Brahmos Supersonic Cruise Missile : News, Updates and Discussions

[randomradio]

Clues on how to differentiate the different versions.

MTCR-limited Brahmos = 290Km
Removed limitations = 400Km
Extended range = 450Km. I believe they introduced improved fuel management and flight trajectory here.
Near-hypersonic, mach 4.5 = 500Km. The additional speed increased the range of the 450Km version by 50Km more.
Long range version = 800 to 1000(?)Km. Very likely to be near-hypersonic. 800Km version is already operational in Russia (Oniks-M) and is being further enhanced. Of course, it could be referring to the next version, 1500Km.
Extra long range = 1500Km

Brahmos M/NG should see it being introduced with higher range too.

 

[Saaho]

Quite interesting read on the Brahmos misfire incident, one expelled officer filed charge, could not copy it but apparently this part was reason why they got terminated

View attachment 26950

Brahmos Missile Misfire: Delhi High Court Issues Notice On Indian Air Force Officer's Plea Against Against Termination

The Delhi High Court Tuesday issued notice on a plea filed by an Ind

www.livelaw.in

WTF!!!

Failing to close the hatch... failing to ensure that no missile is actually fired.. Heck why do need simlator to even have a round in the first place?
Whats up with Indian defence forces lately?

 

[Saaho]

Under paywall so if anyone can access please tell if anything news worthy

View attachment 27239

India, Russia to build BrahMoS hypersonic version

Moscow is ahead of the US and other western powers in the development of hypersonic missiles, considered a game-changer in modern warfare. Hypersonic Weapon Systems (HWS) have been in the limelight since the onset of the Russia-Ukraine conflict. BrahMos-II could have the same performance...

economictimes.indiatimes.com

India, Russia to build BrahMoS hypersonic version

Moscow is ahead of the US and other western powers in the development of hypersonic missiles, considered a game-changer in modern warfare. Hypersonic Weapon Systems (HWS) have been in the limelight since the onset of the Russia-Ukraine conflict. BrahMos-II could have the same performance...

remove-js.com

Enjoy Maadi! No paywall!

 

[marich01]

Clues on how to differentiate the different versions.

MTCR-limited Brahmos = 290Km
Removed limitations = 400Km
Extended range = 450Km. I believe they introduced improved fuel management and flight trajectory here.
Near-hypersonic, mach 4.5 = 500Km. The additional speed increased the range of the 450Km version by 50Km more.
Long range version = 800 to 1000(?)Km. Very likely to be near-hypersonic. 800Km version is already operational in Russia (Oniks-M) and is being further enhanced. Of course, it could be referring to the next version, 1500Km.
Extra long range = 1500Km

Brahmos M/NG should see it being introduced with higher range too.

I am yet to buy this high mach thing, despite all the efforts of Rajput Lion LFRJ work best at upto mach 3.5, you up the mach number and the performance becomes detrimental as per some of the CFD analysis I read. Should have kept more reference in hand, but increasing the mach number would certainly compel it to change design of the ramjet itself due to considerable intake spillage. You have to change boundary layer bleed system, actuators will need different cover because intake will have higher mach number of airflow & different volume. Fuel tank will need to be bigger due to higher consumption. LFRJ itself is quite complex compared to solid propellant based system. For efficient performance in the end a set parameter model would be chosen. I just doubt its as high as 4.5mach level.

Zircon aka the hypersonic onyx based one, will have both the high mach number & initial 800-1000km range, later you mature that scramjet further into extended 1500km range. All this because of sea level launch so it has to go up at good altitude to start the scramjet. Brahmos does not have that luxury, it takes 90 deg turn very early & then goes up slightly higher.

