Small Arms & Tactical Equipment
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The SIG 716g2 patrol comes with 15inch M-lok hand guard,here are some of its close up photos :
I have no doubts
in my mind that LMT is involved in development of these sniper rifles.However ,as long as SSS defence hold the IPR ,I don't care how and where they develop the platforms. In fact, I think it's the correct approach to involve a seasoned and reputed company like LMT in initial development of the products.
As per this report in Russian media
Россия поставила Индии десятки тысяч автоматов АК-203
in my mind that LMT is involved in development of these sniper rifles.However ,as long as SSS defence hold the IPR ,I don't care how and where they develop the platforms. In fact, I think it's the correct approach to involve a seasoned and reputed company like LMT in initial development of the products.
As per this report in Russian media
Россия поставила Индии десятки тысяч автоматов АК-203
Latest iteration of the MCIWS :
A Multi caliber weapon has been developed through which ammunition of various calibers like 5.56x45mm (INSAS), 7.62x39 mm (AK-47) and newly developed 6.8x43 mm can be fired by changing the Barrel Assembly to meet various tactical requirements of ranges from 100 to 700m.
Previous version of the MCIWS :
And the version that came first, the earliest edition :
I've written about them in detail in post #230 here :
Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) : News and Updates
A Multi caliber weapon has been developed through which ammunition of various calibers like 5.56x45mm (INSAS), 7.62x39 mm (AK-47) and newly developed 6.8x43 mm can be fired by changing the Barrel Assembly to meet various tactical requirements of ranges from 100 to 700m.
Previous version of the MCIWS :
And the version that came first, the earliest edition :
I've written about them in detail in post #230 here :
Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) : News and Updates
@Gautam
This seems to be a representative image rather than an official figure,because the rifle layout does not seem normal.If this was coming from an american manufacturer,I would have still understood given their tendency to innovate,but our guys like to tread on taken paths,something unconventional is not their way(yet).Although in JVPC they did take,but nothing dramatic like this design.
I have read your post regarding MCIWS rifle,though I would agree on most but I would differ on the operating mechanism.As per my observation the initial prototype of MCIWS rifle had a tappet based short stroke operating system.Whereas the later prototype seem to have moved to more traditional piston based short stroke system.
A tappet system differ from the conventional short stroke in a way that it has a cylindrical shaped ,very short piston/tappet with gas sealing ring at front and no return spring,which acts on the operating rod or the extended bolt carrier ,to set the bolt carrier in motion.Since it is such small piece ,which travel a very short distance,it need a lot of pressure to impart the required energy on the operating rod/bolt carrier so that it can cycle normally.Due to this guns with tappet system will have gas block located ,as close to the breech as possible.
Here in the first prototype of mciws you can see that the gas block is 45 degree as well as located quite close to the breech,this is done to ensure that there is enough pressure generated ,to provide the required momentum to the tappet, which can transfer that energy to the bolt carrier for its movement backward.The small gap present also point out to the use of tappet system.
In modern guns scar has a tappet based operating system.
Here is an animation of POF tappet based short stroke piston,which will give you a pretty good idea how it functions.
Now a conventional short stroke piston will have a rod shape long piston ,which will act on the bolt carrier to impart the momentum required to cycle.Compared to tappet this require less energy to set the bolt carrier in motion,hence the gas block is situated further down the barrel .
In later prototype of mciws you can notice that the gas block has been moved further away from the breech and have been changed to 90 degree ,all this will result in lower pressure .This shows that the operating system is no longer based on tappet(which require high pressure) but the traditional short stroke piston(rod shape piston).
P.S It could be a long stroke also,but to me it appear to be a short stroke one.
Regarding AK 200 I got hold of some interesting tidbit,as per someone who was present in the army forum 2019,the day only professionals were allowed.According to him delegation from China,Pakistan and India were showing keen interest in AK 12 and AK 15.He overheard a conversation between the representative of the Kalashnikov and one such delegation,as per it, the representative of Kalashnikov were told by visiting delegation that the accuracy of AK 12 and AK 15 is currently far inferior to the 100 series and more so with the 200 series.To which the representative of the Kalashnikov too admitted that the accuracy is very mediocre compared to the 100th and 200th series.
