Rafale RB of Indian Air Force : News and Discussions

maint1234

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All depend of the Quantity of the order.
Small Qty => low investments possible => fewer components made in India.
In the MMRCA (1 or 2) case, it is possible to create tools and bench, to invest in some machines so as to produce more parts.

But the high difference of the man pay roll betwwen India and France can open wide possibility.
MMRCA is a investment for the future.
HAL is the only negative in developing MMRCA.
Involve engineering companies like l&t, crompton greaves, Godrej , walchand, kakyani etc. Basically the suppliers of ISRO.
Totally sideline HAL.
These companies are very practical and know what can be developed inhouse and what has to be sourced from outside.
The so called Chinese HSR are all using MNC bearings till now , as the Chinese have no reliable bearings for speeds above 160 kmph. Dont waste time in inventing the wheel for the MMRCA. Leave that for the next iteration.
Biggest loser in India is the tata group that has invested 150000 crores in uk in the last 12 years and has lost most if it. Ratan tata is the worst head tata has ever had.
 

Ankit Kumar

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MMRCA is a investment for the future.
HAL is the only negative in developing MMRCA.
Involve engineering companies like l&t, crompton greaves, Godrej , walchand, kakyani etc. Basically the suppliers of ISRO.
Totally sideline HAL.
These companies are very practical and know what can be developed inhouse and what has to be sourced from outside.
The so called Chinese HSR are all using MNC bearings till now , as the Chinese have no reliable bearings for speeds above 160 kmph. Dont waste time in inventing the wheel for the MMRCA. Leave that for the next iteration.
Biggest loser in India is the tata group that has invested 150000 crores in uk in the last 12 years and has lost most if it. Ratan tata is the worst head tata has ever had.
HAL is actually not that bad. Re inventing the wheel however is the problem.

China has few examples of those Russian engines and documents to service those engines. They manufactured their copies from that much only.

HAL over time has had deep ToT of AL31FP and a lot of other engines. But why was HAL not given the responsibility to develop a Indian alternative from those expertise? Why we tried to reinvent Kaveri ignoring all the possible help we might have had?

What we need is to tear apart HALs rotor craft and fixed wing divisions first. And then work to simplify things. Make DRDO more responsible.

As of today there is no official request from IA for any kind of light tank, then why is DRDO spending it's resources on it? Have they completed ATGM projects needed by Army?
 

Bon Plan

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Dec 1, 2017
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HAL is actually not that bad.
???
Numerous are the exemples of delays and quality problems with HAL.
For MMRCA1, one of the problem was that HAL requested 2.6 more labour time for producing... HAL is a pachyderm : too lazy and too bureaucratic.

It is why Indian top brass requested Dassault to invest in India (36 Rafale off sets) to create a cluter so as to be an indian competitor to HAL, so as to stimulate HAL.
 

Nikhil

nik141993
Dec 1, 2017
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MMRCA is a investment for the future.
HAL is the only negative in developing MMRCA.
Involve engineering companies like l&t, crompton greaves, Godrej , walchand, kakyani etc. Basically the suppliers of ISRO.
Totally sideline HAL.
These companies are very practical and know what can be developed inhouse and what has to be sourced from outside.
The so called Chinese HSR are all using MNC bearings till now , as the Chinese have no reliable bearings for speeds above 160 kmph. Dont waste time in inventing the wheel for the MMRCA. Leave that for the next iteration.
Biggest loser in India is the tata group that has invested 150000 crores in uk in the last 12 years and has lost most if it. Ratan tata is the worst head tata has ever had.
You do not need to worry about Tata group...it will survive. It's has all the corrupt political class backing. How do you think the corrupt family survive and increase its wealth over 2 centuries.
 

Ankit Kumar

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???
Numerous are the exemples of delays and quality problems with HAL.
For MMRCA1, one of the problem was that HAL requested 2.6 more labour time for producing... HAL is a pachyderm : too lazy and too bureaucratic.

It is why Indian top brass requested Dassault to invest in India (36 Rafale off sets) to create a cluter so as to be an indian competitor to HAL, so as to stimulate HAL.

Among all the DPSUs in India , HAL is actually among the better performers. That's all I mean. HAL has issues , but that's that.
 
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_Anonymous_

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Dec 4, 2017
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Unlike assembling a M777 or K9 from its kits, Aircrafts are different. Untill the Navy and IAF orders a large number together, MII for fighter jets won't make economic sense.
Of course, it goes without saying that we need quantities. Otherwise the entire exercise is meaningless. This is more applicable & true of MMRCA 2.0 not the next tranche of 36 Rafales we may go in for though @Picdelamirand-oil is of the opinion that DRAL could assemble a couple of Rafales here. Whether this is a demonstration of their capabilities in India in anticipation of boosting their credentials for the MMRCA 2.0 or not is another question altogether.

I think you're echoing PKS's line of thought here which may not fit this case as his line of argument is completely derived from HAL's experience with the MKI's.
 
