All I'm seeing here are more targets for Astra Mk2 and Gandiva, probably even Brahmos or Scalp if your AD around the airbases in Tibet is as good as the ones you gave to your puppets lol.
India vs China - War Gaming Scenarios : Related News , Updates , Discussions & Analysis .
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Then it means the Chinese saw firsthand what happened to their air bases and they likely know the truth behind Kirana hills.
BTW @randomradio @Rajput Lion @Ashwin how long do you guys think it will take China to operationalize and induct their J36 and J50 next gen aircraft? Will they start LSP by 2030 and mass production by 2035?
J-20 first flight in 2011 and LSP in 2017. You can extrapolate based on its induction timing that between 2030-35 both J-36 & J-50 would become operational.
We will likely see them inducted by 2030, followed by rapid production.
J-50 seems to be a carrier jet, so it's not an immediate threat to India. J-36 isn't a proper ASF, it's more like an agile Mig-31, but without the top speed. It's far more useful against the US and Japan than India. My guess is GCAP will be more advanced than the J-36.
The real threat will be a 6th gen J-XX for ASF. J-20 production could end by 2035, replaced by this new jet.
#OperationSindoor (
@AtmaSoch
) Aerial Battle Analysis-1Pakistan Air Force (#PAF) Tall Order Claims(Link- https://youtu.be/VDRIhH-RmKk?si=JmPIAyxxrOWVSaYr…)· Electronic identification & Electromagnetic Operations (EMO) – ELINT Capabilities· Advanced pick up of IAF build-up & planned PAF response· Conduct of Multi-Domain Operations (MDO)· Functional ADGE (Air Defence Ground Environment)· Re-routing of civil aircraft· Rules of engagement (Deter to Assured Kill & Deny Own Loss)· First ever Beyond Visual Range Air to Air Missile Targeting (BVRAAM) PL-15E (Figure 1) engagement to be used as a case study· Targeting IAF Centre of Gravity Rafaele aircrafts· Shooting down of five aircrafts (3 Rafaele, 1 MIG 29, Su30 Mk 1, UAV) inside Indian territory#Chinese bloggers claims & perspective• Pakistan will forever be grateful to #China for providing PL-15 & J10 & must have tested J10s capability against F-16s• China has plausible deniability option when guiding a PL-15 fired from a Pakistani J-10C toward an Indian target at max range of the J-10C• Chinese assisted Pakistan in intelligence sharing via satellite imagery & technical intelligence both technical and signals & was ready to restock weapons used in ongoing conflict• KJ-500 Airborne Early Warning & Control aircraft present nearby may have used its data-link to help with PL-15 targeting• Pakistani SAMs activated and successfully intercepted warheads. PAF didn’t have enough to cover civilian areas.• PAF pilots have played around with Qatari Rafales in joint exercises (https://scmp.com/news/china/military/article/3250201/chinas-j-10ce-vs-eurofighter-typhoon-jets-face-pakistan-qatar-air-drills…); PAF Pilots on secondment have flown the Qatari Rafal’s extensively, with the Indian govt complaining to the French about it• One of the Rafales was claimed to have been shot by LR-SAM HQ9; Mig 21 & SU30MKI were claimed to be shot by PL-15 from J10C (https://m.weibo.cn/detail/5163592690963125?cid=5163604840284877…, https://m.weibo.cn/detail/5163598667320529…)• AESA seeker wreckage found this time may mean that Pakistan has obtained a "recharged“ PL15E version, at least the J-10CE can carry a higher-level missile version.
@AtmaSoch
–Facts & assessment from inputs available till now only• Pakistan could have generated Electronic id but with Chinese SIGINT network (Figure 2). Pakistani fleet of nine Saab 2000 Erieye AEW&C aircraft, also would have strengthened the ELINT grid.• Pakistan is being provided real time intelligence by PLA through PLA’s kill-web architecture (Figure 3- ELINT & comprehensive space-based network)• Pakistani armed forces were critically short of costly HQ16 & HQ9 SAMs, they chose to target only high threat aircrafts on Indian territory & allowed loitering munitions to penetrate. Off course, Chinese HQ9 & HQ16 failed to stop Indian standoff cruise missiles. Successful strike on Bahawalpur is an ideal example. The precise targeting of Pakistani airfields on 10 May 2025 is another example (Figure 4). Indian cruise missiles can penetrate Chinese AD export versions & most probably even original Chinese AD.• Principle of AD is not to shoot down all aerial enemies, but to protect high-value friendly units. PAF could not protect the 9 terrorist camps stuck (even if DG ISPR claims 6 struck). Hence despite tall ADGE effectiveness claims, Pak AD was not effective.• MDO-From Pakistanis blogs itself, vast differences exist between PAF & Pak Army. Only MDO achieved was EM domain (ELINT from China) could be integrated with Air domain within PAF only.• PAF had adequate knowledge of weak points of Rafale through Qatari exercises.• PAF cowardly rerouted its civil aircrafts to shield its military aircraft movements.