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Falcon

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But I concede I know too less to draw any conclusions, I am just passing the time entertaining myself and hopefully you along the way.:whistle:
Oh, you know quite a lot, I am sure. I can see that. And no, it is not about entertaining but about learning the best we can. I hope that you do not take my observations in any negative sense.
 

Gautam

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Oh, you know quite a lot, I am sure. I can see that. And no, it is not about entertaining but about learning the best we can. I hope that you do not take my observations in any negative sense.
Not at all. In fact, conversations like these are what made me join the debate. Previously I was only a lurker, now an active participant. I know, revolutionary right ?:D
 

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Not at all. In fact, conversations like these are what made me join the debate. Previously I was only a lurker, now an active participant. I know, revolutionary right ?:D

Great. Contribute. And for any such conversations, you have got @Parthu and @Milspec. @Abingdonboy is busy with his exams and that is understandable. Another is @Ankit Kumar. And when you feel depressed, feel free to engage @randomradio for any topic, he is the epitome of optimism (if you don't believe ask @_Anonymous_ ;))
 

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Great. Contribute. And for any such conversations, you have got @Parthu and @Milspec. @Abingdonboy is busy with his exams and that is understandable. Another is @Ankit Kumar. And when you feel depressed, feel free to engage @randomradio for any topic, he is the epitome of optimism (if you don't believe ask @_Anonymous_ ;))
So optimistic, in fact, that he'd convince you the facts staring you in the face are not wrong but your perspective is and he'd introduce you to his perspective which I'm sure you'd be convinced of. @Sancho is the very anti thesis of randomradio.

Finally there's @Guynextdoor . A cautionary tale of what you ought to avoid in your middle age
 

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So optimistic, in fact, that he'd convince you the facts staring you in the face are not wrong but your perspective is and he'd introduce you to his perspective which I'm sure you'd be convinced of. @Sancho is the very anti thesis of randomradio.

Finally there's @Guynextdoor . A cautionary tale of what you ought to avoid in your middle age
What's your interest in Small Arms and Tactical Equipment Tau? Teaching Basanti the art of self defence?
 

Gautam

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1552409088101.png

West Bengal Police COMBAT BATTALION. Credit in pic.
Those FAB defence uppers look pretty cool. Are they uppers though ? more like dust covers. Not sure about mounting the red dot sight so far behind. It can have negative impact on your shooting stance, not to mention being unable to hold sight picture. If more magnified image is needed then a hybrid sight is a better choice.
 

Milspec

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View attachment 4926
West Bengal Police COMBAT BATTALION. Credit in pic.
Those FAB defence uppers look pretty cool. Are they uppers though ? more like dust covers. Not sure about mounting the red dot sight so far behind. It can have negative impact on your shooting stance, not to mention being unable to hold sight picture. If more magnified image is needed then a hybrid sight is a better choice.
not an upper, just a dust cover.

mounting a red dot is to preference, some people mount red dots on the pic rail above the gas block, some people like it closer. It shouldn't effect the sight picture. Which red dot is that?
 

Parthu

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Thank you for the pics. SG is wearing revision, Ghatak using Team Wendy and Marcos ? What are they using ?
Not sure about the make and model. But the shell appears to be a non-standard form factor, not the likes of which are available from OpsCore, Revision, 3M, Crye Precision, Militech, Pro-Tec etc.

There is no crying need for branded ones anyway. By the way how much did they cost ?
The ones I bought were under a thousand. You can find ones cheaper & much costlier as well.

Somehow I believe the problem is in lack of understanding of underlying reasons for using a certain gear over others. As you pointed out about the lack of ear protection but adoption of high cuts runs counter to each other. I am pretty sure there would be such a problem again about adoption of sound suppressors. A lot of military units(SoF i mean) are using suppressed guns as standard issue and using subsonic ammo for stealth takedown, whereas we use un-suppressed guns as standard and suppressed for stealth. I don't think we even use subsonics at all. Correct me if I am wrong.
I know least about the ammo we use. But pretty much all of it is OFB-made. Yes, it definitely makes sense to use subsonic ammo on a suppressed firearm, but like I said, I'm not aware of whether we use it or not.

