Once again you are delusional. The F-15 has better radar and missiles.
But keep dreaming. They threw the Indian exercise, to promote the purchase of the F-22.
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Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning and F-22 'Raptor' : News & Discussion
- Thread starter Nick
- Start date
But keep dreaming. They threw the Indian exercise, to promote the purchase of the F-22.
so the F-35 can supercruise?
Pardon my French, but is than an airshow information pamphlet?
you know the rules, we only pay attention to the things we want to hear from Rafale makers, we ignore what we don't want to hear. please follow the rules.La Tribune newspaper said yesterday quoting CEO of Safran, Philippe Petitcolin that, the engine upgrade in terms of thrust was necessary as the Rafale had grown heavier over the years due to addition of weapons and other systems.
He said that the original thrust of the Rafale engine was the same since the launch of the French fighter. The Rafale was designed over two decades ago.
Safran Plans Engine Upgrade For Dassault Rafale Fighter Jet
French company Safran, which manufactures the M88 engine of the Dassault Rafale fighter aircraft plans to increase its thrust from 7.5 tone to nine tons. La Tribune newspaper said yesterday quoting CEO of Safran, Philippe Petitcolin that, the engine upgrade in terms of thrust was necessary as...www.defenseworld.net
So delusional Rafale fanboys: Even though Rafale has gotten much heavier with no thrust upgrade it can super cruise mach 1.4 with ordinance. Lol.
Lets see... Rafale's top speed is mach 1.8 clean configuration and that was Rafale A model which was very light weight.... no wonder the Rafale performed horrid in air combat against export version of J-10, a down graded version.
Dassault says
unless of course Dassault says.
The engine upgrade is not going to cut it for daily supercruise. Whole new kind of engine would be required. M88s are not designed for regular supercruise use. Many such cases.
Of course...
Its happened before the US Navy to get the AIM-9X went against the Israelis who had High Offest Boresight missiles. so they could get crushed. after they got annihilated the USN said "See! We need HOBS missile!"
the USAF retired whole fleets of aircraft like the F-117 in order to get the F-22
But don't worry. they gave you 100 percent.
What other exercise did the F-15 do poorly against Russian gear?Of course...
Just one correction. Dassault has never claimed supercruise with any weapons. It's non-official articles. The same goes for active cancelation.
I don't think people realize how extreme the USAF was going to get the F-22. General Mosely did everything possible to the point where he had to be replaced by defence secretary Gates who favored the F-35 and cancelled the F-22
that is very smart on their part. none of this stuff is meant to "supercruise" as a regular mission. Fanboys think they do.
When the Gripen NG started doing its "supercruise" people familiar with the F414 understood that it was not capable of such sustained operations. Luckily it was a 1 time stunt. for posterity:
Aviation Week
January 21st, 2009
Saab's Gripen NG demonstrator achieved supercruise today. On a test flight at 28,000 feet over the Baltic, test pilot Magnus Ljungdahl accelerated to Mach 1.2 and cut the afterburner. The prototype - powered by a General Electric F414 engine - stabilized at Mach 1.2 in military power. Ljungdahl's supersonic run ended when he ran out of test area.
as always the definition of "supercruise" is very lose.
How long? don't know!
Armed with what? never mentioned!
Test plane? You Betcha!
Afterburner used? yes, because the test pilot is not stupid.
at least we got the speed and angels.
Nope.
The F-35, while not a "supercruising" aircraft, can fly at Mach 1.2 for a dash of 150 miles with afterburners.
The reason being it's not tactically useful. The F-22 and Rafale can sustain supercruise for longer and can use it tactically. The F-35's "supercruise" is just a happy surprise, a product of a decent airframe design. Another issue is the F-35's avionics cannot handle the heat from friction when it goes supersonic, while the Rafale and F-22 have sufficient tropicalization for high speed performance due to their AS airframe designs.
Another point is both Rafale and F-22 don't need to use AB to cross the transonic regime. Sure, they can cross the regime with AB and then cut off AB for faster acceleration, but they don't need to do that. F-35 exclusively uses AB to get to supersonic speeds and then cuts AB and through a happy coincidence it sustains mach 1.2 for a while, but will lose it if it maneuvers.
