Rafale RB of Indian Air Force : News and Discussions

randomradio

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Su 30 MKI Did have Inferior Missiles on Feb 27 , that has been accepted
But the BARS Radar was not inferior to that on PAF Block 52

The Su 30 Could not have maintained a Radar Lock with such a Altitude Difference

Infact we should do the Same Exercise with Rafale and see whether a RAFALE
can get a Firing Solution at a plane which is 15 to 20 K feet Higher than itself

@randomradio What is your opinion about Rafale' s Look Up -- Shoot up capabilities

Getting a lock on and firing solution using a radar is not a problem. The only problem is the missile range will be less.

During Balakot, the F-16s are said to have fired from Dmax, which is the maximum range of the missile's NEZ. So it's impossible for the R-77 to compete when it has a lower range than the C5 even at co-altitude, never mind from a lower altitude. Otoh, the Meteor can easily compete.

However, I don't think the Rafales would have fired back either, since a basic tactic for evading a missile fired at Dmax is to go cold so the missile is outranged. And in case the Meteor was used, it would need to be guided by another radar, be it AWACS or another Rafale. But I suppose both wouldn't have been options at the time. The Meteor wouldn't have been integrated with the AWACS and there were only two jets around.

There's no point in speculating the tactics used. All we know is whatever the MKIs did succeeded in fending off the enemy even when outnumbered and equipped with an inferior missile.
 

randomradio

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Effectiveness was evaluated through a weighted combination of operational capability (55%), ease of maintenance (25%), cooperation (10%) and direct compensations in the form of investments in the Swiss economy (10%), Venable’s report said.''

The ease of maintenance should actually favour the Rafale.

Even with the F-35 using only one engine with a much longer life and having 20% lower flight hours than the Rafale, the cost difference is not a lot considering the exchange rate difference between the dollar/euro and francs. In fact, at the same exchange rate, the sustainment cost will favour Rafale. Which means even after flying 20% more with a lower quality engine, the efficieny of the Rafale on the ground is actually much higher than the F-35. Of course, the F-35's stealth skin and paints will add a lot more time and cost in comparison, but that's how it all works out.

It's a fact that the F-35 needs more time on the ground in comparison to the Rafale.

Then, let's not forget that the cost difference is after comparing LM's yet-to-be-achieved figures versus Rafale's guaranteed figures. And let's also not forget that the $2.2B even includes the Rafale's higher procurement cost, which could be as much as $30M extra for each Rafale, thereby further reducing the difference in operational costs.

Furthermore, the Rafale's main advantage is it doesn't require overhauls in the traditional sense. But with just a 30-year service life, both aircraft will have to be stripped down to their bare minimum at the 15-year mark for MLUs anyway. So Rafale's main advantage cannot be used by small air forces, and ends up equalising with the F-35. Even without this advantage, the Rafale should beat the F-35 given its other advantages.

So the main difference is technical characteristics. Hence, IMHO, the F-35 beats the Rafale purely based on its capabilities in the air.
 
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Saaho

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Getting a lock on and firing solution using a radar is not a problem. The only problem is the missile range will be less.

During Balakot, the F-16s are said to have fired from Dmax, which is the maximum range of the missile's NEZ. So it's impossible for the R-77 to compete when it has a lower range than the C5 even at co-altitude, never mind from a lower altitude. Otoh, the Meteor can easily compete.

However, I don't think the Rafales would have fired back either, since a basic tactic for evading a missile fired at Dmax is to go cold so the missile is outranged. And in case the Meteor was used, it would need to be guided by another radar, be it AWACS or another Rafale. But I suppose both wouldn't have been options at the time. The Meteor wouldn't have been integrated with the AWACS and there were only two jets around.

There's no point in speculating the tactics used. All we know is whatever the MKIs did succeeded in fending off the enemy even when outnumbered and equipped with an inferior missile.
Difference is, with Rafale and F-15EX, the electronic warfare equipment aboard the plane will make it much harder for F-16s to get a firing solution because among other things they have phased radar array jamming AND a MUCH more competent radar to detect and lock opponents at much longer distance. Coupled with a quality missile, they can possibly take out the opponent.

Now, Super Sukhoi was supposed to bring new Israeli electronic warfare suite AND an AESA radar to Su-30MKI BUT I highly doubt the planes fighting those F-16s were Super Sukhoi. Heck, we have been hearing Super Sukhoi since 2008 or so but apart from few planes updated to fire Brahmos (abliet a lot awkwardly), we have seen nothing of it.

In the end, like all thing government in India, it was an outdated, outclassed, poorly maintained, poorly armed, pathetically placed fighter which was incompetently flown (with stupid beaurocratic RoEs) that had to run for its life.
 

