Will POTUS Trump move to recognize Jerusalem as Capital of Israel and shift US Embassy lead to new chaos in Middle East?

Beginning of a Chaotic new time in Middle East?


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Aashish

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#1
Will POTUS Trump move to recognize Jerusalem as Capital of Israel and shift US Embassy lead to new chaos in Middle East?

Please give your views for a fruitful discussion.
 

BlackOpsIndia

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#2
I think important question for us is with North Korea, Iran obsession, Syria, ISIS and so much internal chaos (both in administration and politics, russian probe, travel ban etc), Afghanistan, does India's Pakistan problem even under discussion?

Do they even have time for India? Or we are just to feed the agenda of Trump and kept aside after making payment till US solve these "urgent" issues? Seems very unlikely that with so many self created obsessions Trump or US will have time to fulfill commitment made to India and by the time they get a breathing space it's already new President in white House and all that was promised for so called deals is simply forgotten, the classic US style.
 

Aashish

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#3
The long pending issues of middle east had one particular issue of interest as it concerns with our mutual ally Israel and another country with whom we have maintained friendly relations for very long time - Palestine. The place holy to many of the religious aspects - Jerusalem and last 48 hours have again put the whole focus back on this.


Many believe that POTUS is just fulfilling his campaign promise but it wont change anything fundamentally wrt USA policy for middle east. Inspite of two state solution endorsed by POTUS, it seems a fire has been lit in Middle East with this move

With Saudi King Salman bin Abdul Aziz warned Trump “that such a dangerous step of relocation or recognition of Al-Quds as the capital of Israel would constitute a flagrant provocation of Muslims, all over the world.” There can be a backlash which is expected to increase with fundamentally all related groups coming under one umbrella to support under the garb of protecting fellow brothers of same religion

Many argue POTUS move is simply recognising what has been the open truth for decades - Jerusalem has historically been Israel’s capital and that most of the nation’s government — including the prime minister’s office, the Supreme Court and the legislature.

But also it needs to be pointed that USA policy was holding onto ambiguity - a fact which saw multiple past POTUS keeping this recognition "pending" in the hope of a peaceful solution for this sensitive matter. What now is very important to understand is that US policy of recognition basically delinked the "embassy position" for the solution. In a way the portion is recognized and fully endorsed as Israeli without any doubt and also no more let off or compromises to be done for exploring "peaceful solutions"

In a quick move Palestinian factions jointly announced three “days of rage,” beginning Wednesday, to protest the potential U.S. Embassy move and recognition of Jerusalem.

So is this a start to a new chaos in middle east?

Important to see what will be orientation of Indian Foreign Policy as well on this crucial matter..
 

RATHORE

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#4
Nah, the Middle East sucked yesterday, it sucked today, and it's gonna suck about the same tomorrow. And this actually isn't too bad of a move, to show the Palestinians that they can't just wage an eternal war (as Muslim belligerents in a lot of conflicts vow to do) in the hopes that eventually they'll evict the Israelis from Jerusalem and the rest of "Palestine" (which is the true endgame for groups like Hamas).

On more than one occasion, the Israelis have made gestures like stopping settlements, withdrawing from Gaza etc. And what do they get in return other than copious amounts of terrorism?
 
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Parul

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#5
This should have been done 22 years ago when US was in a much stronger position to squash anything that happened.

Perfect time for Palestine to come to the table but they won't and never will because the last 22 years has proven that peace can never come while one Jew is breathing.
 

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#7
You have to give credit where credit's due. For all his blunders and buffoonery, he definitely keeps his word.
Banning entry for Muslims from 7 countries, trying to reconcile with Russia and now this.
Pulls no punches, this guy.
 
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#8
On more than one occasion, the Israelis have made gestures like stopping settlements, withdrawing from Gaza etc. And what do they get in return other than copious amounts of terrorism?
They've never stopped settlements. When they pulled from Gaza, they simultaneously intensified settlement building in the West Bank. Israeli leaders such as Netanyahu have explicitly said they sabotaged peace deals.
Tricky Bibi
 

RATHORE

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#9
They've never stopped settlements. When they pulled from Gaza, they simultaneously intensified settlement building in the West Bank. Israeli leaders such as Netanyahu have explicitly said they sabotaged peace deals.
Tricky Bibi
So what were they just supposed to concede to all the Palestianian points without getting anything concrete in return? And sure, they may have sabotaged deals which they didn't find to be in their interests, and if Palestinians were honest enough they'd tell you they've done the same plenty of times.

