43644

The flying-wing planform is optimized to enhance broadband stealth but it restricts manoeuvrability. So giving it TVC won't be that effective, IMO. Its project name IUSAV(Indian Unmanned Strike Air Vehicle) designates its role.

What you suggested is a totally different project lead by ADE. It's called FUFA(Futuristic Unmanned Fighter Aircraft). This will be a fully autonomous UCAV that will hunt down other aerial targets.

 

[Zarion]

The USN helped us out and gave up their 24 spots. When we bought the FA-18E, we actually bought them off of the USN.
It may be similar with China, they are giving Pakistan some of their production slots.

I am assuming you are talking about FA 18 F deal. Both are very different deals, US had ordered the FA 18s and gave the slots to Australia. Here the J 35s haven't seen any orders from either the PLAAF or PLAN so how would they get slots from China when orders from their military doesn't exist?

I am assuming the orders from the Chinese forces will take place after IOC of the J 35s.

 

[_Anonymous_]

How is that a threat? Don't be so sensitive like your trans friend (Anony) who self bans when the mods scold him.

I wish you stopped projecting your predicament on me , sweetie. How am I too blame for your lack of full transition & now a reverting to your original gender especially after losing them gonads ?!

You've my profound sympathies though.

All I'm saying is if you see the US that way then I hope you don't lose your cht if the US upgrades PAF F-16's because it would be hypocritical of youz, right?

Here's an article from 9th May attesting to the S-400 ADS having shot down an F-16 from more than 200 kms away.

India shoots down Pakistan Air Force's F-16 & two JF-17 jets amid major escalation

Two Kamikaze drones were also shot down in Poonch.

www.onmanorama.com

Apparently either a 48N6E3 or a 40N6E was used & the F-16 which was either on the verge of take off or just took off from the base went down faster than you do on your men .

 

[RationalGuy]

We just have to accept that the Chinese are ahead of us in military modernisation.

We're not but sabre-rattling won't solve any issues for us.

With GE414, AMCA won't be a real 5th gen fighter. We need the JV 110/120KN engine(probably VCE) for AMCA to be fully battle-effective. Impossible before 2035 at the best, IMO.

If our VCE engine is ready by then, we could achieve this.

PLA can't defeat IA. Just not possible. IAF's role would be to deter PLAAF while IA pounds their ladyboys. The next Indo-China war will result in the freedom of Tibet. Just one or two shiny toys don't win the wars. Look what we did to Patton tanks and F-86 Sabres in 1965. War is won by the valour of your troops with ingenuity in combat tactics. Trust your armed forces. They are the best.

Even with GE414 AMCA can defeat J35 and hold it's own against J20. If we have even 20-30 AMCA facing Pak by 2035 it will be a huge boost. Drdo director was saying JV VCE engine deal will be signed this year, then that means potentially we may have engine ready by 2036/2037. Which means we can have engines ready for a AHCA prototype first flight in 2038. 2038 is like 13 years away, if government puts a AHCA program under PMO and gives it lavish funds and ropes in private sector like what happened in Arihant program I am fully confident we will have a 6th gen prototype ready to fly in 13 years. After all 13 years is a long long time! By 2040 imagine AMCA in mass production, AHCA in testing and in LSP, hundreds of Tejas Mk2, Super Sukhoi, Ghatak, Netra Mk1a Mk2 AWACS! That would be a dream come true for IAF. We can make it happen but government lethargy will kill our potential as usual.

I am assuming you are talking about FA 18 F deal. Both are very different deals, US had ordered the FA 18s and gave the slots to Australia. Here the J 35s haven't seen any orders from either the PLAAF or PLAN so how would they get slots from China when orders from their military doesn't exist?

I am assuming the orders from the Chinese forces will take place after IOC of the J 35s.

I don't think PLAAF will ever get J35. Only PLAAN will get it.

 

[South block]

A western pilot's channel, with interview

Military dot com run by a Porkee.....yes a non biased source lmao

 

[South block]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1925803039106973709