The two aircraft have been designed to operate at high supersonic speeds for long durations. But the F-35 is primarily designed for subsonic cruise. Even its WBs cannot handle the heat from supersonic cruise beyond a certain time.
It's from Dassault.
Anyway this is the IAF's air chief when the Rafale was purchased and introduced.
Rafale vs. J-20: War of words erupts over jet fighters
While India and China joust over who has the best jet fighter, the words of America’s legendary fighter pilot Chuck Yeager, ring loud in stark contrast — it isn’t the metal surrounding the pilot th…
defenceupdate.in
you know the rules, we only pay attention to the things we want to hear from Rafale makers, we ignore what we don't want to hear. please follow the rules.
Dassault says
unless of course Dassault says.
The engine upgrade is not going to cut it for daily supercruise. Whole new kind of engine would be required. M88s are not designed for regular supercruise use. Many such cases.
Even M88-2 was designed for supercruise.
Lets not forget why the Swiss selected F-35 over Rafale....
30 Jun 2021 Marcus Weisgerber
"...“[T]he F-35A achieved the best result because it has a marked technological advantage over the other candidates: it includes entirely new, extremely powerful and comprehensively networked systems for protecting and monitoring airspace,” the Federal Council said. “The F-35A is able to ensure information superiority; this means pilots benefit from a higher situational awareness in all task areas when compared with the other candidates. This is especially true for day-to-day air policing.”
www.defenseone.com
30 Jun 2021 Valerie Insinna
..Meanwhile, the F-35 scored better in effectiveness, product support and cooperation than the Rafale, Super Hornet and Typhoon. The Federal Council pointed specifically to the Joint Strike Fighter’s survivability and situational awareness as selling points that were seen as advantageous for the Swiss Air Force’s air-policing mission.
“In terms of effectiveness, the F-35A achieved the best result because ... it includes entirely new, extremely powerful and comprehensively networked systems for protecting and monitoring airspace,” the Federal Council stated....
www.defensenews.com
Translation.... F-35 better air dominance fighter. Swiss were not looking for some multirole fighter but a fighter for air supremacy only and the F-35 soundly beat the Rafale. In fact reports came out Rafale was third behind the F-18E.
30 Jun 2021 Marcus Weisgerber
"...“[T]he F-35A achieved the best result because it has a marked technological advantage over the other candidates: it includes entirely new, extremely powerful and comprehensively networked systems for protecting and monitoring airspace,” the Federal Council said. “The F-35A is able to ensure information superiority; this means pilots benefit from a higher situational awareness in all task areas when compared with the other candidates. This is especially true for day-to-day air policing.”
Swiss Pick F-35 to Replace Old Fighter Jets
The Lightning II beat out the Boeing Super Hornet, Dassault Rafale, and Eurofighter Typhoon.
www.defenseone.com
30 Jun 2021 Valerie Insinna
..Meanwhile, the F-35 scored better in effectiveness, product support and cooperation than the Rafale, Super Hornet and Typhoon. The Federal Council pointed specifically to the Joint Strike Fighter’s survivability and situational awareness as selling points that were seen as advantageous for the Swiss Air Force’s air-policing mission.
“In terms of effectiveness, the F-35A achieved the best result because ... it includes entirely new, extremely powerful and comprehensively networked systems for protecting and monitoring airspace,” the Federal Council stated....
Lockheed’s F-35 topples competition in Swiss fighter contest
The F-35 beat out the Eurofighter Typhoon, Dassault Rafale and Boeing's Super Hornet.
www.defensenews.com
Translation.... F-35 better air dominance fighter. Swiss were not looking for some multirole fighter but a fighter for air supremacy only and the F-35 soundly beat the Rafale. In fact reports came out Rafale was third behind the F-18E.
you gave us 3 reasons why previously and I listed all of them.
Were you wrong then or are you wrong now?
The F-35, while not technically a "supercruising" aircraft, can maintain Mach 1.2 for a dash of 150 miles without using fuel-gulping afterburners.
are you misqouting? because the original qoute is in green there.
how long? give me a number.
you 2 should sort this out!