But between the Israelis and Palestinians, I'm far more inclined to believe the Israelis. The Israelis gave back the entire Sinai to Egypt in exchange for peace. That establishes their credibility and desire for peace in the region. The Palestinians elect terrorist groups whose stated goal is to wipeout Israel and Jews, and who routinely engage in terrorism from behind schools, mosques, UN sites etc and use the population that supports and elects them as a collective human shield/insurance policy to discourage justified Israeli retaliation to their constant terrorism.
 

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#10
The long pending issues of middle east had one particular issue of interest as it concerns with our mutual ally Israel and another country with whom we have maintained friendly relations for very long time - Palestine. The place holy to many of the religious aspects - Jerusalem and last 48 hours have again put the whole focus back on this.


Many believe that POTUS is just fulfilling his campaign promise but it wont change anything fundamentally wrt USA policy for middle east. Inspite of two state solution endorsed by POTUS, it seems a fire has been lit in Middle East with this move

With Saudi King Salman bin Abdul Aziz warned Trump “that such a dangerous step of relocation or recognition of Al-Quds as the capital of Israel would constitute a flagrant provocation of Muslims, all over the world.” There can be a backlash which is expected to increase with fundamentally all related groups coming under one umbrella to support under the garb of protecting fellow brothers of same religion

Many argue POTUS move is simply recognising what has been the open truth for decades - Jerusalem has historically been Israel’s capital and that most of the nation’s government — including the prime minister’s office, the Supreme Court and the legislature.

But also it needs to be pointed that USA policy was holding onto ambiguity - a fact which saw multiple past POTUS keeping this recognition "pending" in the hope of a peaceful solution for this sensitive matter. What now is very important to understand is that US policy of recognition basically delinked the "embassy position" for the solution. In a way the portion is recognized and fully endorsed as Israeli without any doubt and also no more let off or compromises to be done for exploring "peaceful solutions"

In a quick move Palestinian factions jointly announced three “days of rage,” beginning Wednesday, to protest the potential U.S. Embassy move and recognition of Jerusalem.

So is this a start to a new chaos in middle east?

Important to see what will be orientation of Indian Foreign Policy as well on this crucial matter..
Iran going to fund Hamas. Hamas going to kill more Israelis. And then Israelis retaliate.

But I expect this time, as sole Muslim nuclear power, Pakistan also going to be involved in this matter.
 

RATHORE

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#11
Iran going to fund Hamas. Hamas going to kill more Israelis. And then Israelis retaliate.

But I expect this time, as sole Muslim nuclear power, Pakistan also going to be involved in this matter.
And what exactly is Pakistan going to do about it?
 

RATHORE

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#13
Pakistan since 1947 always remain involved in affairs of Middle East, we sent troops, pilots, and even in Grand Mosque Siege.

Rest assured, when time come you able to know what Pak capable to do in Middle East.
Setting aside the fact that Pakistan can't handle Israel; what gives you the impression that the Gulf countries (on whom Pakistan is financially dependent) would want or allow your involvement there, considering their friendships with Israel?

What makes you think that Iran would want you exerting influence in an area where they already do, and if by some luck, Iran accepts your involvement, I hope you realize this means that you would end up on the Iranian side of any Gulf Arab-Iranian split/conflict.

The best Pakistan can do is try some covert activity, and just remember, Mossad are the kings of that. So if you guys really think you can do something, and are really planning on jumping in, please by all means, be our guests.

PS: You forgot to mention one thing Pakistan also did when getting involved in the Middle East. You guys also sent a Brigadier by the name of Zia ul Haq (naam toh suna hoga) to slaughter thousands of Palestinians on behalf of Jordan in an event still remembered as "Black September."
 
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#14
Pakistan since 1947 always remain involved in affairs of Middle East, we sent troops, pilots, and even in Grand Mosque Siege.

Rest assured, when time come you able to know what Pak capable to do in Middle East.
To be honest, Pakistan has too much of its own problems to bother with Israel with whom you share no border. As someone already mentioned, when it comes to playing 'dirty' : read covert ops etc, no one beats Israeli. Plus given Indian 'interests' in Pakistan, a confrontation -- even if it is a covert one -- with Mosad and RAW acting together will be more than what Pakistan can handle.
 

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#15
So what were they just supposed to concede to all the Palestianian points without getting anything concrete in return? And sure, they may have sabotaged deals which they didn't find to be in their interests, and if Palestinians were honest enough they'd tell you they've done the same plenty of times.
It's precisely the opposite that happened. Palestinians made plenty of concessions, while Israeli never did any single one.

And why would they? They have the upper hand. They benefit from the status quo. Any sort of actual peace deal would put an end to Israel's policy of expansionism.

Do not be misled, here. Stop blaming the victim for the crimes of the oppressor.
Iran going to fund Hamas. Hamas going to kill more Israelis. And then Israelis retaliate.

But I expect this time, as sole Muslim nuclear power, Pakistan also going to be involved in this matter.
No.

