Rafale RB of Indian Air Force : News and Discussions

Sathya

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MRFA is a very long process. 5+3 years for delivery of French-made jets and 2 additional years for delivery of Indian-made jets. So it's a 10-year wait before the Indian line stabilises.

After they signed the first deal for 36, the IAF wanted MRFA to go ahead in 2017, so deliveries could begin around 2025. Of course they had set their signs on Gripen at the time, until MoD brought in other jets in 2018 and the Gripen requirement was replaced with LCA Mk2. So the first tranche was supposed to sit between the start of MRFA and first delivery. The second tranche is only buying time in order to allow MRFA's postponment by another year or two at best, although it's definitely not desirable to delay it anymore.

A delay to start MRFA by half a decade or more would be meaningless since requirements would change by the time the delivery of Indian-made Rafales happens in the mid-2030s. The idea is to get a production deal signed over the next few years so we are up by another 9 squadrons before AMCA Mk2 deliveries begin after 2035. There's no point in having simultaneous deliveries of Rafale and AMCA.



If it's a small fleet, then fine. But if we want to operate a large fleet, then we need a production line because it's pretty dumb to leave maintenance and operations to a foreign company.

If either the MRFA or a large scale purchase of a similar or better jet doesn't end in a contract within the next 5-7 years, we are screwed.

Tranche 2 would be F4.2 or same standard as before?

Will DRAL get any work share in tranche 2 ?

I think how DRAL progress will give us clue of what's to come.
 

Hydra

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Finger's crossed for a good economic future I guess.
I don't know why and what additional good economy conditions needed for us to purchase weapons. We are now either 5th or 6th economy in world, we are facing two nuclear advisory simultaneously. One is continuing a proxy war on us,other one is actively participating in land grabbing .

@randomradio As long as government is successful in cheating its own people with cosmetic dramas like missile attack threat brings Abhi or stopping press entry in crucial area of NE/ladakh to stop public to know about actual facts , don't expect goi to commit a large scale purchase.

Regarding maintenance,who is doing the maintenance job on US equipment in india? If I am not wrong,OEM I'd doing. The result is high rate of availability. C17 is having almost 100 percentage availability rate throughout the year.
 

Ashwin

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IAF commemorated #AzadiKaAmritMahotsav with a 75 aircraft #ElephantWalk
 

randomradio

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Tranche 2 would be F4.2 or same standard as before?

Dassault says F4.2 will be qualified by 2024. So in theory, anytime we sign a contract from here on, we should get the F4.2 in 3 years. But who knows?

France is going to get theirs in 2027.

Will DRAL get any work share in tranche 2 ?

I think how DRAL progress will give us clue of what's to come.

There are claims that a final assembly line can be set up with just an order of 36. This could easily be their attempt to bypass the tender and force their way into the India market on their own. Since the assembly line can also assemble Falcons, Dassault loses nothing.
 

Picdelamirand-oil

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Dassault says F4.2 will be qualified by 2024. So in theory, anytime we sign a contract from here on, we should get the F4.2 in 3 years. But who knows?

France is going to get theirs in 2027.



There are claims that a final assembly line can be set up with just an order of 36. This could easily be their attempt to bypass the tender and force their way into the India market on their own. Since the assembly line can also assemble Falcons, Dassault loses nothing.
 

Picdelamirand-oil

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Dassault says F4.2 will be qualified by 2024. So in theory, anytime we sign a contract from here on, we should get the F4.2 in 3 years. But who knows?

France is going to get theirs in 2027.
No it's not accurate. Rafale production for France will start in 2023 to produce the 28 aircraft missing from the current contract to reach 180 Rafales deployed and to replace the 12 Rafales sold to Greece. The first 12 Rafales will be F4.2 ready i.e. they will be F4.1 but capable of F4.2 by a simple software upgrade. This is possible because the hardware must be ready before the software (the hardware must be available to test the software). The next 28 will be directly F4.2.

Next year we will start the retrofit of the entire French Rafale fleet to F4.1. The necessary hardware has already been ordered.

