Rafale RB of Indian Air Force : News and Discussions

Picdelamirand-oil

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Then it depends on when the new gen equipment will be introduced. Because the IAF is not going to accept a barebones aircraft and then integrate new equipment as they become available. Whatever comes with the aircraft the first time is what the IAF will be stuck with for a long, long time. Only new additions will be accepted, replacements will not be accepted.

I mean, if Dassault sells the IAF the F3R configuration and then say let's replace all the existing equipment with new F4 equipment, then that's not going to happen. An entirely new contract is needed to change equipment. Or the alternative is Dassault simply switches the old with the new at the same cost. That's what the Israelis did with the Jaguar's radar, when they decided to deliver AESA radars at the same cost as the MS radars.

This reply is actually meant for @Picdelamirand-oil.
No problems, it's easy to manage.
 

AbRaj

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There is no need to explain anything about this payment. DA made this payment for scaled models of Rafale created by one of its partner firms in India and the money was paid for that reason. These models were later gifted to verious entities within India which Includes the house of IAF Chief and RM's Office. If you go past his house you can see one such Models on display outside his house. So the gifts here have not been given to any individual but they are more of a part of business promotion. Lastly the money has not been paid for any kind of counsultancy service as a bribe. Just because DA put it under gift heading in their account books does not make it a bribe. These models can be accounted for. The order was clearly for 50 such models but only 25 were produced and therefore only 50% payment was done against a total order value of One million Euros. Its clearly an attempt to sabotage further orders for rafale by those who are competing with DA to sell more fighters to IAF. It could be anyone from Russians to Eurofighter team to Americans or even Swedes.
I hope the follow on order will be doubled just to rub on this corruption Con party headed by the Italian and her 40 year man child.
 

Herciv

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Then it depends on when the new gen equipment will be introduced. Because the IAF is not going to accept a barebones aircraft and then integrate new equipment as they become available. Whatever comes with the aircraft the first time is what the IAF will be stuck with for a long, long time. Only new additions will be accepted, replacements will not be accepted.

I mean, if Dassault sells the IAF the F3R configuration and then say let's replace all the existing equipment with new F4 equipment, then that's not going to happen. An entirely new contract is needed to change equipment. Or the alternative is Dassault simply switches the old with the new at the same cost. That's what the Israelis did with the Jaguar's radar, when they decided to deliver AESA radars at the same cost as the MS radars.

This reply is actually meant for @Picdelamirand-oil.
This is only commercial management.
Or the equipment is currently existing then it's software update and it is very easy to manage.
Or the equipment isn't currently existing like the star tracker but there are no further modification to do than adding it to the airframe because it is f4.2 ready. Then it can be sell in advance.
 

Picdelamirand-oil

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INDIA: SAGEM AND HAL SIGN A TECHNOLOGY TRANSFER FOR SIGMA 95 GYROLASER POWER PLANTS FOR ITS COMBAT AVIATION

The Indian aircraft manufacturer Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) has just signed a technology transfer agreement with Sagem (Safran) for the manufacture and maintenance in India of SIGMA 95 gyrolaser navigation units.

Developed by Sagem for combat airplanes and helicopters, SIGMA 95 is an autonomous avionics system for inertial navigation with hybridized GPS / Glonass * gyrolasers . Operating in harsh environments, this critical equipment provides military aircraft with great navigation precision and flexibility of use, thus contributing to the success of the most demanding missions, even in the absence of a GPS signal.

Under this agreement, HAL will have the capacity to produce SIGMA 95 power plants in India for the Indian air forces, and to ensure their maintenance in “level 3” operational condition, as close as possible to the units.


Through this technology transfer, Sagem thus consolidates its partnership with the Indian aeronautics industry. To date, several hundred Indian Air Force and Indian Navy combat aircraft are fitted with Sagem laser gyro navigation units (Hawk, Jaguar, Tejas, MiG29 and 27 and Sukhoï30).

Sagem gyrolaser navigation systems are produced in its Montluçon establishment (Auvergne region). They are in service on the most recent military aircraft in France and internationally, such as: the Dassault Rafale and Mirage 2000 fighter jets, the Airbus A400 M Atlas, or the NH90 and EC-725 Caracal helicopters in transport and special forces versions of Airbus Helicopters.
 

randomradio

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This is only commercial management.
Or the equipment is currently existing then it's software update and it is very easy to manage.
Or the equipment isn't currently existing like the star tracker but there are no further modification to do than adding it to the airframe because it is f4.2 ready. Then it can be sell in advance.

It depends on how different the F4 hardware is from F3R hardware. Adding new capability that doesn't exist will come in through a different contract and that's fine.

The idea behind purchasing just 36 jets is to make them war-ready as soon as possible, which is why it's considered an emergency purchase. So if the F4 is not as ready as the F3R when it was delivered, then the IAF won't go for it. So they will either go for F3R, perhaps with some F4 technologies that are operationally ready, or they will simply delay the F4 contract until it becomes ready.
 