• Chinese collusive support clearly established & facilitated PAF to fight aerial battle. PAF used PL15 BVRAAM from J10CE both procured from China. While the normal PL15E is not so good, Chinese provided "combat enhanced version”, post 22 April 2025 in last week April. While photos revealed possible use by both JF17 & J10CE, most Chinese Weibo accounts claim of use of J-10CE on 07 May 2025. Post 07 May aerial battle, Chinese immediately advertised their PL15E with surge in AVIC stocks. There is no plausible deniability by China. China assisted Pakistan Armed Forces openly in all possible manners to withstand Indian aerial strikes but Pakistan still failed.• Cis-frontier operations- Both sides flew aircrafts on own side of LAC & used long range standoff weapons. Trans-border aerial operations are going to be extremely difficult with good AD as seen in Russo-Ukraine war also. Superior stealth aircrafts can infiltrate only if adversary AD is weak or caught sleeping.• At best, the Chinese claims are that it was J10CE with PL15 which struck a Su30Mk1 or a Mig21. These claims need further collaboration. So, clearly no Rafaele has not been shot down by PL15 AAM.• Claims of HQ9 shooting Rafaele are a different discussion at separate time with more valid inputs.#Lessons· AD & C-UAS, across arms, services, departments & security agencies, needs to integrated & progressed to Integrated Rockets-Artillery-Air-Missiles-Drones defence· Low-cost solutions need to be found for engaging low-cost enemy drones. Every possible sensor- acoustic, optical, seismic, passive & active radar needs to be integrated to detect drones. Every possible soft & hard kill option needs to be integrated to handle wide array of aerial threats.· Cyber-over-EM & AI enablement are absolutely essential.· Even civil agencies, including private firms, need to cater for at least C-UAS defence both from rogue drones’ threat & during standoffs / crisis like this.· EW cannot be forgotten particularly when fixed frequency EW is dead. Software driven EW needs to be AI enabled.· Surge capacities must cater for large production of indigenous long-range stand-off missiles.· Missile storage points must be underground & cannot be sitting duck targets.· Solutions to differentiate between decoys, civil aircraft shields & military aircraft must be identified.· Most importantly, Chinese support to Pakistan needs to be highlighted at appropriate diplomatic level.· Basic indigenous space capabilities are extremely limited & need urgent attention.· Drones are best used in larger quantities & with lowest possible cost both to protect & penetrate enemy in a dense AD, contested EM, AI-enabled cyber-OFC-drones infested, GNSS-denied & congested air domain.
This is not what we'd be going up against for we're not facing them this year. We'd be going up against something much superior for we're going up against them in 2030
It's still not received its FOC. Why ? Coz the TF it was meant to fly with has been outfitted only in 2022. I'd expect the J-20 to get the FOC by 2027-28.
As far as their 6th Gen FA program goes like all their previous programs it'd be a case of concurrent development.
However I don't see it will be part of their Taiwan invasion just like the B-21 & NGAD won't be battle ready when the balloon for Taiwan goes up.
Well India can stick it to China by selling Taiwan Brahmos. That would get winnie-Xi-poos attention.@randomradio, @vstol Jockey, @_Anonymous_, @nair, @Ashwin, @Hellfire, @marich01, @Milspec, @Parthu, @Speedster1, @Lolwa
Chinese have once again back-stabbed us by:
1. Sending domestic PL-15 missiles in-guise of Pl-15E.
2. Giving access of BeiDou BDS system to the Pakistanis.
Why both the above are significant? Well, looks like BDS indeed has some form of AMTI, so that could enable PL-15 launches as far away from 150+ kms and giving track data to the missile for course correction. This is what has happened I fear.
So next-time around, we need to completely block out BeiDou with EW before starting our air-campaign. This short war has given us some rough idea about Chinese air-to-air capabilities that shall come handy in future. Now just don't ask me source of the above extrapolation
Why hasn't Burger King sold Taiwan Tomahawks, sweetie ? After all they're an alliance partner of yours.
Same reason we don't sell Tomahawks to your Pinoy brothers which you sold Brahmos. Duh.
Answered in post 386.
Within our IADS and upcoming C4ISR, any one of our jets with the right weapon can engage and kill next gen jets.
That's why the IAF isn't worried about the semantics around 5th gen, 6th gen etc.
We have two goals, protect our airspace and kill them in theirs. Fighters and drones will protect our airspace. And Ghatak and drones will kill them in theirs. That's our plan. So the fighters can be 4th or 5th gen, it doesn't matter. What matters is what sort of information we can collect and send to them, and all they have to do is get into position and fire their weapons. So the information network and the weapons have to be on the level required to kill the J-XX.
AMCA will be able to handle more information more seamlessly compared to older jets. Its level of stealth will be outdated when introduced, but it will still be enough for our needs.
We currently do not need platform superiority. That can come 10 years after AMCA.
So what we aim to achieve from now untill 2045 is essentially aerial deterrence and not aerial supremacy wtr to China?Answered in post 386.
Within our IADS and upcoming C4ISR, any one of our jets with the right weapon can engage and kill next gen jets.