There are claims that a final assembly line can be set up with just an order of 36. This could easily be their attempt to bypass the tender and force their way into the India market on their own. Since the assembly line can also assemble Falcons, Dassault loses nothing.
During the COVID crisis the Falcon market was not very active, but that seems to be over now
 

randomradio

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Nov 30, 2017
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No it's not accurate. Rafale production for France will start in 2023 to produce the 28 aircraft missing from the current contract to reach 180 Rafales deployed and to replace the 12 Rafales sold to Greece. The first 12 Rafales will be F4.2 ready i.e. they will be F4.1 but capable of F4.2 by a simple software upgrade. This is possible because the hardware must be ready before the software (the hardware must be available to test the software). The next 28 will be directly F4.2.

Next year we will start the retrofit of the entire French Rafale fleet to F4.1. The necessary hardware has already been ordered.

Dassault claims some capabilities will become available with F4.1, but all capabilities being worked on for F4 will come only with F4.2. Most reports speak of the F4.1 as the version with more or less the same hardware as F3R plus some new stuff like the helmet, whereas the F4.2 comes with the multiarray radar and GaN.

Anyway, a 2023 order with a 2026 delivery for 12 jets would make sense for the F4.2 timeline though.

During the COVID crisis the Falcon market was not very active, but that seems to be over now

Yeah, so it makes sense for a final assembly line set up in India for the second tranche. Perhaps with some minor additions, like the production of wings, canards and other moving surfaces, particularly stuff necessary for long term maintenance. Simply increase ToT as more orders come in and completely bypass MRFA.
 

Hydra

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Dassault claims some capabilities will become available with F4.1, but all capabilities being worked on for F4 will come only with F4.2. Most reports speak of the F4.1 as the version with more or less the same hardware as F3R plus some new stuff like the helmet, whereas the F4.2 comes with the multiarray radar and GaN.

Anyway, a 2023 order with a 2026 delivery for 12 jets would make sense for the F4.2 timeline though.



Yeah, so it makes sense for a final assembly line set up in India for the second tranche. Perhaps with some minor additions, like the production of wings, canards and other moving surfaces, particularly stuff necessary for long term maintenance. Simply increase ToT as more orders come in and completely bypass MRFA.
What is multi array radar and how it is different from existing radars? Whats the advantages? @Picdelamirand-oil
 

Hydra

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As a Frenchman, I am proud and honored to see Rafale and Jaguar at this celebration. Thank you, and congratulations to you!
As an indian defense enthusiast, its disgusting to see Jaguars still serving with IAF. Countries like Oman, which doesn't have any threat from other countries already retired Jaguars ling time ago.
Apart from weight & thickness reduction, what will be the operational advantages? Any improvement in LPI or tracking range?
 

Lolwa

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I don't know why and what additional good economy conditions needed for us to purchase weapons. We are now either 5th or 6th economy in world, we are facing two nuclear advisory simultaneously. One is continuing a proxy war on us,other one is actively participating in land grabbing .

@randomradio As long as government is successful in cheating its own people with cosmetic dramas like missile attack threat brings Abhi or stopping press entry in crucial area of NE/ladakh to stop public to know about actual facts , don't expect goi to commit a large scale purchase.

Regarding maintenance,who is doing the maintenance job on US equipment in india? If I am not wrong,OEM I'd doing. The result is high rate of availability. C17 is having almost 100 percentage availability rate throughout the year.
Economics don't work like that. Even the U.K and France doesn't have as big a fleet as us. And they can spend far more resources than us in rearming themselves. We are still quite weak from an economic stand point..
Though the sooner we get the rafales/f15EX/f18/su 57 or whatever the sooner we can focus on fixing other gaps in the military..
 

STEPHEN COHEN

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Dec 4, 2017
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As an indian defense enthusiast, its disgusting to see Jaguars still serving with IAF. Countries like Oman, which doesn't have any threat from other countries already retired Jaguars ling time ago.

Apart from weight & thickness reduction, what will be the operational advantages? Any improvement in LPI or tracking range?