Edit: attached the pdf

 

[marich01]

Further to the above post, found that old pdf I was actually searching for, the initial Brahmos ramjet work related, quite old but very accurate & from the DRDL team. You can read through and see why certain parameter were chosen for satisfactory performance. If we try to increase speed to such 4.5mach level almost certainly the design will have to be modified again to satisfy the boundary conditions ie our own ramjet engine will need to be created. Our STAR itself will also have the same mach 3 speed per reports.
SFDR based system can probably reach mach 4.5 range , even touch 5 depending on high energy propellant used. Tradeoff will probably affect the maneuverability of the missile, you have a high maneuver capable Brahmos, but a much higher speed based one will lose energy trying to follow similar flight guidance and pull such maneuver, thereby lose some range. Another negative being high G load due to g force caused by such high speed which may need strong airframe and make it heavier.

 

[randomradio]

I am yet to buy this high mach thing, despite all the efforts of Rajput Lion LFRJ work best at upto mach 3.5, you up the mach number and the performance becomes detrimental as per some of the CFD analysis I read. Should have kept more reference in hand, but increasing the mach number would certainly compel it to change design of the ramjet itself due to considerable intake spillage. You have to change boundary layer bleed system, actuators will need different cover because intake will have higher mach number of airflow & different volume. Fuel tank will need to be bigger due to higher consumption. LFRJ itself is quite complex compared to solid propellant based system. For efficient performance in the end a set parameter model would be chosen. I just doubt its as high as 4.5mach level.

Zircon aka the hypersonic onyx based one, will have both the high mach number & initial 800-1000km range, later you mature that scramjet further into extended 1500km range. All this because of sea level launch so it has to go up at good altitude to start the scramjet. Brahmos does not have that luxury, it takes 90 deg turn very early & then goes up slightly higher.

Edit: attached the pdf

Ramjet can work up to mach 4.5, that's how Meteor gets that speed. The type of fuel doesn't matter, the main limitation is the airframe, as you've mentioned. So we can assume there will be both motor and airframe modifications, maybe not as much as we think.

In any case, it's what they officially say.

https://www.ruaviation.com/news/2019/3/29/13241/

The BrahMos cruise missile will get a maximum speed of Mach 5 during its upgrade to become a hypersonic weapon, Russian Head of the BrahMos Aerospace Russia-India Joint Venture Alexander Maksichev told TASS at the LIMA 2019 arms show in Malaysia on Thursday.

"We hope that in the coming years we will reach the boundary, which some scientists call the hypersound. Perhaps, somewhere in the area of Mach 4.5-5," Maksichev said.

Zircon is of similar dimensions, but it has nothing to do with Oniks.

 

[marich01]

Ramjet can work up to mach 4.5, that's how Meteor gets that speed. The type of fuel doesn't matter, the main limitation is the airframe, as you've mentioned. So we can assume there will be both motor and airframe modifications, maybe not as much as we think.

In any case, it's what they officially say.

https://www.ruaviation.com/news/2019/3/29/13241/

The BrahMos cruise missile will get a maximum speed of Mach 5 during its upgrade to become a hypersonic weapon, Russian Head of the BrahMos Aerospace Russia-India Joint Venture Alexander Maksichev told TASS at the LIMA 2019 arms show in Malaysia on Thursday.

"We hope that in the coming years we will reach the boundary, which some scientists call the hypersound. Perhaps, somewhere in the area of Mach 4.5-5," Maksichev said.

Zircon is of similar dimensions, but it has nothing to do with Oniks.

That is probably because Meteor is a2a, lighter airframe & launched at high altitude, motor burntime is less + SFDR based, not liquid ramjet. For a ground launched heavyweight missile like STAR/Brahmos a combination of solid booster and LFRJ is ideal for peak performance, even with spillage we will still get 2.8 high mach travel that can sustain for 10 mins plus. Fuel does matter though, kerosene gives very lower burn, at 1000K. That is why they add more additives to it. But Boron, Hydrogen fuel, Aluminium based propellant are of much higher quality. There is a chart in one of the pdf above for it. Tradeoff is one easier to handle, the others are not, hydrogen fuel cracking need high maintenance.

