SAAB Weighs Legal Route to Protest Indian VSHORADS Defeat (LIVEFIST)

Parthu

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Days after a defeat in the Indian Army’s multi-billion contest for very short range air defence systems (VSHORADS), Sweden’s Saab indicates today that it would contemplate knocking on the door of Indian courts, an option available to it as part of the country’s defence procurement procedure.

Saab’s Asia-Pacific head Dean Rosenfield said today in Bangkok, “We are evaluating the loss in the VSHORADS program, and evaluating a legal challenge that remains one of the options.”

Missile_9M342_%28Igla-S%29.jpg

9K338 Igla-S, the lowest bidder in the competition

Russia’s KBM Igla-S was named L1 (lowest compliant bidder) on November 19 in a hugely protracted evaluation process beating Saab’s RBS-70NG and MBDA’s Mistral. The Indian Army is looking for 800 twin launchers and 5,000 missiles to plug tactical air defence gaps at forward establishments near the country’s frontier areas.

Saab CEO was in Delhi this week, where the company’s defeat is almost certain to have come up in a meeting with Indian defence minister Nirmala Sitharaman. The Indian MoD is said to have so far communicated that processes have been followed, though questions remain.

As with all protests of this kind, Saab will need to evaluate the potential efficacy of taking the Indian MoD to court. The VSHORADS evaluation process has been a troubled one to say the least, though there is no historical indication that courtroom wrangling with the MoD has ever yielded a favourable result. On the other hand, for an obviously problematic process, a hands-off approach could simply validate liberties that seen frequently to be taken with India’s Defence Procurement Procedure. Saab will have to consider all of this before it takes a decision. What could weigh on Saab’s mind more than any other factor is its contender status in India’s new fighter contest. Without precedent or assurance that the rule of law works to hammer out glitches in India’s armament evaluation and decision making process, an entire industry potentially waits for Saab to decide.

a1316cb8c70c4e1c_org.JPG

SAAB's RBS 70NG

”Reality certainly hits home, and it’s a reminder that it’s not all roses. But we have 60 days to decide if we wish to pursue this legally. We wouldn’t want to waste the government’s time or our own,” Rosenfield said.

Saab, which fields the Gripen E in India’s recently kicked-off contest to buy and build 114 fighters in country, will evaluate the legal route on the back of a series of letters both protesting the VSHORADS decision as well as seeking greater clarity on how Russia’s Igla-S — a system that didn’t participate in every trial round — was deemed compliant with the process and not disqualified. The defeat came months after another disappointment for Saab — when India pulled the plug on the army’s SRSAM procurement program, a three-way contest between Saab’s BAMSE, Israel’s SpyDer and Russia’s Tor-M2KM.

https://www.livefistdefence.com/201...-route-to-protest-indian-vshorads-defeat.html

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@Milspec @Hellfire @randomradio @vstol Jockey

If they do indeed pursue this legally, I would think its very likely that this competition will go the same way that the Carbine tender seems to be going. Cancelling and re-issuing of RFP. I wonder when MoD will realize that this procurement model doesn't work.
 

Parthu

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I really did not know whether to mark it funny or informative :)

On point - nothing much that will come of it. If it is L-1, it is L-1. There is nothing they can do. But why do I feel that Russia will be getting quite a few more orders as also US along with French in coming months?

TATA Nexter in greater numbers as India starts Artillery modernisation now?

But isn't it a huge blunder to ahead with Igla? It's not a mystery that it has sub par performance when ambient temperature is high or too hot. Our procurement process kicking us in the butt again?

@Hellfire

I've heard the Russians actually entered the Igla in the competition because the much newer Verba wasn't ready when they applied for the tender, and apparently we said they can't change the entrant mid-tender so they went with the Igla. If at all we go back to square one with the VSHORADS competition, I believe Russians will enter the Verba. It'll be more expensive than Igla but still it's likely to emerge as L-1 compared to the European systems, provided all other things being equal.