We need Numbers for a Two front conflict

Jaguar Airframes have a lot of life left

LCA will take time

With Stand Off Munitions like SAAW ,
The Importance of Jaguar has increased even further
 

Lolwa

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As an indian defense enthusiast, its disgusting to see Jaguars still serving with IAF. Countries like Oman, which doesn't have any threat from other countries already retired Jaguars ling time ago.

Apart from weight & thickness reduction, what will be the operational advantages? Any improvement in LPI or tracking range?
Jaguars are quite underrated. They fulfill a very niche role. Indian Jaguars are pretty much the most advanced CAS aircraft in Asia..
 

Hydra

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May 19, 2020
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Economics don't work like that. Even the U.K and France doesn't have as big a fleet as us. And they can spend far more resources than us in rearming themselves. We are still quite weak from an economic stand point..
Though the sooner we get the rafales/f15EX/f18/su 57 or whatever the sooner we can focus on fixing other gaps in the military..
FYI, UK used to replace every surface fleets with new design in every 15 years ( except ACs), Japan will do similar things with its subsurface fleets.
Do you know how much boosts it will give to local industry? Also to local economy . This procedure will alone give confidence to the industry to invest in new technology, here in India we will keep on using everything we inducted till dooms day. Now tell how we gonna fill gap after induction of mmrca2?
 

Hydra

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Jaguars are quite underrated. They fulfill a very niche role. Indian Jaguars are pretty much the most advanced CAS aircraft in Asia..
Ys, these are the best air to ground platform we have till recently. Not even mki matches with jags in this arena. But how to justify an airforce operating 50 yr old design in 21st century, only justification is we are operating 70 yr old jet fighter as out first line of defense.
 

Lolwa

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FYI, UK used to replace every surface fleets with new design in every 15 years ( except ACs), Japan will do similar things with its subsurface fleets.
Do you know how much boosts it will give to local industry? Also to local economy . This procedure will alone give confidence to the industry to invest in new technology, here in India we will keep on using everything we inducted till dooms day. Now tell how we gonna fill gap after induction of mmrca2?
The problem was Britain was an aviation heavyweight unlike India and still is to an extent so they could change and opt to research and make newer designs. Same with the Japanese who are still very reliant on using American fighters.
India still hasn't completed its industrialisation unlike the former. There's a lot more complexity to our problems..
 

Lolwa

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Ys, these are the best air to ground platform we have till recently. Not even mki matches with jags in this arena. But how to justify an airforce operating 50 yr old design in 21st century, only justification is we are operating 70 yr old jet fighter as out first line of defense.
Well we could have bought the tornadoes sadly we never did. The mig 27 were truly junk. Jaguar is quite a good aircraft though. It's superior to the su25 and the Nanchang q5 and can use American and western munitions. On top of that it can do DPS,Anti armour missions as well as anti-ship roles which the former aircrafts can't.. On top of that it can do dedicated CAS missions like the a-10,frogfoot and the Q5. The adour engines are still reliable and cheap to maintain. If DRDO and HAL can they should redesign and modernise the airframe and produce a newer variant of Jaguar than can be used by the airforce to give air support..A cheap aircraft with similar flight characteristics of the Jaguar with more advanced electronics and better manufacturing processes. It will be an export hit too for countries in SEA,Africa and South America. Who need a good ground attack aircraft with decent air to air capability. But the Tejas can also do those things..
 

Picdelamirand-oil

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As an indian defense enthusiast, its disgusting to see Jaguars still serving with IAF. Countries like Oman, which doesn't have any threat from other countries already retired Jaguars ling time ago.

Apart from weight & thickness reduction, what will be the operational advantages? Any improvement in LPI or tracking range?
On the image of the Rafale the yellow parts represent the radar with its multiple arrays. The field of view is almost 360° and in addition these antennas are multi-functional and can be used for EW, jamming, communications in addition to Radar.
The improvement of the LPI is a software problem and also the agility of the electronics which is improved with GaN. GaN allows to increase the radiated power in a ratio of 3 to 5 which increases the range