Honestly the hypersonic regime , all the CFD studies I have seen are in 6-8mach ranged & scramjet based where Hydrogen fuel will be used. With spillage the peak performance we will get will be somewhere between 6.2-7mach range imo. Whatever Rus gives us, they will insist on the core propulsion engine being bought from them like now, and they will certainly create a lower speed derivative of Zircon, ie a set of parameter satisfying our HSTDV boundary conditions. Zircon got a very good propellant that has fantastic burn, but unlikely that will be shared.

 

[Fatalis]

IN operates Brahmos from most of its capital warships. They are very satisfied with it. Even, the Next Generation vessels are going to use Brahmos. We are developing SLCM for the subs as Brahmos is too big for them and is very costly.

So, where exactly does the Brahmos-NG fits in all of this? The only case I can think of is using it on the SSN.

 

[marich01]

For starter I am not sure NG will have ground launch version yet, they have shown it mostly on the jets, su30, LCA probably. So it maybe air launched predominantly at first, later ground based derivative?

 

[_Anonymous_]

So, where exactly does the Brahmos-NG fits in all of this? The only case I can think of is using it on the SSN

NGC , NGMV , etc. Besides there's no hard & fast rule that Brahmos NG won't go in the future warships we're building apart from the ones listed above. SSNs are a decade + away. The air launched Brahmos NG would be available in 2024-25 acc to Dr Rane CEO of Brahmos Aerospace Corp.

 

[randomradio]

That is probably because Meteor is a2a, lighter airframe & launched at high altitude, motor burntime is less + SFDR based, not liquid ramjet. For a ground launched heavyweight missile like STAR/Brahmos a combination of solid booster and LFRJ is ideal for peak performance, even with spillage we will still get 2.8 high mach travel that can sustain for 10 mins plus. Fuel does matter though, kerosene gives very lower burn, at 1000K. That is why they add more additives to it. But Boron, Hydrogen fuel, Aluminium based propellant are of much higher quality. There is a chart in one of the pdf above for it. Tradeoff is one easier to handle, the others are not, hydrogen fuel cracking need high maintenance.

Honestly the hypersonic regime , all the CFD studies I have seen are in 6-8mach ranged & scramjet based where Hydrogen fuel will be used. With spillage the peak performance we will get will be somewhere between 6.2-7mach range imo. Whatever Rus gives us, they will insist on the core propulsion engine being bought from them like now, and they will certainly create a lower speed derivative of Zircon, ie a set of parameter satisfying our HSTDV boundary conditions. Zircon got a very good propellant that has fantastic burn, but unlikely that will be shared.

Let's hope they get to what's been promised. Anyway, yeah, you get top speed only at high altitude.

It may have already been tested as well. Brahmos 2 will get a new propellent. That's how the Russians work with export missiles. Whatever end speed we achieve is dependent on the airframe and materials we have managed to design. It could go even higher than Zircon if they are able. A scientist said even mach 13 is doable, so mach 7 to 13.

 

[randomradio]

If we try to increase speed to such 4.5mach level almost certainly the design will have to be modified again to satisfy the boundary conditions

They are yet to release images.

ie our own ramjet engine will need to be created.

Brahmos will only have a Russian engine. Any attempts to replace it will happen in a parallel indigenous program. Doesn't make sense for us to share such details with the Russians. It's unlikely for us to have such a plan after MTCR as well, money can be dumped into scramjet instead.

Our STAR itself will also have the same mach 3 speed per reports.

It's a completely different requirement though.

 

[randomradio]

IN operates Brahmos from most of its capital warships. They are very satisfied with it. Even, the Next Generation vessels are going to use Brahmos. We are developing SLCM for the subs as Brahmos is too big for them and is very costly.

So, where exactly does the Brahmos-NG fits in all of this? The only case I can think of is using it on the SSN.

As a smaller missile, it can fit inside the torpedo tubes of conventional submarines. It can also be modified for use from other ship and sub VLS. Anyway, the SLCM plays a complementary role, and will have more range. With our future consisting of bigger subs, that would mean bigger magazines as well, so both types can be carried.