The F-35 actually created a Happy Surprise and can supercruise even without it being required! wow!! thats amazing!
but the Rafale is not designed as an AS.
its a multrole aircraft from the start.FINALLY CAME AROUND!! what took you so long?! oh no wait... :
The F-35 can do the same thing, it uses AB for the same reason everything else does. I can't believe we are still stuck on this. LOL
so you have now changed it from NO AFTERBURNER for SC!
to "yes if you want to!" because F-22 and Rafale can pick to:
But not the F-35 because it HAS TO USE AFTERBURNER
so now the F-35 can supercruise, but it doesn't get there the way you want??
is it possible after getting it wrong on so many things in this subject and how youve had to alter your posts and opinions and even contradict your own words, that possibly you don't know this as well as you think?
so like everything else?
one has, not the Rafale and I want to know what the "long duration" is actual time or distance and at what speeds
like the Rafale, yes.
LOL
we can just dismiss this safely as PR in your style. remember that you choose to believe generals or not depending on what you want to hear.It's from Dassault.
Anyway this is the IAF's air chief when the Rafale was purchased and introduced.
“The Rafale has the supercruise ability and its radar signature is comparable to the best of the fighters in the world,” Dhanoa said.Rafale vs. J-20: War of words erupts over jet fighters
While India and China joust over who has the best jet fighter, the words of America’s legendary fighter pilot Chuck Yeager, ring loud in stark contrast — it isn’t the metal surrounding the pilot th…
source please?
The reason the Rafale isn't used for Supercruise is because it would begin to wear out the engines at a rate that would have dassault and snecma flying to india to find out why theyre airplanes have become junked and died well before their life exepectancy. you can see what happens when a Rafale is lost to Pakistan, imagine half the Rafale fleet grounded because an air force decided to redline the engines as a matter of course. it would be a disaster for everyone involved.
you keep trying to tell us the Rafale was "designed" to do things it was never designed to do. If you want to try and say "well its not designed to to that but like the F-35 through a "happy accident" it can! "Then perhaps there is more truth there, but the idea that all this stuff was "Designed" into the Rafale is poppycock that is not supported by the company that ACTUALLY DESIGNED the Rafale.
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Something I have previously said. The Rafale doesn't even match the FA-18, let alone the F-35.
I was never wrong.
"not technically a "supercruising" aircraft"
Since the aircraft is limited by airframe, fuel, and avionics, it should easily match or exceed the F-22. It won't be some crappy 150 miles flying straight.
you 2 should sort this out!
The F-35 actually created a Happy Surprise and can supercruise even without it being required! wow!! thats amazing!
Was the case with older jets too. Even HF-24 Marut could supercruise without it having been designed for it.
but the Rafale is not designed as an AS.
There's no such thing as a "multirole" airframe. You design an aircraft for either AS or strike and then kit out avionics favoring the one it's been designed for.
The F-35 can do the same thing, it uses AB for the same reason everything else does. I can't believe we are still stuck on this. LOL
so you have now changed it from NO AFTERBURNER for SC!
to "yes if you want to!" because F-22 and Rafale can pick to:
But not the F-35 because it HAS TO USE AFTERBURNER
so now the F-35 can supercruise, but it doesn't get there the way you want??
is it possible after getting it wrong on so many things in this subject and how youve had to alter your posts and opinions and even contradict your own words, that possibly you don't know this as well as you think?
It cannot use that tactically. All it can do is fly in a straight line. It cannot do high G turns or climb or roll.
They are not merchants.
Dassault Rafale: The Powerhouse Fighter Not Named NGAD or F-22 Raptor
What You Need to Know: The Dassault Rafale, France’s multirole fighter, boasts a delta wing and canard configuration similar to the Eurofighter Typhoon. Agile and versatile, the Rafale handles a range of missions, from air superiority to ground support. Its 4.5-generation designation stems from...
nationalinterest.org
In early 1990, the Rafale A prototype successfully demonstrated supercruise, meaning it achieved speeds exceeding Mach 1.4 without using afterburners. This was achieved after its port-side F404 engine was replaced with the M88 engine and tested in May 1990.