Here is a sample of accuracy of ak 12 at 100m,when shot by expert marksman.
Ak 12 series is still work in progress.Even though better trigger,muzzle brake ,free floating hand guard and aperture sight should have resulted in better accuracy, but in real world performance it is not so.Basically the sentiment regarding the new AK 12 and AK 15 is not very positive among the Russian gun enthusiast at the moment.There are some other issues as well.
It seem if the option was to choose among 100,200,and 12 the 200th series make the most sense right now.Which is cheaper,more accurate,simple to disassemble.Our representatives have taken the right decision,as far as Russian AK are concerned.
P.s I will be travelling for next few days,so I apologize beforehand ,If I am not able to reply immediately to any query.
This seems to be a representative image rather than an official figure,because the rifle layout does not seem normal.If this was coming from an american manufacturer,I would have still understood given their tendency to innovate,but our guys like to tread on taken paths,something unconventional is not their way(yet).Although in JVPC they did take,but nothing dramatic like this design.
I have read your post regarding MCIWS rifle,though I would agree on most but I would differ on the operating mechanism.As per my observation the initial prototype of MCIWS rifle had a tappet based short stroke operating system.Whereas the later prototype seem to have moved to more traditional piston based short stroke system.
A tappet system differ from the conventional short stroke in a way that it has a cylindrical shaped ,very short piston/tappet with gas sealing ring at front and no return spring,which acts on the operating rod or the extended bolt carrier ,to set the bolt carrier in motion.Since it is such small piece ,which travel a very short distance,it need a lot of pressure to impart the required energy on the operating rod/bolt carrier so that it can cycle normally.Due to this guns with tappet system will have gas block located ,as close to the breech as possible.
Here in the first prototype of mciws you can see that the gas block is 45 degree as well as located quite close to the breech,this is done to ensure that there is enough pressure generated ,to provide the required momentum to the tappet, which can transfer that energy to the bolt carrier for its movement backward.The small gap present also point out to the use of tappet system.
In modern guns scar has a tappet based operating system.
Here is an animation of POF tappet based short stroke piston,which will give you a pretty good idea how it functions.
Now a conventional short stroke piston will have a rod shape long piston ,which will act on the bolt carrier to impart the momentum required to cycle.Compared to tappet this require less energy to set the bolt carrier in motion,hence the gas block is situated further down the barrel .
In later prototype of mciws you can notice that the gas block has been moved further away from the breech and have been changed to 90 degree ,all this will result in lower pressure .This shows that the operating system is no longer based on tappet(which require high pressure) but the traditional short stroke piston(rod shape piston).
P.S It could be a long stroke also,but to me it appear to be a short stroke one.
Regarding AK 200 I got hold of some interesting tidbit,as per someone who was present in the army forum 2019,the day only professionals were allowed.According to him delegation from China,Pakistan and India were showing keen interest in AK 12 and AK 15.He overheard a conversation between the representative of the Kalashnikov and one such delegation,as per it, the representative of Kalashnikov were told by visiting delegation that the accuracy of AK 12 and AK 15 is currently far inferior to the 100 series and more so with the 200 series.To which the representative of the Kalashnikov too admitted that the accuracy is very mediocre compared to the 100th and 200th series.
Here is a sample of accuracy of ak 12 at 100m,when shot by expert marksman.
Ak 12 series is still work in progress.Even though better trigger,muzzle brake ,free floating hand guard and aperture sight should have resulted in better accuracy, but in real world performance it is not so.Basically the sentiment regarding the new AK 12 and AK 15 is not very positive among the Russian gun enthusiast at the moment.There are some other issues as well.
It seem if the option was to choose among 100,200,and 12 the 200th series make the most sense right now.Which is cheaper,more accurate,simple to disassemble.Our representatives have taken the right decision,as far as Russian AK are concerned.
P.s I will be travelling for next few days,so I apologize beforehand ,If I am not able to reply immediately to any query.