Picdelamirand-oil

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So the main difference is technical characteristics. Hence, IMHO, the F-35 beats the Rafale purely based on its capabilities in the air.
The main advantage of the F-35 is that L.M. is able to tell good stories and the Swiss are able to believe them despite all the official reports to the contrary.
 

randomradio

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The main advantage of the F-35 is that L.M. is able to tell good stories and the Swiss are able to believe them despite all the official reports to the contrary.

The basic characteristics in terms of hardware are better than the Rafale F3R. 800mm vs 600mm radar, more EODAS sensors, MADL, HMDS, bigger RWR antennas etc. And it has high band stealth. It's the software part that's in question, especially when it comes to sensor fusion and the full capabilities of the EW suite. Even they should be working on something similar to TRAGEDAC for example.

Only the F4.2 sticks out with CARAA and MELBAA.
 
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Picdelamirand-oil

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The basic characteristics in terms of hardware are better than the Rafale F3R. 800mm vs 600mm radar, more EODAS sensors, MADL, HMDS, bigger RWR antennas etc. And it has high band stealth. It's the software part that's in question, especially when it comes to sensor fusion and the full capabilities of the EW suite. Even they should be working on something similar to TRAGEDAC for example.

Only the F4.2 sticks out with CARAA and MELBAA.
It is an addition of characteristics placed next to each other but it does not make a weapon system. A weapon system is when the capabilities are complementary to each other in such a way that weaknesses in one area are compensated for by strength in another and when all these capabilities work harmoniously under all conditions, especially under the most difficult ones, to be able to withstand combat and continue to be threatening even after losses of capabilities.
 
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WHOHE

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The geographical advantage for the USN stands in complete anthithesis to the USAF in the Pacific. The USN has a lot of water to work with, whereas the USAF has no land to operate their fighters from. And it appears the USN wants the USAF to handle deep penetration missions into China, they want to play a more supporting role.

It's interesting to note that the YF-23 had twice the range of the F-22. Had the USAF chosen the YF-23 back then, they wouldn't have needed to start NGAD as a knee-jerk reaction to the J-20. It would have allowed them to operate from the southern part of Japan, not just Okinawa, and also from even further north with just 1 refuelling. This would have afforded the USN the greater budget needed for more ships and allowed them to press home their advantage versus the PLAN.
You know very little. YF-23
The main advantage of the F-35 is that L.M. is able to tell good stories and the Swiss are able to believe them despite all the official reports to the contrary.
Whaaa. That's what you sound like. Stop being a salty Frenchy and realize that your Rafail is not the fighter that you and all your delusional frenchy's thought. F-35 won by a 95 point gap in cost and performance and we still don't know if Rafail came in second. Rafail will lose in Finland and you salty Le french will b**** and moan and make up an excuse on why your inferior Rafail lost. But hey whatever makes your butt hurt less painful, eh?

Just remember when ever the Rafail goes up against the F-35 it always loses. Rafail always gets the scraps the F-35 doesn't want. ;)
 

randomradio

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It is an addition of characteristics placed next to each other but it does not make a weapon system. A weapon system is when the capabilities are complementary to each other in such a way that weaknesses in one area are compensated for by strength in another and when all these capabilities work harmoniously under all conditions, especially under the most difficult ones, to be able to withstand combat and continue to be threatening even after losses of capabilities.

You can say that the minute the Pentagon clears the F-35 for FRP, that's the day it will operationally exceed the capabilities of the Rafale F3R, and that's when the Swiss tender will become relevant. The only difference here is your opinion conflicts with the Swiss opinion, and the answer lies with the Pentagon.

Similarly, the F4.2 is also a pie in the sky and is expected to meet its goals only in 2024, before production begins. Only the F4.2 can match or exceed the F-35, whereas it's likely that the F-35 is equal to or a step ahead of the F3R already, even with all the theatrics happening with LM. And in this case, the answer lies in Finland.
 

Picdelamirand-oil

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India: the second Rafale squadron will be operational at the end of July
Launched in 2016 with a first delivery in 2019 for a full capacity by 2022, this programme is a great success for the French DTIB

The second Rafale squadron for Bengal


The IAF is preparing to declare its second Rafale squadron operational by the end of July, based at Hasimara in West Bengal. The first one based at Ambala had received its IOC on September 10, 2020. Named 'Falcons of Chhamb and Akhnoor' and with 7 seven fighters at present, it is expected to reach its full capacity during 2022 with 18 aircraft. Strategically placed near Pakistan and China for one, and Bangladesh for the other, the IAF has high hopes for its new fighter.