As an AS aircraft, it's specifically designed for the supersonic regime and supercruise.
Guys just stop! Rafale may or may not an ASF in the vein of F-15C(not a pound to ground) but it was designed to fulfil ASF mission(replacement of M-2000), carrier-borne mission(Super Etendard replacement) and strike mission(Jaguar replacement). So that French could design a jet that could do three complex missions in one frame is nothing but outstanding engineering by the French DA guys. Why are we discussing such a stupid topic is beyond me?
I was never wrong.
you listed 3 reasons why F-35 is supercruise aircraft and then told us again that the F-35 supercruises.so we are not going to go over how you delibrately changed the words to read something else there? lying?
I asked you to give me number. specific, tangible, comparable numbers. Not adjectives and descriptions.
I asked you for a number and you once again just "Assured" us that the Rafale was simply "Designed" that way
How do we know?
Because Dassault is lying about how they designed the aircraft and secretly designed it in the 1980s in a way that Randomradio would favor in 2020s
Dassault disagrees. you keep using that word "DESIGNED" I don't think you know what it means.
you were just telling us how the F-35 can manuever including all the things you mention, and the F-35A reached 9.9G in 2011 tests.
just because someone repeats a talking point doesn't make it true. we have extremely limited reports that lack very little detail on the Rafales supercruise and many of them are contradictory and non-sensical.
supercruising does not mean "DESIGNED FOR SUPERCRUISE" and even you Agreee with this:The M88 has supercruise capability, too,Dassault Rafale: The Powerhouse Fighter Not Named NGAD or F-22 Raptor
What You Need to Know: The Dassault Rafale, France’s multirole fighter, boasts a delta wing and canard configuration similar to the Eurofighter Typhoon. Agile and versatile, the Rafale handles a range of missions, from air superiority to ground support. Its 4.5-generation designation stems from...
In early 1990, the Rafale A prototype successfully demonstrated supercruise, meaning it achieved speeds exceeding Mach 1.4 without using afterburners. This was achieved after its port-side F404 engine was replaced with the M88 engine and tested in May 1990.
Source once again is Randomradio. thanks Random!
You have entered into a completely circular logic.
The Rafale can supercruise, and since all ASFs must supercruise, then the Rafale is an ASF.
How do we know its an ASF?
If it was not an ASF how could it supercruise? it couldn't supercruise like an ASF if it wasn't designed that way...
That is completely false.
1. please show actual credible sources showing how the Rafale was "designed" from the start to have a routine operational use of supercruise.
2. Please show why Dassault excessively emphasized Supercruise for the Rafale-- even though it was never a part of the requirements or mentioned at all and not a part of French Air Force or Navy Air combat doctrine.
3. Please show and explain why in the 1980s Dassault for some reason decided that Supercruise was the one and only way to achieve air superiority and that the Rafale simply had to have it, and how without Supercruise the Rafale would fail as an a fighter capable of Air superiority
4. Please show the actual Design features specifically built into the Rafale to make the routine use of supercruise possible
5. Please show any actual data, schematics, blueprints, and other test articles and graphs of Dassault researching supercruise and then how it was incorporated into the Rafale
6. Please show sources and other datat about how the SNECMA M88 and its derivitives and follow ones are optimised for Supercruising especially for long durations and as a function of standard operational use, any specifics similiar to how the F119 is designed would be hugely helpful. Please note, that with the F119 how it will function to facilitie Supercruise is mentioned very frequently. With the M88 I fine exactly ZERO mentions for any of the above.
I am not nearly the pretend expert on the Rafale that you pretend to be. But in researching including a paper from 1987 by the program manager, I found no mention of supercruise. there are no graphs or charts showing supercruise parameters. The Rafale was extremely well researched and in the paper read they had lots of charts and graphs not only about the Rafale but about the general subjects of aviation that would apply to the Rafale.