The Arab countries have all effectively allied with Israel. Saudi Arabia especially. This is because they have in common that they are client states of the USA. Hamas is crippled and cannot do anything substantial. Worst case, there'll be a few more stabbings, something that is utterly inconsequential in the grand scheme of things -- especially when in the meantime, Saudi-backed jihadists (the Salafist movement) kill hundreds of people in other countries. Oh, but silly me, I forgot that one Israeli life is worth a thousand African lives.
Anyways, Pakistan is a Sunni country closely linked to Saudi Arabia, and Pakistani Salafists are currently waging a genocidal war against the Shia minority of Pakistan. They are never going to ally with Iran. So, if Pakistan were to be involved in this matter, it would be on the side of Saudi Arabia and Israel and the USA against Iran.
 
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RATHORE

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#16
It's precisely the opposite that happened. Palestinians made plenty of concessions, while Israeli never did any single one.

And why would they? They have the upper hand. They benefit from the status quo. Any sort of actual peace deal would put an end to Israel's policy of expansionism.

Do not be misled, here. Stop blaming the victim for the crimes of the oppressor.
Victims? Oh please. I've had enough of this global victimhood narrative where Muslims have religious and territorial conflicts with every group they come in contact with and somehow, every single time, they're the victims. It's a tonne of nonsense. Look at how many Middle Eastern countries are Muslim, and what happened to the minorities there. Then consider the fact that there is one small sliver of land in this whole region, which isn't Muslim, and is incidentally also the only democracy. Then recall how the Arab states behaved with this newly formed country, collectively invading it the minute it was created in 1948.

Consider Israel's repeated attempts to make peace with both the Arabs and Palestinians (also to date, nobody is able to give a satisfactory answer as to why all these Muslim countries, with their vast swathes of land, and in the case of the GCC - mounds of petrodollars, are not able to accommodate the Palestinians themselves?).

All this victim/oppressed stuff is BS. The real goal is to wipe Jews out of the Middle East. Go ahead and give Palestinians a state today, then watch what sort of country they create, and watch them come back in a decade or so and start claiming more oppression and demanding more territorial concessions.
 

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#17
Victims? Oh please. I've had enough of this global victimhood narrative where Muslims have religious and territorial conflicts with every group they come in contact with and somehow, every single time, they're the victims. It's a tonne of nonsense.
I'm not talking about Muslims. I'm talking about Palestinians. It's one specific group, and besides, not all Palestinians are Muslims: they have a Christian minority that is just as oppressed by Israel as the rest of the Palestinians.

Palestine is being occupied by Israel. It's a fact, not nonsense. Don't let your sectarian hatred for Muslims blind you to the fact that Israel is a colonial occupier.

Israel was created by violent war against the Palestinians. People who condemn terrorism now would do well to remember that Israel was created by terrorist groups, who attacked both the British (who were in charge of Mandatory Palestine following the dismantling of the Ottoman Empire) and the Palestinians. Entire villages were slaughtered to intimidate other Palestinians into leaving. Why do you think it was attacked?

As for giving Palestinians a state today, only the Israeli can do that. And they don't want to.
 

RATHORE

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#18
I'm not talking about Muslims. I'm talking about Palestinians. It's one specific group, and besides, not all Palestinians are Muslims: they have a Christian minority that is just as oppressed by Israel as the rest of the Palestinians.

Palestine is being occupied by Israel. It's a fact, not nonsense. Don't let your sectarian hatred for Muslims blind you to the fact that Israel is a colonial occupier.

Israel was created by violent war against the Palestinians. People who condemn terrorism now would do well to remember that Israel was created by terrorist groups, who attacked both the British (who were in charge of Mandatory Palestine following the dismantling of the Ottoman Empire) and the Palestinians. Entire villages were slaughtered to intimidate other Palestinians into leaving. Why do you think it was attacked?

As for giving Palestinians a state today, only the Israeli can do that. And they don't want to.

1. I'm well aware of Christian Palestinians. Doesn't change the fact that they are an overwhelmingly Muslim group.
2. Sure, I'm aware of the Jewish groups that violently agitated for Israel. But the history of the Muslims, Jews (and their quest for a safe homeland - free of historical persecution), or that piece of land didn't begin in 1948 either. How far back do you want to go?

The Jews are the original Palestinians. Their claim on that land is greater than, above and beyond anyone else's. Regarding giving a state, I'm sure that if giving Palestinians a state were truly the end of it, and they were ready to give a 100% guarantee of cessation of hostilities as Egypt did under Sadat, there are enough Israelis (both in the public and politics) who would gladly give away a separate state today. Unlike the Palestinians, the Israelis are definitely far more rational actors.