@Maximus
You are right about OFB not being innovative enough(or at all). But just like the MSMC/JVPC, the MCIWS is designed by the ARDE and not by any of the OFB.
The photos that I put on the DRDO thread is from an simulation of comfort/dis-comfort of different sized users in the Army. It delves deep into details such as fore and pistol grip position and diameter, sight alignment, stress on neck & shoulders due shooting in various poses etc. I highly doubt anyone would be doing such extensive simulations on ergonomics of a weapon while using a representative model of the weapon. Ergonomics of every weapon is specific to that weapon and it varies greatly from one weapon to another. It just makes no sense to do simulations of ergonomics of one weapon while using the model of another weapon.
For the sake of the argument, I'll attach the document it again : View of Ergonomic Assessment of Multi Calibre Individual Weapon System in Virtual Reality Platform
I would ask you to take your time and go through the document.
Again I agree with you when you say the design is ambitious. But then so was the JVPC. Who would've thought that a weapon with many modern features like the JVPC would be designed in India. Our OFBs have made poor copies of AKs since time immemorial and that became the marker of India's capabilities in small arms design front. The JVPC changed that. Its a modern compact weapon, fires a rather unconventional round, is easily field stripable, can mount optics lasers etc.
My point is, if the ARDE in its first attempt design something like that. I'd like to give them the benefit of doubt that the above models, irrespective of how ambitious, was designed by them. If you look at the second pic on post #786 you will see a clear separation between the upper receiver and the lower receiver(light/dark grey colour). The receiver segments are very similar to the reciever segments of AR-15 type rifles. A lot of American firearm manufacturers makes AR-15 based rifles that provide multi-calibre capability, maybe that's what they are looking at. Instead of re-inventing the wheel, the ARDE seems to be picking up whatever is available in the market already.
But then they seem to be re-inventing the wheel with the UBGL.
I've always thought the MCIWS was a long stroke piston because of this reason. If they are going for short stroke piston that's better.
You are right about OFB not being innovative enough(or at all). But just like the MSMC/JVPC, the MCIWS is designed by the ARDE and not by any of the OFB.
The photos that I put on the DRDO thread is from an simulation of comfort/dis-comfort of different sized users in the Army. It delves deep into details such as fore and pistol grip position and diameter, sight alignment, stress on neck & shoulders due shooting in various poses etc. I highly doubt anyone would be doing such extensive simulations on ergonomics of a weapon while using a representative model of the weapon. Ergonomics of every weapon is specific to that weapon and it varies greatly from one weapon to another. It just makes no sense to do simulations of ergonomics of one weapon while using the model of another weapon.
For the sake of the argument, I'll attach the document it again : View of Ergonomic Assessment of Multi Calibre Individual Weapon System in Virtual Reality Platform
I would ask you to take your time and go through the document.
Again I agree with you when you say the design is ambitious. But then so was the JVPC. Who would've thought that a weapon with many modern features like the JVPC would be designed in India. Our OFBs have made poor copies of AKs since time immemorial and that became the marker of India's capabilities in small arms design front. The JVPC changed that. Its a modern compact weapon, fires a rather unconventional round, is easily field stripable, can mount optics lasers etc.
My point is, if the ARDE in its first attempt design something like that. I'd like to give them the benefit of doubt that the above models, irrespective of how ambitious, was designed by them. If you look at the second pic on post #786 you will see a clear separation between the upper receiver and the lower receiver(light/dark grey colour). The receiver segments are very similar to the reciever segments of AR-15 type rifles. A lot of American firearm manufacturers makes AR-15 based rifles that provide multi-calibre capability, maybe that's what they are looking at. Instead of re-inventing the wheel, the ARDE seems to be picking up whatever is available in the market already.
But then they seem to be re-inventing the wheel with the UBGL.
I've always thought the MCIWS was a long stroke piston because of this reason. If they are going for short stroke piston that's better.
@Gautam I was talking about ARDE guys only,as they are the one responsible for R&D in small arms in our country,the main task of OFB is production not R&D.The shoddy state of small arms in our country can also be attributed to the lack of synergy between these two agencies.