But the thing is, provided you already have supersonic rounds on hand, with just a little bit of infrastructure (a reloading press, a die set for the rounds in question, and an electronic scale for precise measurement of powder), one can make subsonic ammo. Not sure if SFs would be big on handloads (usually that's for civilian shooters who want to save a buck on buying brand-new cartridges) though.

View attachment 4926
West Bengal Police COMBAT BATTALION. Credit in pic.
Those FAB defence uppers look pretty cool. Are they uppers though ? more like dust covers. Not sure about mounting the red dot sight so far behind. It can have negative impact on your shooting stance, not to mention being unable to hold sight picture. If more magnified image is needed then a hybrid sight is a better choice.
Like Milspec just said, they're just dust covers. The gun will still function without it. And like he said, it's upto the shooter to choose what distance from eye is comfortable for him.

not an upper, just a dust cover.

mounting a red dot is to preference, some people mount red dots on the pic rail above the gas block, some people like it closer. It shouldn't effect the sight picture. Which red dot is that?
FALKE LE QL (Gen 1)

 

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So optimistic, in fact, that he'd convince you the facts staring you in the face are not wrong but your perspective is and he'd introduce you to his perspective which I'm sure you'd be convinced of. @Sancho is the very anti thesis of randomradio.

Finally there's @Guynextdoor . A cautionary tale of what you ought to avoid in your middle age
Facts are different from the application of facts in context.

One can learn about gravity without having an apple fall on their heads. All they need is a little... push. ;)
 

Gautam

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not an upper, just a dust cover.
I figured that. Its just a kit after all, doesn't change how an AK works.
mounting a red dot is to preference, some people mount red dots on the pic rail above the gas block, some people like it closer. It shouldn't effect the sight picture. Which red dot is that?
Sure you can mount a sight where ever you want. That right there is the whole point of the full sized 1913 rail on the FAB cover. My only gripe is the likely outcome of improper mount position.

Mount a optic too far forward and it will make your gun forward heavy(assuming your gun is not a bulllpup setup and your optic isn't too lightweight) but on the positive side it will give you excellent situational awareness and unobstructed forward sector view. Ideal for short range encounters where pin point accuracy isn't nearly as important as rapid target engagement and quick switching between targets. Which is probably why the MARCOS do it.

Mount an optic too far back and suddenly you have to deal with the height of the optic. The FALKE LE QL (Gen 1) as @Parthu identified, you have to agree is a fairly tall sight. That height will be a problem if don't have any proper cheek weld to go with. The AK family is a fairly "kicky" rifle family, with out a cheek support you are left hanging in the air trying to aim down the sight of a high recoil gun. After every burst of fire you will have to work to regain the sight picture and fire again. Now obviously the fore grip is very beneficial as it will significantly reduce barrel climb. But still over all it sounds like an iffy proposition to me. But again all this may not matter at all, as you said it is still very much a personal choice.

I have read somewhere(I don't remember where) that the ideal place to mount a red dot reflex sight in a conventional set up gun would be slightly behind the chamber of the gun. Apparently, if you have a gun properly shouldered(1st pivot point) and with a fore grip(2nd pivot point) then the most stable part of the gun is likely to be the center of mass between the two pivots. The center of mass is likely to be around the chamber and the mag. That area simply because of the weight is likely to show the least deflection(both vertical and lateral). I don't if any of it is true. But somehow I am inclined to believe it.

Wait, you own a gun right ? What gun is it ? Where do you mount your red dot ? If you had that AK in the pic where would you mount the sight and why ?
I know least about the ammo we use. But pretty much all of it is OFB-made. Yes, it definitely makes sense to use subsonic ammo on a suppressed firearm, but like I said, I'm not aware of whether we use it or not.
Forget usage sir, does the ofb even make any subsonics ? I see some pics of SF guys with crossbows and whatnot, it seems to me that some good quality subsonic 5.56 Nato ammo with a suppressed gun can do that job easily, rapidly, accurately and without leaving any arrows sticking out of targets.
 

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Sure you can mount a sight where ever you want. That right there is the whole point of the full sized 1913 rail on the FAB cover. My only gripe is the likely outcome of improper mount position.
If I hazard a guess and say the knowledge-base of the armorers (or even many of the officers) in the CAPFs (or other services for that matter) is not that great, I probably won't be off the mark most of the time. Usually, when one of these men ends up being an expert in these things, it is probably owing to their learning off of their own volition rather than what is taught to them. Special Forces are a different thing though.