I thought Army was now interested in an OFB 155mm 52-cal gun on a Tatra (or Tata) 8x8 for the wheeled MGS requirement? Nexter is teamed up with Ashok Leyland for their Caeser offering in that category.
 
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vstol Jockey

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I will welcome the court intervention in this deal as it will allow us to go forward with newer tech weapons. This concept of L1 is bad. How can you decide a weapon system based on L1 and have negotiations toreduce the price? You need to have 2-3 options who meet your criteria to be able to negotiate. What kind of negotiations can you have with a single vendor who has been announced L1? In the case of Bofors, IA had selected three guns and all of them were engaged in negotiations to lower the price.
 

randomradio

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I really did not know whether to mark it funny or informative :)

On point - nothing much that will come of it. If it is L-1, it is L-1. There is nothing they can do. But why do I feel that Russia will be getting quite a few more orders as also US along with French in coming months?

The Igla-S is obsolete. They should cancel the tender. The army should have done this back in 2012.

TATA Nexter in greater numbers as India starts Artillery modernisation now?

In this case, CAESAR is the best, so we should go for it.
 

randomradio

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Frankly, have no clue on this aspect. The only thing that I know of Igla is that it is pretty sturdy, effective (as per users in IA/IN) and easy to use. Igla will be of use in High altitude regions, where the performance has been good enough, Do not see much of use in plains.

Let's see what comes out.

In 5 years, most aircraft will come with DIRCM and the Igla-S will simply turn into fireworks.
 

Milspec

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Buying igla's is bad decision, if anything Saab's protest might get us out of a bad deal.
 
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randomradio

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I will welcome the court intervention in this deal as it will allow us to go forward with newer tech weapons. This concept of L1 is bad. How can you decide a weapon system based on L1 and have negotiations toreduce the price? You need to have 2-3 options who meet your criteria to be able to negotiate. What kind of negotiations can you have with a single vendor who has been announced L1? In the case of Bofors, IA had selected three guns and all of them were engaged in negotiations to lower the price.

Logically, it won't work.

When we decide the L1, it is based on apples to apples comparison. For example, we ask for an IRST sensor, and all competitors can provide the price for that. But Rafale also comes with a large TV sensor. Naturally, the TV sensor will make it more expensive. So how do you quantify for that when you decide on L1 after negotiations are complete? You will just end up wasting time deciding what constitutes L1. Price discovery post negotiations will become unfair.

Also when negotiations start there will be room for corruption. If one competitor manages to get the file for the other competitors, then it's obvious they can mess around with the process.

When L1 is decided in the current process, the vendor cannot increase prices anyway.

The MMRCA specific problem was that HAL was useless, nothing else. HAL would have jacked up the prices of the Typhoon also, like they did with MKI.

The end result is having multiple negotiations is simply a waste of time and money and serves no purpose.
 

vikata

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one thing i wonder sometime why the issues of corruption always comes out or pursued with single minded dedication when it concers relatively small fish /power like france whether its scorpene ,rafale or bofors for sweden and similarly for augusta .....
its not like our army top brass is having a split personalities when it comes to other countries they will seek bribe and when it comes to super power they will not seek it.
why i havent heard much about corruption or making an issue out of it in indo us deal or indo russian deal,looks like everybody is afraid of touching them or question them.
we are getting substandard weapons from russia since ages having maintainenece issues why should we continue to purchase newer paltform from them and increase our dependency on them.
if we are getting world beater system from russian then only we should purchase from them like nuke submarine and other system,or if [possible enter into joint development with indian ownership of IPR otherwise if we have to simply buy why not biuy the best rather than the russian obsolete system we have already suffered way too much .
like we intend to buy armata at the expense of arjun it will be a monumental blunder on the parts of army rather than promoting desii system and ordering them beside building the supply chain so that we can reap the benefit in future

looks like we are not going to learn anything
and will continue ,i just wish some one grow spine strong enough to call out russian bluff of supporting pak in case india reject them ,its way too much
hope we will learn one day but i fear ...