By representative image ,I meant this :
The sight radius,rail system,general design is not cohesive in this one.Whereas the design below is a traditional layout and I have not questioned nor have any doubt that it is a actual prototype design :
Having said that ,my wish list will be a new stock design instead of this ar stock,most probably a mix of acr ,scar,cz bren 2 stock with integrated cheek rest. Hand guard should be m-lok ,magazine should be polymer with windows ,like ak 12.A non reciprocating side /front charging handle.Free float barrel,ambidextrous safety and mag release.Option for 6.5 Grendel.Operating mechanism should be short stroke with rotating bolt.
This is official specification of AK 203 from Rosoboronexport website :
Cartridge type
7.62x39 mm
Caliber mm
7.62
Muzzle velocity, m / s
715
Sighting range, m
800
Rate of fire, rds / min
700
Length in combat position with min / max butt length
890/950
Length of machine with folded butt
700
Barrel length
415
The number of grooves
four
Weight machine with an empty magazine
3.8
Size of butt length adjustment / adjustment step, mm
60/20
Range direct shot at the chest target, m
350
Magazine capacity
thirty
The mass of the store, kg
0.25
7,62 мм автомат Калашникова АК-203 | Каталог Рособоронэкспорт
By representative image ,I meant this :
The sight radius,rail system,general design is not cohesive in this one.Whereas the design below is a traditional layout and I have not questioned nor have any doubt that it is a actual prototype design :
Having said that ,my wish list will be a new stock design instead of this ar stock,most probably a mix of acr ,scar,cz bren 2 stock with integrated cheek rest. Hand guard should be m-lok ,magazine should be polymer with windows ,like ak 12.A non reciprocating side /front charging handle.Free float barrel,ambidextrous safety and mag release.Option for 6.5 Grendel.Operating mechanism should be short stroke with rotating bolt.
This is official specification of AK 203 from Rosoboronexport website :
Cartridge type
7.62x39 mm
Caliber mm
7.62
Muzzle velocity, m / s
715
Sighting range, m
800
Rate of fire, rds / min
700
Length in combat position with min / max butt length
890/950
Length of machine with folded butt
700
Barrel length
415
The number of grooves
four
Weight machine with an empty magazine
3.8
Size of butt length adjustment / adjustment step, mm
60/20
Range direct shot at the chest target, m
350
Magazine capacity
thirty
The mass of the store, kg
0.25
7,62 мм автомат Калашникова АК-203 | Каталог Рособоронэкспорт
Oh......my bad then. Apologies for the long rant.@Gautam I was talking about ARDE guys only,as they are the one responsible for R&D in small arms in our country,the main task of OFB is production not R&D.The shoddy state of small arms in our country can also be attributed to the lack of synergy between these two agencies.
By representative image ,I meant this :
The sight radius,rail system,general design is not cohesive in this one.Whereas the design below is a traditional layout and I have not questioned nor have any doubt that it is a actual prototype design :
Ooof.......that would be one heck of a weapon. I doubt ARDE would be able to pull it off.
I'll bet SSS Defence can make a new assault rifle with a new chassis. Those guys recently started working on a 7.62R assault rifle. Apparently with a short stroke piston driven rotating bolt mechanism. Ambidextrous controls, M-LOK rails, trigger group to be similar to the SCAR. This gun will be in 7.62R but the chassis will be common for other calibre options. Its still in its early prototype stages and will need at least a year and a half to go anywhere near its final shape.
Right now it looks like this :
The reason for its resemblance to an AK is because of the calibre. This body type is proven with 7.62R and it thus reduces the variables when trying out a newer firing mechanism(remember the AK uses long stroke piston driven mechanism). If they can evolve this gun the way they evolved their sniper chassis, its very likely that they will end up making the gun that you described in your wish list(well except maybe the windowed magazines and of course assuming the Army wants a 6.5 grandel gun).
With their sniper rifles they have certainly raised my expectations.
