Twin-Engine Deck Based Fighter (TEDBF)

[randomradio]

HAL Land version, ORCA

While ORCA can replace the Rafale in theory, based on TEDBF specs, but not within the same timeframe. Anyway ORCA won't become available before AMCA Mk1, so if the choice is between two "new, untested" fighters, the IAF will obviously go for more AMCA Mk1 rather than ORCA. So ORCA also doesn't compete with Rafale, although it competes with AMCA Mk1's timeframe.

ADA/HAL should have thought of ORCA/TEDBF a decade ago, when MMRCA was anounced. And it should have been flying by now.

The IN is going after TEDBF because ADA does not have the time available to make a next gen fighter jet that will also be STOBAR capable. AMCA isn't suitable for carriers, so it can't be modified. So the choice for the IN is between TEDBF in 10 years or a next gen fighter in 15-20 years. And since neither Rafale nor SH are compatible with our two carriers, the TEDBF it is.

ORCA is definitely an option for the export market.

 

[randomradio]

I do hope they could make some IWB for the TEDBF for atleast two bvr missiles otherwise it will be DOA with nothing redeeming about it. All naval air forces will shift to fifth gen planes in their Navy's when the tedbf comes online and I fear it will still be inferior to the rafale and sh3 forget matching the f-35. TEDBF will be facing the j-31 and not the j15 for the most part . And by that time it would have matured quite a bit..

TEDBF cannot be modified like that. Also for a naval fighter, such a small IWB is going to be useless. IN will need next gen jet from their third carrier onwards, possibly the USN-NGAD. For the first two carriers, a 4th gen design is more suitable.

 

[AbRaj]

Indian forces and strategic thinkers fancy flying 5th and 6th gen fighters but end up sending Mig 21s and 29s to thwart enemy intrusion.
hilarious and pity at the same time

 

[TARGET]

ADA seems to be providing 2 solutions for IN ... a Trapezoidal wing with tail and a canard delta , But the delta canard is going for wind tunnel testing now, Final decesion will be taken by IN.

 

[Amal]

 

[randomradio]

Probably carries a lot of extra fuel.

 

[Arpit]

Developpement of this TEDBF and AMCA together aren't a waste of money and energy?
I'm afraid one of the two will be scratched, and the other accomodate to the second service.

firstly, why people started to think LO/Stealth 5th gen aircraft is the solution for all things? Those aircraft are maintenance intensive, providing a very low sortie rate. These aircraft are best if used in force-mix, not as alone. If LO aircraft is the solution to everything then why USN buying SH Block-3?

U.S. Navy Just Got Its First New F/A-18 Super Hornets — Here Are The Key Upgrades

The importance to naval aviation of the latest generation of the fighter can’t be understated.

www.forbes.com

And who is saying TEDBF/ORCA only is for the Indian Navy? IAF soon needs to replace MiG-29, Mirages, Jags, and early MKIs ( which won't be part of the Super Sukhoi upgrade). Also, new orders for Rafale is unlikely, IAF needs to cover that too.

AMCA has its purpose, and soon there be a version for SFC too, that be fully covered with RAM paint. So the requirement of AMCA & TEDBF is enough to fund the program.

 

[Lolwa]

TEDBF cannot be modified like that. Also for a naval fighter, such a small IWB is going to be useless. IN will need next gen jet from their third carrier onwards, possibly the USN-NGAD. For the first two carriers, a 4th gen design is more suitable.

But a 4th gen aircraft in 2030's is DOA..

 

[Arpit]

Also to clear one misconception, 4th/4.5 gen aircrafts going nowhere till 2070. Otherwise, USAF replaced all their aircraft with F-22 & F-35 by now. So if a superpower unable to afford it, expecting us to do it is idiotic.

Here Is Our First Look At One Of Boeing's New F-15EX Eagle Fighter Jets For The Air Force

Air Force just awarded Boeing a contract worth nearly $23 billion related to these aircraft, which includes the purchase of the first lot.

www.thedrive.com

 

[Ashwin]

Let's hope navy has remembered to include CATOBAR in the requirement for future carrier !.

 

[randomradio]

But a 4th gen aircraft in 2030's is DOA..

For the air force, yes. For the navy, no. Navies have a lot of space to operate in.

 

[TARGET]

firstly, why people started to think LO/Stealth 5th gen aircraft is the solution for all things? Those aircraft are maintenance intensive, providing a very low sortie rate. These aircraft are best if used in force-mix, not as alone. If LO aircraft is the solution to everything then why USN buying SH Block-3?

U.S. Navy Just Got Its First New F/A-18 Super Hornets — Here Are The Key Upgrades

The importance to naval aviation of the latest generation of the fighter can’t be understated.

www.forbes.com

And who is saying TEDBF/ORCA only is for the Indian Navy? IAF soon needs to replace MiG-29, Mirages, Jags, and early MKIs ( which won't be part of the Super Sukhoi upgrade). Also, new orders for Rafale is unlikely, IAF needs to cover that too.