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Picdelamirand-oil

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Unlike assembling a M777 or K9 from its kits, Aircrafts are different. Untill the Navy and IAF orders a large number together, MII for fighter jets won't make economic sense.
Dassault's idea is to implement in DRAL the model that has been successful in France, which consists of producing civil and military aircraft with the same employees. When the civil market is weak, the majority of employees work in the military and the opposite is true when the military market is weak. This requires employees to have dual skills. That's why Dassault is currently developing civil production in DRAL and will be able to produce even small quantities of Rafale as MII if India orders them from us.
 

screambowl

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Dec 19, 2017
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Curfew imposed near Ambala airforce base, where rafales are landing. It seems there will be attempts to sabotage them. Govt will take no chance to disclose their locations where they are kept.

Neighbors are monitoring this very much because this is what they fear most. And had been trying to delay the procurement.
 

Ankit Kumar

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Of course, it goes without saying that we need quantities. Otherwise the entire exercise is meaningless. This is more applicable & true of MMRCA 2.0 not the next tranche of 36 Rafales we may go in for though @Picdelamirand-oil is of the opinion that DRAL could assemble a couple of Rafales here. Whether this is a demonstration of their capabilities in India in anticipation of boosting their credentials for the MMRCA 2.0 or not is another question altogether.

I think you're echoing PKS's line of thought here which may not fit this case as his line of argument is completely derived from HAL's experience with the MKI's.
As I said, if with a marginal increase in the acquisition cost of aircraft, a Pvt consortium in India is able to establish a Final Assembly and Rollout plant, I am all for it.
 

Ankit Kumar

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Dassault's idea is to implement in DRAL the model that has been successful in France, which consists of producing civil and military aircraft with the same employees. When the civil market is weak, the majority of employees work in the military and the opposite is true when the military market is weak. This requires employees to have dual skills. That's why Dassault is currently developing civil production in DRAL and will be able to produce even small quantities of Rafale as MII if India orders them from us.
That's Dassault, not Airbus. Indian Airlines have 1000+ Neos on confirmed orders. A final assembly plant for neos would have been awesome. But the market for business jets is really limited.
 

randomradio

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That means onother air base.
Total of 5x18 = 90. From years long I always said India will take at least 90.

unfortunately I never agree to those expecting 200+ or 300 birds. My heart hope so, but my brain don't.

France may anticipate the next order.... to boost french economy.

If there is no license production, then the numbers won't exceed 100. If there is license production, the numbers will easily exceed 200.
 

randomradio

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Now with the very recent BAE HAWK program, we should actually come to our senses and forget about manufacturing of MMRCA planes in India. Simply because it's not economically feasible anymore. A Rafale assembled in India will cost the IAF atleast 1.5 times more to procure.

If HAL manufactures, then Rafales will cost more than they do in France. If DRAL manufactures, Rafales will be 20% cheaper than in France, and I suppose with numbers, the value will come down even more. This is the reason why Dassault is now going to manufacture Falcons at DRAL.
 
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Picdelamirand-oil

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That's Dassault, not Airbus. Indian Airlines have 1000+ Neos on confirmed orders. A final assembly plant for neos would have been awesome. But the market for business jets is really limited.
One Rafale is ~3 business jets so the market size is roughly the same for fighter and business jet!
 

Ankit Kumar

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If HAL manufactures, then Rafales will cost more than they do in France. If DRAL manufactures, Rafales will be 20% cheaper than in France, and I suppose with numbers, the value will come down even more. This is the reason why Dassault is now going to manufacture Falcons at DRAL.
20% is a big number. If fully assembled airframe in India is anything under 100 million USD a piece. IAF will surely go for its intended 189 Rafales. But I doubt it. However as I said, I hope you are correct.
 

Ankit Kumar

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Devil knows, we are not even able to properly attack Pakistan even in retaliation. We are 10 times in economy and seven times in population.
Lack of political backing shouldn't be considered as lack of technical capabilities to execute things you are saying.
 

randomradio

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Where our 250+ sukhois fit in is a never ending puzzle for me ? We are still buying more of them but seem to have more faith in the m2000 of the 80s.

The MKIs need relevant upgrades to remain relevant. Which is why the newly upgraded M2000s and Mig-29s are currently much more valuable.

The MKI upgrade has been delayed by 5 years already. But MKI modernisation failed because the IAF prioritised their budget on the MMRCA that never came, and then it was diverted towards the Rafale GTG and S-400.
 

Saaho

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Dec 27, 2019
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Lack of political backing shouldn't be considered as lack of technical capabilities to execute things you are saying.
Well... that reminds of that old joke

Man 1: I got mugged!
Man 2: Wow where and what they took?
Man 1: In the park, they had a knife and they took my watch, mobile and wallet.
Man 2: But you had your Glock on you, right?
Man 1: Luckily they never saw it!

Whats the point of weapons and army if you never use them to defend yourself.
 
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