Complementing the Su-30 MKI


Dassault's aircraft is already equipped with modern equipment to fulfil its protection and deterrence role, ranging from the Mica air-to-air missile to the SCALP stealth cruise missile and the AASM guided bombs with a range of 80 kilometres. The IAF has requested some technical modifications to its aircraft, such as a cold start at high altitude, a flight recorder with 10 hours of storage, and the integration of several Israeli sensors (optronics and electronic warfare). Its presence in the region, staged during clashes near the LAC (Line of Actual Control), is said to have contributed to a revision of the Chinese army's plans, which then moved its J-20s and H-6 bombers to the Himalayan foothills. It will operate in partnership with the Su-30 MkI, of which the Indian Air Force has 272.

The MMRCA 2.0 programme


Launched in 2001, the MMRCA (Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft) programme is already in its second phase. Although the Rafale has already won the first round with 36 aircraft ordered, the IAF still needs 114 aircraft. The Rafale's competitors are the Mig-35, the Gripen NG, the F-18 E/F, the Typhoon and the F-16 IN Block 70/72. If the Rafale can count on its natural performance and its current use by the IAF, it will have to face the F-16 of General Dynamics which, through a bold and aggressive sales strategy, is trying to steal the show from the Saint-Cloud firm. But the good management of the Rafale programme, a delivery schedule that has not suffered any delays, a level of availability of aircraft above 90%, and especially the prospect of seeing it soon reach the performance levels of 5th generation aircraft with the F4 and then F5 standard, are major assets as Delhi prepares for a long term war of nerves with Beijing.
 
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Picdelamirand-oil

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The only difference here is your opinion conflicts with the Swiss opinion, and the answer lies with the Pentagon.
You are right, I am not as gullible as the Swiss. It is true that the Rafale will have a MADL type link only with F4, but the link of the F-35 does not work, for it to be considered as working it would have to allow data fusion with external data and this aspect works better on the Rafale than on the F-35, even today.
 
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randomradio

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You are right, I am not as gullible as the Swiss.

But shouldn't you also consider the Swiss have more information to make their decision?

It is true that the Rafale will have a MADL type link only with F4, but the link of the F-35 does not work, for it to be considered as working it would have to allow data fusion with external data and this aspect works better on the Rafale than on the F-35, even today.

The problem for the Rafale is the development risk is equal to the F-35 with F4.1 or worse than the F-35 with F4.2.

The Swiss have discovered that the F-35 exceeds the Rafale F3R while being the least risky option for delivery post 2024 compared to F4 with similar capabilities as the F-35. And they have also discovered that the upgrade option for the F-35 for 2040-45 is superior to the Rafale's option in the same period. So, from their PoV, the F-35 is obviously the better bet, even if some of the F3R capabilities work better than the F-35.

Even when it comes to stealth, they will consider DEDIRA to be more risky than the F-35's already existing stealth.
 
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Picdelamirand-oil

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The Swiss critics should have a petition out, right? How many signature are needed for the govt to consider it?

Do you have the link for it?

The announced cost of the 36 F-35A planes that Switzerland plans to acquire is controversial


In addition, and as they had announced in the event that an American aircraft was selected as part of the Air 2030 program, several formations located on the left on the Swiss political scene began by collecting the 100,000 signatures necessary to organize a vote to contest the choice of the F-35A. To date, and only ten days after the Federal Council's announcement, 70,000 have already been collected.
 
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Picdelamirand-oil

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But shouldn't you also consider the Swiss have more information to make their decision?
They tried not to consider the information available and to believe what L.M. said on the grounds that it would be in the contract and therefore binding. As if the Americans could feel committed to a contract with Switzerland.
The problem for the Rafale is the development risk is equal to the F-35 with F4.1 or worse than the F-35 with F4.2.
It's because you don't know well Dassault

The Swiss have discovered that the F-35 exceeds the Rafale F3R while being the least risky option for delivery post 2024 compared to F4 with similar capabilities as the F-35. And they have also discovered that the upgrade option for the F-35 for 2040-45 is superior to the Rafale's option in the same period. So, from their PoV, the F-35 is obviously the better bet, even if some of the F3R capabilities work better than the F-35.
Only if you believe L.M. power point.

Even when it comes to stealth, they will consider DEDIRA to be more risky than the F-35's already existing stealth.
Export version of F-35 is exactly at the same level of LO compare to Rafale! without SPECTRA!!!
 
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randomradio

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They tried not to consider the information available and to believe what L.M. said on the grounds that it would be in the contract and therefore binding. As if the Americans could feel committed to a contract with Switzerland.

It's because you don't know well Dassault

Only if you believe L.M. power point.

Shouldn't all that be covered by flight tests? I don't think the Swiss will give more importance to paper specs than what they have tested. F4.1 flew many months after trials ended. Otoh, there should be a few prototypes of the F-35 flying with the TR3 configuration.

Export version of F-35 is exactly at the same level of LO compare to Rafale! without SPECTRA!!!

Come on, it's considered VLO. Gen Hostage said it has a lower RCS than the F-22.
 
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