But everyone knows that a Palestinian state right next to a Jewish one will NOT be the end of it, the endgame is found in Hamas's charter, you know that just as well as I do.
 

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#19
The Jews are the original Palestinians. Their claim on that land is greater than, above and beyond anyone else's.
Why? Because of the Bible?
Regarding giving a state, I'm sure that if giving Palestinians a state were truly the end of it, and they were ready to give a 100% guarantee of cessation of hostilities as Egypt did under Sadat, there are enough Israelis (both in the public and politics) who would gladly give away a separate state today.
The Israeli do not want peace, they want to continue oppressing Palestinians. They want to keep building settlements. They want to keep military control of the West Bank. Giving the Palestinians a separate state would mean abandoning that, and they do not want to.

Unlike the Palestinians, the Israelis are definitely far more rational actors.
Israeli politics uses a parliamentary model, meaning that forming a government requires forming coalitions. That means that to get a majority, you need to ally yourself with extremists to get the few percents you miss for reaching 50. And that gives an excessive weight to the radical fringe groups that are courted to get majority.

You just need to look at how corrupt Bibi is, and how he maintains power.
But everyone knows that a Palestinian state right next to a Jewish one will NOT be the end of it, the endgame is found in Hamas's charter, you know that just as well as I do.
The Hamas is largely irrelevant; and it only gained power in the first place because Israel used to support it as a way to weaken the Fatah. People who point out the Hamas charter reflexively in any discussion of the Israel/Palestine conflict seem to believe that all Palestinians are hiveminded Hamas drones. On the other hand, whenever an Israeli -- even one in a position of power -- say really hateful things, then they say it's just a lunatic fringe and that the majority of Israeli are not like that. Makes you think.
 

RATHORE

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#20
Why? Because of the Bible?

The Israeli do not want peace, they want to continue oppressing Palestinians. They want to keep building settlements. They want to keep military control of the West Bank. Giving the Palestinians a separate state would mean abandoning that, and they do not want to.


Israeli politics uses a parliamentary model, meaning that forming a government requires forming coalitions. That means that to get a majority, you need to ally yourself with extremists to get the few percents you miss for reaching 50. And that gives an excessive weight to the radical fringe groups that are courted to get majority.

You just need to look at how corrupt Bibi is, and how he maintains power.

The Hamas is largely irrelevant; and it only gained power in the first place because Israel used to support it as a way to weaken the Fatah. People who point out the Hamas charter reflexively in any discussion of the Israel/Palestine conflict seem to believe that all Palestinians are hiveminded Hamas drones. On the other hand, whenever an Israeli -- even one in a position of power -- say really hateful things, then they say it's just a lunatic fringe and that the majority of Israeli are not like that. Makes you think.

1. Nope, because they're the original inhabitants of the land.

2. Not at all. They've stopped settlement building in the past as a unilateral gesture, and the only reason they retained any control over the West Bank is because of the security issues. Also, in a lot of cases, it's Palestinian Authority security forces in charge of the security, not Israeli troops. Your assertion that the Israelis want to "keep oppressing" the Palestinians isn't just pure nonsense, it's also an attempt to smear Jews as some sort of bloodthirsty, oppressive monsters; even though between them and the Arabs/Palestinians, the Jews are the far more tolerant, peaceful and compassionate bunch. Disagree? Take it up with the Arab Israelis who repeatedly respond to polls saying that they would rather live in Israel than a Muslim country, even *if* a Palestinian state were formed.

3. Coalition politics comes with its own compulsions. But the Orthodox fringe rarely gets that much significance, as even if they are significant to complete the coalition, they are still a smaller chunk. As for corruption, unlike the Palestinians and Arabs, I trust Israeli democracy and the justice system to take care of corruption, like it did in the case of former PM Ehud Olmert.

4. If Hamas is in power, has a vast on-ground presence, and enjoys the support of the people of Palestine (especially in its endeavors to kill Jews - a group that most Muslims across the globe are taught to hate from childhood) then they aren't irrelevant. The tidbit about Israel using them to weaken Fatah is a tad oversimplified and a bit out of place here, but yes I'm aware of what you're referring to, that was a strategic error on Israel's part.

5. Palestinians may have varied views and positions, but when it comes to Israel and Jews, forget Palestinians, most Muslims are hiveminded; even educated ones who live in the West and are otherwise liberal. Last of all, you finished with a false equivalence. Both sides absolutely have their own fringes, but it's either incredibly dishonest, or incredibly naive to even begin to claim that their respective fringes are even remotely similar in their extremism and evil, or even remotely comparable in terms of numbers/ratio within general population. It's the same argument people try to make about "Hindu Radicalism" and "Saffron Terror" in India. And it's BS.