SSNs should be able to carry the standard Brahmos with all that additional range.

The main impact will be felt on aircraft though.

 

[randomradio]

For starter I am not sure NG will have ground launch version yet, they have shown it mostly on the jets, su30, LCA probably. So it maybe air launched predominantly at first, later ground based derivative?

It's a tri-services missile. It can replace the existing Brahmos 1 inventories wherever range isn't such a big criteria, like the army's SCs. The army has no need to attack anything beyond 400Km, that's the IAF's job.

 

[marich01]

It's a tri-services missile. It can replace the existing Brahmos 1 inventories wherever range isn't such a big criteria, like the army's SCs. The army has no need to attack anything beyond 400Km, that's the IAF's job.

Per my understanding NG is mainly export oriented, they are eyeing sukhoi & other Rus jet operators to use this without the extra hardening work on the center carriage pylon. Plus our own future jets will have it included on weapons package offered for export. NG will be 100% indigenised so maybe, just maybe it will have our own ramjet who knows, independent of Rus? Yes its likely for IN & IAF oriented no doubt, and for export market.

 

[randomradio]

Per my understanding NG is mainly export oriented, they are eyeing sukhoi & other Rus jet operators to use this without the extra hardening work on the center carriage pylon. Plus our own future jets will have it included on weapons package offered for export. NG will be 100% indigenised so maybe, just maybe it will have our own ramjet who knows, independent of Rus? Yes its likely for IN & IAF oriented no doubt, and for export market.

Brahmos is a JV, so it will stay that way. There was another indigenous attempt at making a long range equivalent, but once MTCR happened, we didn't need it for obvious reasons. Of course, there might be a long term plan, while I haven't seen any indications of it, it could happen, but it could be a political decision in case things sour between India and Russia. Indian production of the engine could happen though. When they say 6-8 years, that's how long they expect it to take the Indian company chosen to absorb the ToT. So it's something for the 2030s to worry about. But it would still mean the engine will be Russian IP, but old enough to be given away to India.

NG is not being made for export, the primary customer is still India. It just has far better export prospects.

 

[marich01]

Brahmos is a JV, so it will stay that way. There was another indigenous attempt at making a long range equivalent, but once MTCR happened, we didn't need it for obvious reasons. Of course, there might be a long term plan, while I haven't seen any indications of it, it could happen, but it could be a political decision in case things sour between India and Russia. Indian production of the engine could happen though. When they say 6-8 years, that's how long they expect it to take the Indian company chosen to absorb the ToT. So it's something for the 2030s to worry about. But it would still mean the engine will be Russian IP, but old enough to be given away to India.

NG is not being made for export, the primary customer is still India. It just has far better export prospects.

I am not disputing that Jv part, but this 100% indigenised NG version info came from Dr Rane himself, so multiple angle can happen. Rus can just take their share of profit & be happy, we can make everything on our own in case of NG. Issue was we having to buy major parts from them & still pay 50% of profit. That would curtail somewhat hopefully.
In theory, if you replace much of the airframe with composite material, you get good weight reduction, right? We also now make good solid rocket motor. So many parts of the project are in our hands already. Seekers, booster, guidance, we must have got some expertise by now.

 

[Bali78]

Seekers, booster, guidance, we must have got some expertise by now.

Isn’t it strange we still faced issues with Nirbhay in these areas ?

 

[randomradio]

I am not disputing that Jv part, but this 100% indigenised NG version info came from Dr Rane himself, so multiple angle can happen. Rus can just take their share of profit & be happy, we can make everything on our own in case of NG. Issue was we having to buy major parts from them & still pay 50% of profit. That would curtail somewhat hopefully.
In theory, if you replace much of the airframe with composite material, you get good weight reduction, right? We also now make good solid rocket motor. So many parts of the project are in our hands already. Seekers, booster, guidance, we must have got some expertise by now.

I guess he is referring to local production.

 

[randomradio]

Isn’t it strange we still faced issues with Nirbhay in these areas ?

Different labs, different tech.