AMCA has its purpose, and soon there be a version for SFC too, that be fully covered with RAM paint. So the requirement of AMCA & TEDBF is enough to fund the program.

About wastage of money, people forget ADA and HAL have salaried govt employees, so analyzing multiple platforms is the proper utilization of our resources e.g. wind tunnel testing... since labs are govt owned so we have to use them to the max and about subsystems, they are mostly interlinked.

 

[randomradio]

Also to clear one misconception, 4th/4.5 gen aircrafts going nowhere till 2070. Otherwise, USAF replaced all their aircraft with F-22 & F-35 by now. So if a superpower unable to afford it, expecting us to do it is idiotic.

Here Is Our First Look At One Of Boeing's New F-15EX Eagle Fighter Jets For The Air Force

Air Force just awarded Boeing a contract worth nearly $23 billion related to these aircraft, which includes the purchase of the first lot.

www.thedrive.com

That's not how it works. There's a huge difference between shoring up numbers of old jets and inducting a brand new jet in the 2030s. The 2020s is the upper limit for proven 4th gen jets. An unproven 4th gen jet in the 2030s is a definite question mark, 'cause any new fighter jet takes at least 5-10 years of operational testing before it can be cleared for most missions. A procen jet can begin operations immediately. Only the navy has some room to operate it because their operational requirements are not as stringent as the air force's requirements.

The USAF is gonna operate their 4th gen jets in already sanitised airspaces, like continental US. And that's only for the F-15EX, also they are yet to make a decision. They were actually forced to buy new F-15s, it's a budget decision. This can be reversed anytime.

Air Force Wants Both F-35 and F-15EX. But if Forced to Choose, It's No Contest: SecAF

The only factor that would stifle the F-15EX fleet would be another bad budget situation, said Air Force Secretary Wilson.

www.military.com

If the budget does force the service to pick an aircraft, that decision is obvious, Wilson said. "We're not going to trade off fifth-generation for fourth-generation."

It's not a budget decision for India. It's a technical decision, we simply can't make our own fifth gen naval jet in time on our own, and existing 4th gen jets are not good enough, hence the need to develop a contemporary fighter jet that can be launched from a type of carrier no one is really interested in operating hence haven't developed suitable technologies for it.

The US can't "afford" it because they are already buying 2400+ F-35s and 150+ B-21 bombers. So you shouldn't be confusing their inability to afford something with our inability to develop something. The two situations are not the same.

 

[Bon Plan]

If France as a 2.7 trillion USD economy can afford some 2-3 squadrons of Rafale M, India with a 3 trillion USD can definitely afford some 80- 100 TEDBF in 10 -15 yrs from now .

It's not the same. Rafale is a single plane with minor modifications for Navy vs air force. So the cost of the M variant is only slighly higer than the armee de l'air model (the differences : A harder undercarriage and an electric integrated ladder for M variant. That's all.).
The indian case is different : 2 totaly differents planes for 2 services. This is why I think a merge will be made, or one will be scratched.

 

[Arpit]

That's not how it works. There's a huge difference between shoring up numbers of old jets and inducting a brand new jet in the 2030s. The 2020s is the upper limit for proven 4th gen jets. An unproven 4th gen jet in the 2030s is a definite question mark, 'cause any new fighter jet takes at least 5-10 years of operational testing before it can be cleared for most missions. A procen jet can begin operations immediately. Only the navy has some room to operate it because their operational requirements are not as stringent as the air force's requirements.

The USAF is gonna operate their 4th gen jets in already sanitised airspaces, like continental US. And that's only for the F-15EX, also they are yet to make a decision. They were actually forced to buy new F-15s, it's a budget decision. This can be reversed anytime.

Air Force Wants Both F-35 and F-15EX. But if Forced to Choose, It's No Contest: SecAF

The only factor that would stifle the F-15EX fleet would be another bad budget situation, said Air Force Secretary Wilson.

www.military.com

If the budget does force the service to pick an aircraft, that decision is obvious, Wilson said. "We're not going to trade off fifth-generation for fourth-generation."

It's not a budget decision for India. It's a technical decision, we simply can't make our own fifth gen naval jet in time on our own, and existing 4th gen jets are not good enough, hence the need to develop a contemporary fighter jet that can be launched from a type of carrier no one is really interested in operating hence haven't developed suitable technologies for it.

The US can't "afford" it because they are already buying 2400+ F-35s and 150+ B-21 bombers. So you shouldn't be confusing their inability to afford something with our inability to develop something. The two situations are not the same.

Firstly if we want to go for Fifth Gen, we anytime can buy Su-57. No one stopping anyone to do it. and no it is not a technical constrain. It is actually budget constraints.

And in a situation when the US budget is declining, saying they start to go like a cold war purchase is not only stupid but idiotic too. Budget constraints are a big thing, even for the USA. The US has now 1200 F-16 right now, and around 500 are already retired. The "PLAN" of 1700 F-35 replacement is totally on par with replacing F-16 on one on one basis. They are not even touching replacing F-15 with F-35. And again this is only a plan, this plan is actually 50 years long program in procuring 1700 F-35. It is not like in 2022 US will have 1700 F-35? So what are they going to do until 2070 if the 4th gen becomes obsolete tech as you suggesting?