The only mention of "Air Superiority" is as one of the many mission sets that the Rafale was DESIGNED, as MULTIROLE fighter
it all basically becomes "The Rafale supercruises because Randomradio wants it to be true" and all the rest is you trying to make that happen by carefully selecting things that confirm your bias.
pay attention, because this is the important part: even if the Rafale in the 1980s was secretly designed to be an ASF .*which is was not* There is absolutely no connection to the concept of "air superiority" needing to include supercruise in order to achieve that requirement. the only other specific thing I found regarding "Air Superiority" mentions DOGFIGHTING in other words SLOW Speed Manuevering. nothing again, no mention at all of "Supercruise" no mentions, ZERO about creating an aircraft designed to be in constant excess of Mach 1+
a bonus question would simply be "Why?" Why would France with a history of aircraft that are even faster than the Rafale and emphasize speed to an even greater degree decide the Rafale had to be excessively fast, and yet produce something that could not outrun the Mirage 2000s already in operation? Why did Dassault engineer the worlds slowest little Mirage with the Rafale? Why is it barely mach 2 when the Mirage III was breaking that in the 1958? how do you design a supercruise aircraft that is excessively slower than the F-22? Slower than the Mirage 2000? all why claiming it was superfast?
The Rafale puts a lot of emphasis on a lot of things but pure speed is not one of them, and we can not say "well dassault suffers with speed" LOL
The F-22 is DESIGNED TO SUPERCRUISE and guess what the F-22 does? IT supercruises between mach 1.5 and Mach 1.8 as a matter of standard procedure and can do this for hundreds of kilometers and there are many specific descriptions and technical data to back this up.
The Rafale was according to you DESIGNED TO SUPERCRUISE and what does it do? Rafale doesn't supercruise except on occasions so rare that we are talking about the same TWO TIMES it happened even decades later. remember that time in 2007 when the Rafale Supercruised? 4AAMs and a droptank!!
wow anything since then?
No, but it was mentioned at an airshow!!
WOW! 2 times in 20 years!! plus the prototype in 1990!! hey thats about once a decade! not a bad average!
on the very rare occasions that the Rafale Supercruises we have very little data. Mach 1.4 maybe Mach 1.6 For how long? no idea! Distance? Nope! Proof? practically NONEXISTANT!
There is no mention by SNECMA or DASSAULT how any of this supercruise was achieved by its designs, which is weird because its a very large achievement but they hardly ever mention it. I have heard "omnirole" approximately 600,000 times though, so there is that!
How and why did Dassault manage to create the worlds slowest "fast plane? " why is Rafale "Designed" to supercruise but it never does, its not used in combat (you would think that would be a great time to do that) The Rafale is a supercruising ASF!
wow really? how does the IAF use it? it drops bombs! haha OK!
and when it does supercruise its so lackluster as to be laughable and the Mirage 2000 is faster. Why?
I know that you will have absolutely no real data or credible sources that you can show me in the above because they don't exust. its very hard to find records of things that didn't happen. I will give you an "out" a little cherry you grab so you can save what is left of your reputation pay very close attention and resist the urge to twist what I am about to gift you. ready?
Even is the Rafale was Designed as an ASF * not saying it was, but lets say that it was * Dassualt clearly did not think that supercruise was a requirement to achieve air superiority. they favored dogfighting and slow speed handling. Which is prefectly reasonable. Flankers and F-15 are ASF and they don't supercruise. F-16s and F-18 emphasize maneuver over speed. The Rafale could theortically be designed to be ASF WITHOUT needing SUPERCRUISE. which would explain why it was DESIGNED without SUPERCRUISE.
the only person who thinks Supercruise=ASF and ASF=supercruise is you. Dassault, even if Rafale was an ASF clearly didn't think Rafale needed to Supercruise to do AS. if they did think supercruise was a neccessity, Dassault flat-out failed in their objective full stop.
you made a trap for yourself you told everyone that to be ASF you needed supercruise and the Rafale can do it, but oopsiee! the Rafale doesn't supercruise so you are now stuck.
I have been stupidly comparing a real aircraft with vaporware.
so we are not going to go over how you delibrately changed the words to read something else there? lying?
I asked you to give me number. specific, tangible, comparable numbers. Not adjectives and descriptions.
I asked you for a number and you once again just "Assured" us that the Rafale was simply "Designed" that way
How do we know?