The level of proficiency with regard to firearms and related equipment in the country is not up to the level I would have liked. I've personally known an IPS officer who's a family friend who identified an Excalibur MK-1 with an OFB-made 2.5x scope as an "AK-47 with lens". But this is not to say all IPS officers are like that - there are many who are extremely proficient. But like I said, because of the fact that this knowledge is acquired out of their own interest & volition, instead of being academically taught to them, you see such great discrepancies in the knowledge-base of one officer to the next.

Part of that can be attributed to the fact that the civilian population of India get so little exposure to these things in their usual walks of life, given the laws surrounding gun ownership or the availability of public shooting ranges where real guns can be used for recreational purposes. For an overwhelming majority of servicemen, their first experience with firearms is only after they take the decision to join a service (military or law enforcement).

But a knowledge-base does not spring out of existence even in a professional service. The older cadres teach the newer ones what they've learnt from their seniors. So it's a very hit and miss with regard to this type of knowledge. A good teacher more often than not results in a good student, and the opposite with regard to a not so great teacher.

Mount a optic too far forward and it will make your gun forward heavy(assuming your gun is not a bulllpup setup and your optic isn't too lightweight) but on the positive side it will give you excellent situational awareness and unobstructed forward sector view. Ideal for short range encounters where pin point accuracy isn't nearly as important as rapid target engagement and quick switching between targets. Which is probably why the MARCOS do it.
There is no service-wide adoption of any one method or point of placement for the optic. It's a very personal choice. Like you said, there are advantages and disadvantages with regard to each type of placement, and their results can only be figured first-hand if the shooter puts in enough range time or kill house courses, and decides on what suits him best. For example, these MARCOS decided that an optic mounted closer to the center mass suits them better -




Mount an optic too far back and suddenly you have to deal with the height of the optic. The FALKE LE QL (Gen 1) as @Parthu identified, you have to agree is a fairly tall sight. That height will be a problem if don't have any proper cheek weld to go with. The AK family is a fairly "kicky" rifle family, with out a cheek support you are left hanging in the air trying to aim down the sight of a high recoil gun. After every burst of fire you will have to work to regain the sight picture and fire again. Now obviously the fore grip is very beneficial as it will significantly reduce barrel climb. But still over all it sounds like an iffy proposition to me. But again all this may not matter at all, as you said it is still very much a personal choice.
Actually, if you go back a few pages, you'll see that we've had a conversation regarding exactly this issue with the AK - see if you can glean something from there. ;)

Forget usage sir, does the ofb even make any subsonics ?


I see some pics of SF guys with crossbows and whatnot, it seems to me that some good quality subsonic 5.56 Nato ammo with a suppressed gun can do that job easily, rapidly, accurately and without leaving any arrows sticking out of targets.
Have seen the same and I have to say its fairly an experimental usage at best. Para SFs (and others) certainly prefer a suppressed Tavor or M4A1 for quite ops. And it would be fairly reasonable to assume they use subsonic rounds when this is the case, although I personally haven't seen any evidence to that effect.
 
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Gautam

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If I hazard a guess and say the knowledge-base of the armorers (or even many of the officers) in the CAPFs (or other services for that matter) is not that great, I probably won't be off the mark most of the time. Usually, when one of these men ends up being an expert in these things, it is probably owing to their learning off of their own volition rather than what is taught to them. Special Forces are a different thing though.

The level of proficiency with regard to firearms and related equipment in the country is not up to the level I would have liked. I've personally known an IPS officer who's a family friend who identified an Excalibur MK-1 with an OFB-made 2.5x scope as an "AK-47 with lens". But this is not to say all IPS officers are like that - there are many who are extremely proficient. But like I said, because of the fact that this knowledge is acquired out of their own interest & volition, instead of being academically taught to them, you see such great discrepancies in the knowledge-base of one officer to the next.

Part of that can be attributed to the fact that the civilian population of India get so little exposure to these things in their usual walks of life, given the laws surrounding gun ownership or the availability of public shooting ranges where real guns can be used for recreational purposes. For an overwhelming majority of servicemen, their first experience with firearms is only after they take the decision to join a service (military or law enforcement).