That's why the IAF isn't worried about the semantics around 5th gen, 6th gen etc.
We have two goals, protect our airspace and kill them in theirs. Fighters and drones will protect our airspace. And Ghatak and drones will kill them in theirs. That's our plan. So the fighters can be 4th or 5th gen, it doesn't matter. What matters is what sort of information we can collect and send to them, and all they have to do is get into position and fire their weapons. So the information network and the weapons have to be on the level required to kill the J-XX.
AMCA will be able to handle more information more seamlessly compared to older jets. Its level of stealth will be outdated when introduced, but it will still be enough for our needs.
We currently do not need platform superiority. That can come 10 years after AMCA.
P.S do you think AMCA stealth level will be enough to penetrate contested spaces when it enters service? Or it will be a stelathy BVRM lobber and potential aerial command center controlling drones and other assets which will do the penetration? Personally I think the latter is a very achievable goal.
We're already working with ROC on many fields. But selling BrahMos to them could become the Dragon's red line which I don't think we would like to cross at the moment.
Will wait to hear more informed opinions on what has happened till now.
Broadly I could observe the following.
Indian forces has mauled Pakistan beyond it's expectation.
Indian AD has worked phenomenally well, I stand surprised,
Against Drones, our AD performed remarkably well, ECM has rumored to have defeated most of Chinese and Turkish drones.
our Ack ack now has formidable night vision and targetting system.
Gunners did what do best, reminded us what good training achieves with legacy systems
Pechoras.... ha ha pechoras....Pechoras took down everything.
Most of our PGM's entered unobstructed, either ECM or just lack of AD availability in enemy space, and chinese MRLS are absolute shit.
The lesson that we set out to teach was delivered in style, poor chaps are now using deceit and guile for face saving measure.
@nair @suryakiran
Broadly I could observe the following.
Indian forces has mauled Pakistan beyond it's expectation.
Indian AD has worked phenomenally well, I stand surprised,
Against Drones, our AD performed remarkably well, ECM has rumored to have defeated most of Chinese and Turkish drones.
our Ack ack now has formidable night vision and targetting system.
Gunners did what do best, reminded us what good training achieves with legacy systems
Pechoras.... ha ha pechoras....Pechoras took down everything.
Most of our PGM's entered unobstructed, either ECM or just lack of AD availability in enemy space, and chinese MRLS are absolute shit.
The lesson that we set out to teach was delivered in style, poor chaps are now using deceit and guile for face saving measure.
@nair @suryakiran
I've different sources but all of them suggest heavy Chinese involvement. Just like Swift Retreat prepared us to thrash PAF this time around, rest assured that we'll thrash Chinese stuff if they get directly involved next-time around(like opening BDS to guide Pak PL-15s fired towards our jets).
Very interesting development is that USAF is looking to cancel 26 E-7s procurement and looking for their satellites to guide their long-range VLRAAMs like AIM-174 towards the target. In any next Indo-China war, we need to disable/disrupt/jam/spoof their BeiDou satellites otherwise J-16 could fire PL-17s from 300kms+ distance and they'd be guided via satellites and jeopardise our HVTs and other air-assets. This is novel domain of air-warfare that we're talking about(satellites tracking air targets and guiding missiles towards 'em) and this latest air-war might have Chinese way of testing their system as a precursor of future Sino-US war. We need to prepare accordingly to counter this threat whilst developing similar capability ourseleves. @randomradio
If we attain the capabilities I listed out previously wtr to our air force, space capabilities and cyberwarfare capabilities by 2035 i think we won't need to give a shit either about the dragon or the eagle. I hope RoC is still around that time however.
Are we working on satellite guided BVRM? I feel we should also work on elint satellites guided anti radiation missiles if it's feasible. As for Beidou i think the orbit is too high to disrupt the actual satellites so we need to focus on spoofing and jamming the signals the satellite sends through EW.
Our pinoy bros ?? Philippines had been your colony since the end of the Spanish American war up until WW-2 I guess. Subsequently you had some of your largest naval bases outside of the US there before the Filipino government got tired of you like everyone does except the Britshits & threw you out. How come they became our Pinoys ?
Fact of the matter is the latter didn't ask you for your Tomahawks at all whereas the Taiwanese have constantly been providing the US with wish lists of arms only for you to deny them .
US will protect them along with Japan & SK. That's for sure. That is going to be a war which China will try to win at any cost while US and its allies can't lose. The paradox "irresistible force meets an immovable object" has full significance here.
All BVRAAMs that have 2-way data link can be guided via AWACS or any-third party(yes, even LEO satellites). We currently don't have such capability as our Space-Offensive capability is still WIP. Only USA and maybe China have such tech with them right now. That's why I posted the above news of BeiDou system guiding PL-15s. We definitely need to counter it along with developing our own solutions regarding the same.
By preliminary examining the recovered PL 15, DRDO said that there in nothing worth reverse engineering. Sensors and data link used in Astra Mk1 are far superior. What the recovered PL 15 will provide will be the study to jam it.