Because Dassault is lying about how they designed the aircraft and secretly designed it in the 1980s in a way that Randomradio would favor in 2020s
Dassault disagrees. you keep using that word "DESIGNED" I don't think you know what it means.
you were just telling us how the F-35 can manuever including all the things you mention, and the F-35A reached 9.9G in 2011 tests.
just because someone repeats a talking point doesn't make it true. we have extremely limited reports that lack very little detail on the Rafales supercruise and many of them are contradictory and non-sensical.
supercruising does not mean "DESIGNED FOR SUPERCRUISE" and even you Agreee with this:
Source once again is Randomradio. thanks Random!
You have entered into a completely circular logic.
The Rafale can supercruise, and since all ASFs must supercruise, then the Rafale is an ASF.
How do we know its an ASF?
If it was not an ASF how could it supercruise? it couldn't supercruise like an ASF if it wasn't designed that way...
That is completely false.
1. please show actual credible sources showing how the Rafale was "designed" from the start to have a routine operational use of supercruise.
2. Please show why Dassault excessively emphasized Supercruise for the Rafale-- even though it was never a part of the requirements or mentioned at all and not a part of French Air Force or Navy Air combat doctrine.
3. Please show and explain why in the 1980s Dassault for some reason decided that Supercruise was the one and only way to achieve air superiority and that the Rafale simply had to have it, and how without Supercruise the Rafale would fail as an a fighter capable of Air superiority
4. Please show the actual Design features specifically built into the Rafale to make the routine use of supercruise possible
5. Please show any actual data, schematics, blueprints, and other test articles and graphs of Dassault researching supercruise and then how it was incorporated into the Rafale
6. Please show sources and other datat about how the SNECMA M88 and its derivitives and follow ones are optimised for Supercruising especially for long durations and as a function of standard operational use, any specifics similiar to how the F119 is designed would be hugely helpful. Please note, that with the F119 how it will function to facilitie Supercruise is mentioned very frequently. With the M88 I fine exactly ZERO mentions for any of the above.
I am not nearly the pretend expert on the Rafale that you pretend to be. But in researching including a paper from 1987 by the program manager, I found no mention of supercruise. there are no graphs or charts showing supercruise parameters. The Rafale was extremely well researched and in the paper read they had lots of charts and graphs not only about the Rafale but about the general subjects of aviation that would apply to the Rafale.
The only mention of "Air Superiority" is as one of the many mission sets that the Rafale was DESIGNED, as MULTIROLE fighter
it all basically becomes "The Rafale supercruises because Randomradio wants it to be true" and all the rest is you trying to make that happen by carefully selecting things that confirm your bias.
pay attention, because this is the important part: even if the Rafale in the 1980s was secretly designed to be an ASF .*which is was not* There is absolutely no connection to the concept of "air superiority" needing to include supercruise in order to achieve that requirement. the only other specific thing I found regarding "Air Superiority" mentions DOGFIGHTING in other words SLOW Speed Manuevering. nothing again, no mention at all of "Supercruise" no mentions, ZERO about creating an aircraft designed to be in constant excess of Mach 1+
a bonus question would simply be "Why?" Why would France with a history of aircraft that are even faster than the Rafale and emphasize speed to an even greater degree decide the Rafale had to be excessively fast, and yet produce something that could not outrun the Mirage 2000s already in operation? Why did Dassault engineer the worlds slowest little Mirage with the Rafale? Why is it barely mach 2 when the Mirage III was breaking that in the 1958? how do you design a supercruise aircraft that is excessively slower than the F-22? Slower than the Mirage 2000? all why claiming it was superfast?
The Rafale puts a lot of emphasis on a lot of things but pure speed is not one of them, and we can not say "well dassault suffers with speed" LOL
The F-22 is DESIGNED TO SUPERCRUISE and guess what the F-22 does? IT supercruises between mach 1.5 and Mach 1.8 as a matter of standard procedure and can do this for hundreds of kilometers and there are many specific descriptions and technical data to back this up.