Eitherway, SSS defence is unlikely to get a contract from IA for more than a couple of reasons. They won't offer the required kickbacks to IA's top brass like foreign firms do coupled with IA's love for foreign maal. A contract for 650k AK's have been signed with an additional option to purchase 100k more and a factory has been built in Amethi for the same. 650k ARs would suffice all frontline troops while reserves and those posted in interiors would make do with the current INSAS or AKs. Also, if you take a look at the artillery systems/armoured carriers/IFVs that private Indian defence firms like Tata, Kalyani, L&T, Mahindra developed...not even a single platform has been fully tested let alone being considered for induction.
Bangalore based Tonbo imaging systems products were first recognized by IA during some exercise with a NATO country I guess but still haven't been put to trails. Only MKU's helments were procured in limited numbers
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For assault rifles ? Probably. They might get a contract for snipers though. Why do you think they are going on a media blitz with their snipers recently ? They are trying to create a favorable opinion for themselves by putting out their product to the media first and the customers later. Given the PMs stated push for "Make in India", they are utilizing that to create pressure on the customers. It might just work, at least I hope it does.
Oh and while we are on the subject of kick backs and favours, you think Indian companies don't do that only foreign companies do ? DPSUs don't, they are corrupt but corrupt in a different way. DPSUs feel like they are doing the military a favour by designing and building weapons for them and the military should be grateful, that's also a problem but a different problem. Private companies on the other hand need no lessons on buying some favour.
There is a possibility that SSS Defence might take the same path. Just like exporting to some NATO military(It was the US spec ops) earned Tonbo Imagining a name and reputation, it might just be that the first customer for SSS Defence will be from abroad.
Respectfully disagree, A piston operated PDW is just stupid. But that is just my opinion.
Fair enough. What mechanism do you prefer in a PDW ? Please don't say direct gas impingement.
The point I was making was that the Indian PDW scene isn't as broad as many other countries. The only options we have is the IWI Uzi and the recently brought B&T Mp9. In this company, unless I need to be quiet, I'd take a JVPC over the other two. But then I am no expert.
Blow Back, that what UZI's are, thats what BT APC 9 is, that's how even Mp5, the most prolific SMG/PDW ever made is a blowback design, albeit roller delayed.
Using long-stroke gas piston for building a PDW is just lazy.
P.S not just that, 5.56x30mm minsas is a stupid round
Thank god I was expecting to read DI.
Sort of agree with that. Blow back is just mechanically simpler and thus less likely to fail. Using a piston driven mechanism, that too a long-stroke one just reduces the rate of fire significantly without bringing in any significant benefits. PDWs are all about rate of fire, as such a long stroke piston is counter-productive.
Although in a way its good that the JVPC isn't spitting out bullets any faster. With a larger round and more recoil, the gun would stray off target too quickly with a faster rate of fire. Maybe this is why the Army never liked it.
Aw come on. This is our first attempt at making our own "special" rounds. Speaking of which, wasn't Colt working on the same round before they gave up ? Well finders keepers then.
5.56 x45 mm for it's age is a great cartridge , its main advantage being extremely fast and flat shooting.
When you shorten a round like 5.56x30, you basically cut down it’s energy to propel itself by 33%, it’s like taking an Amitabh Bachhan and cutting him down to the size of an Asrani. The good people at ARDE tried a’la 5.7x28 FN, without the adequate engineering in the bullet design, rather taking the soviet approach of 7.62x54R to 7.62x39 chop off, even then 7.62x39 went through a different crimp and primer upgrade in 1944 iirc. Effort was again lazy, and the result is taking power off a round which is high velocity and poor dia, now you end up with poor velocity and poor Dia.
Snipers is a possibility but maybe in limited numbers. As for their media blitz, even MKU, Tonbo and the biggies were all over the media when their products came to limelight but faded out eventually and this was when "MII" was at it's peak
I'm not denying Indian companies offer kickbacks but definitely not on a scale of how foreign firms offer along with their strong lobbyists. For instance, Kalyani's ULH was almost on par with M777 in terms of firing range, caliber, rounds per minute and within the lift capacity of a Chinook but IA still wants to induct more M777s
40,000 indigenous bulletproof jackets supplied to Indian Army
ANI
Updated : 19th October 2019 00:11 IST
Major-General Anil Oberoi (Retd) talking to ANI in New Delhi on Friday.