But a knowledge-base does not spring out of existence even in a professional service. The older cadres teach the newer ones what they've learnt from their seniors. So it's a very hit and miss with regard to this type of knowledge. A good teacher more often than not results in a good student, and vice versa.
Truer words haven't been said. Preach my brother, preach.
There is no service-wide adoption of any one method or point of placement for the optic. It's a very personal choice. Like you said, there are advantages and disadvantages with regard to each type of placement, and their results can only be figured first-hand if the shooter puts in enough range time or kill house courses, and decides on what suits him best. For example, these MARCOS decided that an optic mounted closer to the center mass suits them better -
Agreed. There was a video put out by the navy that showed MARCOS with forward mounted red dot sights. So yeah, very much a personal choice.
Actually, if you go back a few pages, you'll see that we've had a conversation regarding exactly this issue with the AK - see if you can glean something from there. ;)
Wilco.
Have seen the same and I have to say its fairly an experimental usage at best. Para SFs (and others) certainly prefer a suppressed Tavor or M4A1 for quite ops. And it would be fairly reasonable to assume they use subsonic rounds when this is the case, although I personally haven't seen any evidence to that effect.
I have seen suppressed M4A1s in service with Paras, MP5SSD etc but never a suppressed Tavor TAR-21. Have you ?
 

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Don't think this has been posted before. Mods, please delete if its a repeat post.
1552457719222.png

0.338 Lapua Magnum Sniper Rifle by SS-LMT. Developed specifically to compete in the Indian Army's tender for 0.338 Lapua Magnum chambered sniper rifle. Keep in mind the recently acquired Vitrix Armaments Scorpio TCT Sniper(http://www.victrixarmaments.com/portfolio/scorpiotct/?lang=en) is only a fast tract acquisition meant to fulfill urgent needs. It is not a standard issue sniper.
1552458535503.png


Now to get in on some details about the SS-LMT. Let me just post the picture again. Sorry just makes it easier to type about it if I am looking at it.
1552458957179.png

1. The scope I believe is a German Schmidt and Bender made.
2. The stock appears to be a side folding stock. Adjustable cheek weld and butt pad, I can see no rear stand or 1913 rails for it.
3. M-LOK rails all over the place. Great from weight shedding POV. There seems to be a 1913 rail on the M-LOK at 6 o clock for bi pods. Bi pods look well built. No idea who made them.
4. Magazine looks like polymer(hard to say really). Possibly a 10 round magazine with cross stacked bullets. Pistol grip looks straight out of the AR family.
5. Notice right in front of the magazine well there seems to be a position for grip. Possibly rubberized, to be used for grip during shooting while standing or sitting. It can also be used for carrying the rifle as well. Accuracy International AX-50 rifles uses a similar concept.
6. The whole body of the rifle(except a few parts) is essentially the same piece of metal(uni-body construction), this significantly reduces the no. joints,rivets, screws,welds needed in the construction. Dramatically reducing weight and increasing reliability.
7. The most important part. The chamber,bolt and barrel are not a part of this uni-body. This creates a floating barrel effect, that increases accuracy compared to the traditional design. LMT always make sure their rifles are multicaliber. Here all you have to do is change the barrel,bolt and you have a different caliber good to go. The possibilities are endless : 0.308 Norma Magnum, 0.338 Norma Magnum, 0.358 Norma Magnum, 0.375 Cheytac, creedmore 6.5 etc
8. What the hell's up with that barrel though. Looks like chrome plated or something. This is not a bathroom tap, you know. Anyway, I dont see any muzzle brake. Is that a good idea ? 0.338 Lapua is a powerful round. I don't see any threads on the barrel either, so maybe that black thing at the end is the muzzle brake.:confused:

This pic came around in some defence forums around October 2018. It was said at that time that this has gone for trials along with the AK upgrade kit from SS-LMT.
1552462101386.png

1552462128316.png
1552462309443.png

From October till March is almost 5 months. Enough time to build a range table, map out ballistic characteristics of the 0.338 LM. Recently there has been numerous reports Pakistani soldiers killed by snipers on LoC. I reckon its the scorpio tct. what do you guy think ? @Milspec @Parthu
 
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Milspec

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The level of proficiency with regard to firearms and related equipment in the country is not up to the level I would have liked. I've personally known an IPS officer who's a family friend who identified an Excalibur MK-1 with an OFB-made 2.5x scope as an "AK-47 with lens". But this is not to say all IPS officers are like that - there are many who are extremely proficient. But like I said, because of the fact that this knowledge is acquired out of their own interest & volition, instead of being academically taught to them, you see such great discrepancies in the knowledge-base of one officer to the next.
law enforcement is a mixed bunch,
Sub inspector of police, accidental discharge while trying to discipline school kids who were loitering near the school. This guy drew his ofb made hi power clone, and almost blew his foot off. Also my dad told me about this SP's encounter during peak naxal insurgency in West bengal, who took the rifle from a constable , and put two round on a moving target, open sights at 300 yards, while being out of breath.