The Rafale was according to you DESIGNED TO SUPERCRUISE and what does it do? Rafale doesn't supercruise except on occasions so rare that we are talking about the same TWO TIMES it happened even decades later. remember that time in 2007 when the Rafale Supercruised? 4AAMs and a droptank!!
wow anything since then?
No, but it was mentioned at an airshow!!
WOW! 2 times in 20 years!! plus the prototype in 1990!! hey thats about once a decade! not a bad average!
on the very rare occasions that the Rafale Supercruises we have very little data. Mach 1.4 maybe Mach 1.6 For how long? no idea! Distance? Nope! Proof? practically NONEXISTANT!
There is no mention by SNECMA or DASSAULT how any of this supercruise was achieved by its designs, which is weird because its a very large achievement but they hardly ever mention it. I have heard "omnirole" approximately 600,000 times though, so there is that!
How and why did Dassault manage to create the worlds slowest "fast plane? " why is Rafale "Designed" to supercruise but it never does, its not used in combat (you would think that would be a great time to do that) The Rafale is a supercruising ASF!
wow really? how does the IAF use it? it drops bombs! haha OK!
and when it does supercruise its so lackluster as to be laughable and the Mirage 2000 is faster. Why?
I know that you will have absolutely no real data or credible sources that you can show me in the above because they don't exust. its very hard to find records of things that didn't happen. I will give you an "out" a little cherry you grab so you can save what is left of your reputation pay very close attention and resist the urge to twist what I am about to gift you. ready?
Even is the Rafale was Designed as an ASF * not saying it was, but lets say that it was * Dassualt clearly did not think that supercruise was a requirement to achieve air superiority. they favored dogfighting and slow speed handling. Which is prefectly reasonable. Flankers and F-15 are ASF and they don't supercruise. F-16s and F-18 emphasize maneuver over speed. The Rafale could theortically be designed to be ASF WITHOUT needing SUPERCRUISE. which would explain why it was DESIGNED without SUPERCRUISE.
the only person who thinks Supercruise=ASF and ASF=supercruise is you. Dassault, even if Rafale was an ASF clearly didn't think Rafale needed to Supercruise to do AS. if they did think supercruise was a neccessity, Dassault flat-out failed in their objective full stop.
you made a trap for yourself you told everyone that to be ASF you needed supercruise and the Rafale can do it, but oopsiee! the Rafale doesn't supercruise so you are now stuck.
HF-24 is a strike jet.
Anyway, we will discuss this again once the F-35 stops being vaporware.
the Supercruising Rafale is certainly Vaporware.
wow, look how fast this ended when people started asking for credible sources for your Rafale claims. remember when Rafale was "designed" for supercruise, and then when we said "Dassault has never mentioned that at all" and then suddenly we shifted to how the F-35 is vaporware?
fun times.
it was originally about the need for the IAF to have an air superiority fighter. And then it quickly devolved as everyone decided they want a certain fighter over others or don't want a certain fighter over others. The Rafale is not an Air Superiority Fighter. The F-35 is not either, but it has a more respectable air to air capability than people give it credit for.
with any luck, Randomradio will post all the credible sources I have asked to see in another thread (HAHAHA) and we can carry on the conversation in that domain
Then the Rafale didn't even shoot down a JF-17，
Don't you see how small the Rafale radar is? Its diameter is 580mm. My god, it's not even as big as the JF-17.
We haven't looked at the bypass ratio of the Super Hornet either. It may not be the story.
Low bypass ratio engines have greater advantages in the supersonic stage.
1. The core engine thrust accounts for a higher proportion. The core engine (internal duct) airflow of the low bypass ratio engine is ejected at high speed after combustion, which is more suitable for the high exhaust speed requirements during supersonic flight.
2. The external duct of the low bypass ratio engine is smaller or even has no external duct (such as turbojet engine), so the engine diameter is smaller, which reduces the shock wave resistance during supersonic flight.
3. The core engine of the low bypass ratio engine has more extreme working conditions (high temperature and high pressure), and has higher thermal efficiency in the supersonic state.
Although I do not agree that the Rafale fighter is suitable for supersonic cruise, I think the M88 engine is not a factor. The more important thing is that the aerodynamic design of the aircraft is more inclined to subsonic speed.