seniors kindly share ur thoughts @Milspec@randomradio@nilgiri and others feel free to suggest errors and kindly dont take it as a rant or politically motivated
thanks
 

Milspec

सर्वदा शक्तिशाली; सर्वत्र विजय
Moderator
Dec 2, 2017
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one thing i wonder sometime why the issues of corruption always comes out or pursued with single minded dedication when it concers relatively small fish /power like france whether its scorpene ,rafale or bofors for sweden and similarly for augusta .....
its not like our army top brass is having a split personalities when it comes to other countries they will seek bribe and when it comes to super power they will not seek it.
why i havent heard much about corruption or making an issue out of it in indo us deal or indo russian deal,looks like everybody is afraid of touching them or question them.
we are getting substandard weapons from russia since ages having maintainenece issues why should we continue to purchase newer paltform from them and increase our dependency on them.
if we are getting world beater system from russian then only we should purchase from them like nuke submarine and other system,or if [possible enter into joint development with indian ownership of IPR otherwise if we have to simply buy why not biuy the best rather than the russian obsolete system we have already suffered way too much .
like we intend to buy armata at the expense of arjun it will be a monumental blunder on the parts of army rather than promoting desii system and ordering them beside building the supply chain so that we can reap the benefit in future

looks like we are not going to learn anything
and will continue ,i just wish some one grow spine strong enough to call out russian bluff of supporting pak in case india reject them ,its way too much
hope we will learn one day but i fear ...


seniors kindly share ur thoughts @Milspec@randomradio@nilgiri and others feel free to suggest errors and kindly dont take it as a rant or politically motivated
thanks
Russians sell cheap, we like cheap.
 
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randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
19,308
14,039
India
one thing i wonder sometime why the issues of corruption always comes out or pursued with single minded dedication when it concers relatively small fish /power like france whether its scorpene ,rafale or bofors for sweden and similarly for augusta .....
its not like our army top brass is having a split personalities when it comes to other countries they will seek bribe and when it comes to super power they will not seek it.
why i havent heard much about corruption or making an issue out of it in indo us deal or indo russian deal,looks like everybody is afraid of touching them or question them.
we are getting substandard weapons from russia since ages having maintainenece issues why should we continue to purchase newer paltform from them and increase our dependency on them.
if we are getting world beater system from russian then only we should purchase from them like nuke submarine and other system,or if [possible enter into joint development with indian ownership of IPR otherwise if we have to simply buy why not biuy the best rather than the russian obsolete system we have already suffered way too much .
like we intend to buy armata at the expense of arjun it will be a monumental blunder on the parts of army rather than promoting desii system and ordering them beside building the supply chain so that we can reap the benefit in future

looks like we are not going to learn anything
and will continue ,i just wish some one grow spine strong enough to call out russian bluff of supporting pak in case india reject them ,its way too much
hope we will learn one day but i fear ...


seniors kindly share ur thoughts @Milspec@randomradio@nilgiri and others feel free to suggest errors and kindly dont take it as a rant or politically motivated
thanks

It's pretty normal to sometimes waive off requirements that the forces deem is not necessary. The army wasn't trying to do the Russians any favours, they wanted the Russians to stay in order to avoid a single vendor situation in case the Swedes or French screw up and back out. Different story that they did not. But those waivers have now come to bite them in the backside.

The army should have scrapped the tender and gone straight for the Verba during the UPA term. But, if this tender gets cancelled, then the DRDO will step in, potentially holding up the purchase for a long time.
 
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vikata

Well-Known member
Jan 5, 2018
388
305
delhi
It's pretty normal to sometimes waive off requirements that the forces deem is not necessary. The army wasn't trying to do the Russians any favours, they wanted the Russians to stay in order to avoid a single vendor situation in case the Swedes or French screw up and back out. Different story that they did not. But those waivers have now come to bite them in the backside.

The army should have scrapped the tender and gone straight for the Verba during the UPA term. But, if this tender gets cancelled, then the DRDO will step in, potentially holding up the purchase for a long time.
hope somehow we will be able to sort out this mess