Part of that can be attributed to the fact that the civilian population of India get so little exposure to these things in their usual walks of life, given the laws surrounding gun ownership or the availability of public shooting ranges where real guns can be used for recreational purposes. For an overwhelming majority of servicemen, their first experience with firearms is only after they take the decision to join a service (military or law enforcement).
Idea of RKBA has failed in India; the ones who do talk about it will be labelled nuts by the most. That is a lost battle, you can see it on this thread too.

But a knowledge-base does not spring out of existence even in a professional service. The older cadres teach the newer ones what they've learnt from their seniors. So it's a very hit and miss with regard to this type of knowledge. A good teacher more often than not results in a good student, and the opposite with regard to a not so great teacher.
If we can churn good fast bowlers in India from MRF pace foundation, maybe setting up marksmanship schools led by guest trainers from around the world should be a no brainier for Indian military and law enforcement.
 

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Idea of RKBA has failed in India; the ones who do talk about it will be labelled nuts by the most. That is a lost battle, you can see it on this thread too.


If we can churn good fast bowlers in India from MRF pace foundation, maybe setting up marksmanship schools led by guest trainers from around the world should be a no brainier for Indian military and law enforcement.

I've a different take on it. Of late, India has won a no of medals in shooting championships across the world including the Olympics. Now it's not a sport many in India can afford. Why can't the GoI step in to promote this sport. I'm not sure if an ordinary shooting pistol at such events can be used as a weapon. Otherwise, the GoI in order to promote the sport can incentivise such pistol manufacturers and reduce the cost of it by reducing / abolishing govt levies, opening up more shooting ranges, etc.
 

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Don't think this has been posted before. Mods, please delete if its a repeat post.
View attachment 4929
0.338 Lapua Magnum Sniper Rifle by SS-LMT. Developed specifically to compete in the Indian Army's tender for 0.338 Lapua Magnum chambered sniper rifle. Keep in mind the recently acquired Vitrix Armaments Scorpio TCT Sniper(http://www.victrixarmaments.com/portfolio/scorpiotct/?lang=en) is only a fast tract acquisition meant to fulfill urgent needs. It is not a standard issue sniper.
View attachment 4930

Now to get in on some details about the SS-LMT. Let me just post the picture again. Sorry just makes it easier to type about it if I am looking at it.
View attachment 4931
1. The scope I believe is a German Schmidt and Bender made.
2. The stock appears to be a side folding stock. Adjustable cheek weld and butt pad, I can see no rear stand or 1913 rails for it.
3. M-LOK rails all over the place. Great from weight shedding POV. There seems to be a 1913 rail on the M-LOK at 6 o clock for bi pods. Bi pods look well built. No idea who made them.
4. Magazine looks like polymer(hard to say really). Possibly a 10 round magazine with cross stacked bullets. Pistol grip looks straight out of the AR family.
5. Notice right in front of the magazine well there seems to be a position for grip. Possibly rubberized, to be used for grip during shooting while standing or sitting. It can also be used for carrying the rifle as well. Accuracy International AX-50 rifles uses a similar concept.
6. The whole body of the rifle(except a few parts) is essentially the same piece of metal(uni-body construction), this significantly reduces the no. joints,rivets, screws,welds needed in the construction. Dramatically reducing weight and increasing reliability.
7. The most important part. The chamber,bolt and barrel are not a part of this uni-body. This creates a floating barrel effect, that increases accuracy compared to the traditional design. LMT always make sure their rifles are multicaliber. Here all you have to do is change the barrel,bolt and you have a different caliber good to go. The possibilities are endless : 0.308 Norma Magnum, 0.338 Norma Magnum, 0.358 Norma Magnum, 0.375 Cheytac, creedmore 6.5 etc
8. What the hell's up with that barrel though. Looks like chrome plated or something. This is not a bathroom tap, you know. Anyway, I dont see any muzzle brake. Is that a good idea ? 0.338 Lapua is a powerful round. I don't see any threads on the barrel either, so maybe that black thing at the end is the muzzle brake.:confused:
Hmm...I didn't think LMT marketed sniper rifles. Their US website makes no mention of the same. Perhaps still a prototype.