Now to move forward, to India. If you are suggesting we have a very deep pocket, then why not purchased 123 Rafales by now? If it is not a budget decision, and we are Saudi Arabia, we should buy Su-57 or KFX. Why not? Because firstly AMCA is a strategic project, with requirement even in SFC (and that is totally different ver btw), and we are actually suffering from Dollar/Euro constrain. And ORCA is not like a brand new tech going to develop, 90% of LRUs, engines, avionics going to be as same as in Tejas Mk.2. The technological maturity is already there, the only thing you need is airframe maturity, and it can be achieved if HAL dedicates one prototype airframe for stress testing only. So, no it won't take 10 years in maturing a platform if designed smartly (the same way Koreans doing in KFX), and I pretty sure we adopting the same path.

The Pentagon Just Bought a Bunch of F-35s

The planes are being allocated to the Air Force, Marines, and Navy

www.popularmechanics.com

 

[Hydra]

Firstly if we want to go for Fifth Gen, we anytime can buy Su-57. No one stopping anyone to do it. and no it is not a technical constrain. It is actually budget constraints.

And in a situation when the US budget is declining, saying they start to go like a cold war purchase is not only stupid but idiotic too. Budget constraints are a big thing, even for the USA. The US has now 1200 F-16 right now, and around 500 are already retired. The "PLAN" of 1700 F-35 replacement is totally on par with replacing F-16 on one on one basis. They are not even touching replacing F-15 with F-35. And again this is only a plan, this plan is actually 50 years long program in procuring 1700 F-35. It is not like in 2022 US will have 1700 F-35? So what are they going to do until 2070 if the 4th gen becomes obsolete tech as you suggesting?


Now to move forward, to India. If you are suggesting we have a very deep pocket, then why not purchased 123 Rafales by now? If it is not a budget decision, and we are Saudi Arabia, we should buy Su-57 or KFX. Why not? Because firstly AMCA is a strategic project, with requirement even in SFC (and that is totally different ver btw), and we are actually suffering from Dollar/Euro constrain. And ORCA is not like a brand new tech going to develop, 90% of LRUs, engines, avionics going to be as same as in Tejas Mk.2. The technological maturity is already there, the only thing you need is airframe maturity, and it can be achieved if HAL dedicates one prototype airframe for stress testing only. So, no it won't take 10 years in maturing a platform if designed smartly (the same way Koreans doing in KFX), and I pretty sure we adopting the same path.

The Pentagon Just Bought a Bunch of F-35s

The planes are being allocated to the Air Force, Marines, and Navy

www.popularmechanics.com

Su57 is not a gen 5 fighter according to many ( i dont know how true it is), and asper @randomradio j16 is superior to SU35 when comes to avionics , sologically speaking a country incapable of creating a decent avionics of gen 4 fighter cannot produce a gen5 fighter. All stealth fighters are not gen5 fighters
So currently we dont have any access to a true stealth fighter, and our only hope is AMCA. Dont bring F35, with s400 being stationed in INDIA & Biden stationing in USA,we cannot have F35 with IAF.

Most dangerous scenarios is PAF getting a stealth 5th gen fighter from china or turkey or even from Biden Administration before AMCA comes online.

 

[Arpit]

Su57 is not a gen 5 fighter according to many ( i dont know how true it is), and asper @randomradio j16 is superior to SU35 when comes to avionics , sologically speaking a country incapable of creating a decent avionics of gen 4 fighter cannot produce a gen5 fighter. All stealth fighters are not gen5 fighters
So currently we dont have any access to a true stealth fighter, and our only hope is AMCA. Dont bring F35, with s400 being stationed in INDIA & Biden stationing in USA,we cannot have F35 with IAF.

I can only laugh at this that J-16 is superior to Su-35, but yeah Su-57 is not much Fifth Gen, that is true, more like a 4.5+. But no one stopping us to buy KFX.

 

[Hydra]

I can only laugh at this that J-16 is superior to Su-35, but yeah Su-57 is not much Fifth Gen, that is true, more like a 4.5+. But no one stopping us to buy KFX.

IAF buying KFX when we have active AMCA program is something like IAF buying Grippen over over LCA, not gonna happen.

 

[Arpit]

IAF buying KFX when we have active AMCA program is something like IAF buying Grippen over over LCA, not gonna happen.

Exactly, but people are suggesting like this is something technical constrain, not budgetary constrains.

If this is only a technical one, we should buy KFX, i don't know what's the problem with it.

 

[Lolwa]

Exactly, but people are suggesting like this is something technical constrain, not budgetary constrains.

If this is only a technical one, we should buy KFX, i don't know what's the problem with it.

Kfx is inferior to our amca better off buying the su57 then. Kfx is junk. We could even go for the f35 if the situation becomes that bad..