Picdelamirand-oil

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It depends on how different the F4 hardware is from F3R hardware. Adding new capability that doesn't exist will come in through a different contract and that's fine.

The idea behind purchasing just 36 jets is to make them war-ready as soon as possible, which is why it's considered an emergency purchase. So if the F4 is not as ready as the F3R when it was delivered, then the IAF won't go for it. So they will either go for F3R, perhaps with some F4 technologies that are operationally ready, or they will simply delay the F4 contract until it becomes ready.
In 3 years, in 2024 it will be hardware ready , software ready, Doctrine of use to be developed. Usually it is France that develops its doctrine of use (by CEAM) and foreign countries copy or modify it. But in this case India could develop its own doctrine while France develops its own.
 

randomradio

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In 3 years, in 2024 it will be hardware ready , software ready, Doctrine of use to be developed. Usually it is France that develops its doctrine of use (by CEAM) and foreign countries copy or modify it. But in this case India could develop its own doctrine while France develops its own.

Great, so the only question is when ADLA will receive the first fully ready F4 jet.
 
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Picdelamirand-oil

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IAF chief Rakesh Bhadauria to flag off 6 Rafale fighters from France on April 21


The six Rafale warplanes were earlier scheduled to fly to India on April 28 but the event was advanced by a week to coincide with IAF chief Rakesh Bhadauria’s visit.
Indian Air Force chief Air Chief Marshal Rakesh Bhadauria will flag off six Rafale fighter jets from Merignac-Bordeaux airbase in south-western France on April 21, setting the stage for activating the second Rafale squadron at Hasimara in West Bengal, people familiar with the matter said.


Indian Air Force's Rafale fighter jet lands during the first day of the Aero India 2021 Airshow
at the Yelahanka Air Force Station in Bangalore on February 3, 2021.(AFP)

The IAF chief is scheduled to visit France from April 20, and will be in the country till April 23. The six warplanes were earlier scheduled to fly to India on April 28 but the event was advanced by a week to coincide with his visit.

It is understood that during his France visit, Air Chief Bhadauria will visit a French Rafale squadron, meet his counterpart Phillippe Lavigne and visit the newly-established Space Command in Paris.

The arrival of the six Rafale jets flagged by IAF chief Rakesh Bhadauria will raise the number of the Omni-role fighters with the IAF to 20 of the 36 contracted Rafale jets to India. This will enable the air force to complete the 117 Golden Arrows Squadron in Ambala with 18 aircraft and start the second squadron with 2 fourth-generation-plus fighter jets.

“The six fighters will fly to Ambala airbase, from where the fighters will be repurposed for the formation of a second squadron at Hasimara, “ said a senior air force officer.

The formation of a second Rafale squadron at Hasimara will add teeth to India’s aerial capability with Hercules C-130 J airlift squadron based in Panagarh in the northern part of West Bengal. Given the location of both the squadrons on the gates of Siliguri corridor, the IAF will have the power to counter any offensive from the north in the eastern sector, particularly in Sikkim and Arunachal Pradesh.

According to Dassault Aviation officials, another batch of four Rafale jets will fly to India in May. In addition to these 24 which will be with the IAF in India, the aviation giant has handed over seven more Rafale fighters that are used for training IAF officers in France. By May-end, only five more fighters are to be handed over by Dassault to complete the full package of 36 aircraft.

India and France inked the government-to-government deal for the 36 aircraft in 2016 that has also contributed to the two countries deepening bilateral ties including defence cooperation. Indian officials said the two countries have decided that future military hardware purchases would also be finalised on a government-to-government basis to keep out middlemen and lobbyists.

There is a huge potential to strengthen defence cooperation between India and France since Paris does not impose any condition to any military sales or joint development with India.

It is also in this context that Prime Minister Narendra Modi is expected to travel to France after wrapping up the India-European Union Summit in Portugal on May 7. French President Emmanuelle Macron is expected to be in Portugal for the summit on May 7 and returns to Paris the next day.


To add to India’s comfort, France is the only country with a well-developed military industry that has no defence dealings with Pakistan or China and has bilateral convergence in Indo-Pacific and space cooperation. Pakistan is completely reliant on Chinese military technology, which is based on Russian design and aircraft engines.

France’s relations with Pakistan, which have been on a slide for more than a year, has hit a new low with Islamists groups like Tehreek-e-Labbaik Pakistan (TLP) seeking retribution for statements made by President Macron that they consider to be “blasphemy”. There have been suggestions that the increasing belligerence of Islamists in Pakistan can force Paris to downgrade diplomatic ties with Islamabad. On Thursday, French diplomats in Islamabad confirmed to news channel Al Jazeera that it had asked French nationals and companies to temporarily leave Pakistan in view of the “serious threats to French interests” to leave Pakistan.
 