The Indian Army has been supplied 40,000 indigenous bulletproof jackets for its troops carrying out anti-terror operations in the Kashmir valley.
"We are hopeful that we will deliver the order of bulletproof jackets for the Army well ahead of time," said Major-General Anil Oberoi (Retd) of SMPP Pvt Ltd, which has developed these indigenous bulletproof jackets.
"In the first year, we were supposed to supply 36,000 jackets but we are ahead of time and we have supplied 40,000 jackets to Indian Army," he said talking to ANI here on Friday.
"We have to complete this order by 2021, but we are hopeful to complete it by the end of 2020," he said.
Last year, the Ministry of Defence had awarded the contract to provide more than 1.8 lakh bulletproof jackets to the indigenous manufacturer SMPP Limited.
The jackets are being supplied to the Central Ordnance Depot in Kanpur from where they will be sent to Jammu and Kashmir and other violence-affected areas.
Oberoi claimed that the bulletproof jackets can withstand hardcore steel ammunition fired from an AK-47 rifle. "Our jackets are so strong that they can take on the most dangerous ammunition from AK-47. It is known as the hard steel core ammunition which has got great penetrative power. Our jacket can absorb its impact," he said.
"We have also produced helmets that can protect soldiers against AK-47 hard steel core ammunition. It will also have a facial visor. We will save the life of our soldier from head to toe," Oberoi said.
Oberoi informed that the company's helmets were already in use various armed forces in India namely the Central Reserve Police Force. (ANI)
40,000 indigenous bulletproof jackets supplied to Indian Army
ANI
Updated : 19th October 2019 00:11 IST
Major-General Anil Oberoi (Retd) talking to ANI in New Delhi on Friday.
The Indian Army has been supplied 40,000 indigenous bulletproof jackets for its troops carrying out anti-terror operations in the Kashmir valley.
"We are hopeful that we will deliver the order of bulletproof jackets for the Army well ahead of time," said Major-General Anil Oberoi (Retd) of SMPP Pvt Ltd, which has developed these indigenous bulletproof jackets.
"In the first year, we were supposed to supply 36,000 jackets but we are ahead of time and we have supplied 40,000 jackets to Indian Army," he said talking to ANI here on Friday.
"We have to complete this order by 2021, but we are hopeful to complete it by the end of 2020," he said.
Last year, the Ministry of Defence had awarded the contract to provide more than 1.8 lakh bulletproof jackets to the indigenous manufacturer SMPP Limited.
The jackets are being supplied to the Central Ordnance Depot in Kanpur from where they will be sent to Jammu and Kashmir and other violence-affected areas.
Oberoi claimed that the bulletproof jackets can withstand hardcore steel ammunition fired from an AK-47 rifle. "Our jackets are so strong that they can take on the most dangerous ammunition from AK-47. It is known as the hard steel core ammunition which has got great penetrative power. Our jacket can absorb its impact," he said.
"We have also produced helmets that can protect soldiers against AK-47 hard steel core ammunition. It will also have a facial visor. We will save the life of our soldier from head to toe," Oberoi said.
Oberoi informed that the company's helmets were already in use various armed forces in India namely the Central Reserve Police Force. (ANI)
40,000 indigenous bulletproof jackets supplied to Indian Army
New model of the 7.62 NATO sniper from SSS Defence :
Featuring :
Uni-body chassis construction.
Lighter 1913 rail set up.
Upgraded stock with 1913 rails for rear stand.
New muzzle brake which probably allows mounting of suppressor without needing to remove the brake.
Newer magazine well with guides.
Featuring :
Uni-body chassis construction.
Lighter 1913 rail set up.
Upgraded stock with 1913 rails for rear stand.
New muzzle brake which probably allows mounting of suppressor without needing to remove the brake.
Newer magazine well with guides.