This pic came around in some defence forums around October 2018. It was said at that time that this has gone for trials along with the AK upgrade kit from SS-LMT.
View attachment 4933
View attachment 4934 View attachment 4935
Like I said earlier in the thread:

" SS-LMT also had offers for kits for AKs, haven't seen any of those in service, either. "

The LMT AK kits have been trialed, but not aware of anyone adopting the same. On the other hand, FAB Defense kits are selling like hot cakes.

From October till March is almost 5 months. Enough time to build a range table, map out ballistic characteristics of the 0.338 LM. Recently there has been numerous reports Pakistani soldiers killed by snipers on LoC. I reckon its the scorpio tct. what do you guy think ? @Milspec @Parthu
I can attest to the fact that the Scorpio TCT has indeed seen usage at the LoC. It would be reasonable to assume they may have racked up some kills - but cannot determine for sure until and unless someone comes out with a story of how they shot a pakistani with a Scorpio.

If we can churn good fast bowlers in India from MRF pace foundation, maybe setting up marksmanship schools led by guest trainers from around the world should be a no brainier for Indian military and law enforcement.
Yes - and also even the daily-duty cops need to have access to better firing ranges where they can hone their skills and remain familiar with their weapon. There are cases where a Policeman hadn't fired a round since passing out of training, and they go on to serve 15-20 years without firing a round or keeping their weapon serviceable.

I've seen some (dangerously funny) videos where a higher-up decides to drop by and do surprise inspections of armories and service weapons. The condition of some weapons were so deteriorated that it was impossible to rack the slide on the HP copies (Pistol, Auto 9mm 1A).

Privately-held firing ranges meant to allow Policemen to come and practice under a govt contract should be a reality. I've had the idea for a long time. Especially given the govt. isn't likely to bother about the marksmanship skills of duty cops. But I'm doubtful about the economic viability of such a private venture....which is why I like the idea of a dual-use firing range. Should be open to civilians on atleast some days of the week where they can come, pay a fee and shoot one of the guns available at the range.

But the govt regulations and laws surrounding such activity I believe are all mostly still centered around British-era colonial thinking, where the emphasis is on keeping power or accessibility to firearms away from the reach of the common public. It's a frustratingly outdated thinking...even the ultra-liberal Scandinavian or European countries do not have such strict laws concerning firearms. A misguided policy we are following I would say.
 

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Chinese materials find way into army bulletproof vests

China may be standing in the way of a United Nations ban on terrorist leader Masood Azhar but its companies are getting a large chunk of the Rs 639-crore Indian Army order for new bulletproof jackets. Chinese companies are now the main overseas raw material source for the 180,000-jacket order after Indian company SMPP changed its suppliers after winning the bid in April last year. 40% of the jacket material, comprising fabric and boron carbide powder, are being imported from China. During the selection process, SMPP presented jackets that contained raw material from western sources in Europe and the US but changed its suppliers after winning the contract. The company said this will make no difference to the product. At least Rs 26 crore have been paid to a set of Chinese companies operating in Beijing’s Changping district by SMPP since it won the order last year and that the material has been delivered to the Indian company at its manufacturing unit. The first batch of 10,000 jackets are being accepted after a series of firing tests to check for quality. Defending the change of suppliers, SMPP said it had driven down costs by going directly to the manufacturers of the material instead of western suppliers that were getting it from the same source. “Even during the testing phase, five out of the 10 competitors had jackets with Chinese materials. They were not disqualified for that reason,” Kansal said. The biggest of the four suppliers – Beijing Protech New Material Science Company Ltd – said in its profile that the company was started in 2003 and that its products have been certified by the Chinese government. A listing on Chinese portal Alibaba showed that 45% of its exports are to the Middle East and 10% to Southeast Asian companies.

Read more: Chinese materials find way into army bulletproof vests