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Picdelamirand-oil

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IAF chief Rakesh Bhadauria to flag off 6 Rafale fighters from France on April 21

[...]
By May-end, only five more fighters are to be handed over by Dassault to complete the full package of 36 aircraft.

I don't believe it: I think the journalist misunderstood.
It is because there was a reserve of 7 Rafales that was used to train Indian pilots that we were able to deliver so many Rafales in 3 months.
This simply means that the training of Indian pilots is over.
 

randomradio

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Great. So that means the IAF can start accepting new jets in 2025. But any potential signature will be years away though. Flight testing and completing the report may take at least a year, would have taken longer if it was a whole new jet, but 1 year is realistic for an jet that was already tested. And if we assume govt approval comes in during the same year, it will be at least 2022 before negotiations take place. A signature in 2023 would mean delivery from 2026. But 2023-24 is election year, which may or may not affect the deal depending on its priority. So the best case would still be 2023 or 2024 for a signature even if we start the process this year.

Otoh, if the govt has the will, an F3R contract can be signed this year or the next, since there's no need for flight testing. It's impossible for the F4 to come in earlier than a new batch of F3R.

You also have to be prepared for the possibility that the IAF is pushing for MRFA because they also want to make a case for the emergency purchase of Su-57 Mk2 after MRFA begins. This makes the most sense to me, the reason why the IAF itself does not seem to be chasing after a second batch. I think the IAF believes that adding 36 more Rafales to the fleet won't add anything real for the massive investment. So they need all 114 if the Rafale is to actually contribute beyond the first 36.
 

Bon Plan

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It depends on how different the F4 hardware is from F3R hardware. Adding new capability that doesn't exist will come in through a different contract and that's fine.

The idea behind purchasing just 36 jets is to make them war-ready as soon as possible, which is why it's considered an emergency purchase. So if the F4 is not as ready as the F3R when it was delivered, then the IAF won't go for it. So they will either go for F3R, perhaps with some F4 technologies that are operationally ready, or they will simply delay the F4 contract until it becomes ready.
An order now means a first delivery in 2024. just the right time for release of F4.
Same tempo than your first order with F3R.

And I think it is in the Indian interest to ink soon.... some new rumors from Indonesia about a order for 48 units....
 

randomradio

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An order now means a first delivery in 2024. just the right time for release of F4.
Same tempo than your first order with F3R.

Need 1 year for flight testing.

The second batch is unlikely to happen at this time due to the second wave of COVID. If the govt takes strict measures again, like another month long lockdown, then it's unlikely to happen for a long time. There are a lot of other pending projects. The IA and IN are getting more importance now.

@Picdelamirand-oil
 
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Hydra

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Need 1 year for flight testing.

The second batch is unlikely to happen at this time due to the second wave of COVID. If the govt takes strict measures again, like another month long lockdown, then it's unlikely to happen for a long time. There are a lot of other pending projects. The IA and IN are getting more importance now.

@Picdelamirand-oil
My gut feeling also says same thing, with the second wave showing its true color in India its highly unlikely tuat we go for any major defense purchase.
 
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Picdelamirand-oil

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Need 1 year for flight testing.

The second batch is unlikely to happen at this time due to the second wave of COVID. If the govt takes strict measures again, like another month long lockdown, then it's unlikely to happen for a long time. There are a lot of other pending projects. The IA and IN are getting more importance now.

@Picdelamirand-oil
It doesn't matter too much to us, because we have between 6 and 9 serious prospects at the moment, which means that we will certainly conclude between 2 and 3 firm contracts in 2021. It doesn't matter too much for you either, because when you are ready we will produce most of your Rafales in India, so you won't have to wait except for technical reasons to satisfy your requests.
 
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randomradio

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My gut feeling also says same thing, with the second wave showing its true color in India its highly unlikely tuat we go for any major defense purchase.

There are major purchases planned, but they are all within the current limits of the defence budget. More Rafales will need more funding, but that's unlikely to happen.
 

randomradio

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It doesn't matter too much to us, because we have between 6 and 9 serious prospects at the moment, which means that we will certainly conclude between 2 and 3 firm contracts in 2021. It doesn't matter too much for you either, because when you are ready we will produce most of your Rafales in India, so you won't have to wait except for technical reasons to satisfy your requests.

Pretty much. In fact I'm hoping that Dassault will find it difficult to supply jets from France alone, so the Indian line is opened up for final assembly for export. This will put pressure on GoI to keep the line running in the long run.
 

STEPHEN COHEN

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Is it possible that we buy SU 57 MK 2 instead of RAFALES - F 4
Pretty much. In fact I'm hoping that Dassault will find it difficult to supply jets from France alone, so the Indian line is opened up for final assembly for export. This will put pressure on GoI to keep the line running in the long run.