Project 75 India Diesel-electric Submarine Programs (SSK) : Updates and Discussions

sid4587

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Jan 10, 2018
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Hoping the French bring this one in.

They are saying the IN wants a sub that's 50% bigger than the Scorpene. Scorpene will weigh about 2000T with AIP, whereas the SMX Ocean is more than twice as heavy. So we have to see what happens.
Long range surface attack missile along with anti ship cruise missiles(obviously from torpedo tubes), are we sure shortfin barracuda ?
 

randomradio

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Nov 30, 2017
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French Are Selling 12 Barracuda To Aussies At 38 billion $ I don't Know we have that kind of money


https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/france-wins-50b-submarine-contract-20160426-goeuxh.html

What's with the pricing? @randomradio ; @vstol Jockey & anyone else with some constructive info on this matter.


It works out to almost 2.2 billion USD per piece. That's almost equivalent to the price of an SSN. Why not go in for additional SSN then and additional Scorpenes before we act on our indigenous sub project ? Why do we go in for another SSK however potent, which will perform littoral functions mostly?

It's more than $3B. That's not procurement price. It also includes running the subs for decades.

You can expect the sub itself to cost in the region of $1B.
 

RISING SUN

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Dec 3, 2017
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Indian Navy kicks off Rs 50,000 crore lethal submarine project, wants 500 km strike range cruise missiles on them
The Indian Navy has initiated the process to acquire six lethal submarines under the ambitious Project-75 India likely to cost over Rs 50,000 crore.

The Navy has initiated the tender process by issuing the initial Expression of Interest to foreign vendors willing to take part in the mega programme.

Under Project 75-India, the Navy wants to build six conventional diesel-electric submarines which would be almost 50 per cent bigger than the under-construction Scorpene class submarines being built at the Mazagon Dockyards Limited in Mumbai.

"The draft EOI has been issued to the foreign vendors who would be taking part in the competition along with the probable Indian partners who have also been invited to give suggestions on the strategic partnership policy under which the boats would be built," Sources in the Navy told ANI.

As per the requirements stated by the maritime force, it wants the submarines to be equipped with heavy-duty firepower as it wants the boats to have at least 12 Land Attack Cruise Missiles (LACM) along with Anti-Ship cruise missiles (ASCM).

Sources said that the Navy has also specified that the submarines should also be able to carry and launch 18 heavyweight torpedoes in the sea.

Compared with the Scorpene, the firepower required in the next line of submarines is many times more than what is being put on the Scorpenes which have the heavyweight torpedoes and the Exocet surface to surface missiles as their main weapons.

After clearing the procurement of these submarines in the Defence Acquisition Council, Defence Minister Nirmala Sitharaman has put a Navy officer as the in-charge of the project.

An empowered project committee has been formed with the Navy's Controller of Warship Production and Acquisition as the head of the panel including several other Joint Secretaries as its members.

Navy wants to have a mix of conventional and nuclear submarines in its fleet to manage its area of responsibility stretching from the Malacca Straits to the Indian Ocean Region.

While the Indian Navy has more than 100 submarines and surface warships, the Pakistani Navy has around 20 of these. However, the Indian Navy is building assets for tackling the Chinese Navy which operates occasionally in the IOR region.
Indian Navy kicks off Rs 50,000 crore lethal submarine project, wants 500 km strike range cruise missiles on them
 

Sathya

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Navy wants local inputs for Rs 40,000 crore submarines project

indian.jpg
 
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sid4587

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We want most of the critical technology to be Indian. And is it not a big change from Imported armed forces of India?
Sir, AIP we already achieved credible progess, next is steel and then brahmos capable torpedo tube?? as an ignorant about naval technology do you really think I shud absorb this information as a great indigenization effort ?? I must be missing something for which I need your help, is that 45% is by value or by tech ?
 

_Anonymous_

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Sir, AIP we already achieved credible progess, next is steel and then brahmos capable torpedo tube?? as an ignorant about naval technology do you really think I shud absorb this information as a great indigenization effort ?? I must be missing something for which I need your help, is that 45% is by value or by tech ?

Add the CMS to it & HWT. Sonars perhaps
We've yet to master the propulsion system - the heart of any sub. Add to that Towed arrays, decoys, LWT, etc.

I sincerely hope by the time we get to building our own subs from our own indigenous design, we master the rest of the technologies.
 

vstol Jockey

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Sir, AIP we already achieved credible progess, next is steel and then brahmos capable torpedo tube?? as an ignorant about naval technology do you really think I shud absorb this information as a great indigenization effort ?? I must be missing something for which I need your help, is that 45% is by value or by tech ?
By value it seems as we already have best of steels for this job. Scorpene was built using Indian Steel and so was Arihant and subsequent subs. We also have one of the best sonars of the world and also EW system for subs designed by DRDO including torpedo and missiles to go with such subs.
 

sid4587

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By value it seems as we already have best of steels for this job. Scorpene was built using Indian Steel and so was Arihant and subsequent subs. We also have one of the best sonars of the world and also EW system for subs designed by DRDO including torpedo and missiles to go with such subs.
I thought just whatever they mentioned, that seemed very less.
 

randomradio

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I think except for the HWT, the rest are / will go into the Arihant class of SSBN's. I believe the HWT will be ready in the next 4-5 years. If you don't believe me ask @randomradio

By the time we get our first sub, it's gonna be at least 10 years.

And I have no idea what elements of the sub will be indigenised, but weapons are sure to be mostly Indian.
 
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randomradio

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Soryu class is a good choice.Has the proper size and japanese tech is top notch.Cost might be an issue though.

The best option is the SMX Ocean. Greater cruise speed, greater endurance, greater range and pumpjet propulsion. It should easily be able to manage greater depths also.

Cruise speed is 14kn, while other subs can only manage up to 8kn. Endurance is 90 days for a crew of 60, while most other subs can manage 45-50 days with a crew of 30-35. And range is 18000nm versus 6000 to 12000nm on other subs. This makes the SMX Ocean a proper ocean going sub. What it means is the sub can go underwater to Malacca Strait in a week all the way from Vizag, stay underwater for a month, and then head back to Vizag underwater. So it can perform a full 45-day mission completely underwater from its home port at a range of 2000-2500Km. This is entirely impossible for all other subs, including Soryu.

Of course, all this comes at 2x the cost of other subs.

The next best option would either be the Type 216 or a larger Scorpene. But out of these two subs and the Soryu class, only the Soryu exists, while the other two are just paper boats. Any Russian option is also a paper boat, IN won't be interested in another Kilo class. Sweden does not have one either. So Soryu is practically the default option, while all the other designs are risky. But the Japanese have not replied to IN's RFI. So there's a good chance Soryu will not be an option. Only France, Germany, Russia and Sweden are competing.
 

Austerlitz

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The best option is the SMX Ocean. Greater cruise speed, greater endurance, greater range and pumpjet propulsion. It should easily be able to manage greater depths also.

Cruise speed is 14kn, while other subs can only manage up to 8kn. Endurance is 90 days for a crew of 60, while most other subs can manage 45-50 days with a crew of 30-35. And range is 18000nm versus 6000 to 12000nm on other subs. This makes the SMX Ocean a proper ocean going sub. What it means is the sub can go underwater to Malacca Strait in a week all the way from Vizag, stay underwater for a month, and then head back to Vizag underwater. So it can perform a full 45-day mission completely underwater from its home port at a range of 2000-2500Km. This is entirely impossible for all other subs, including Soryu.

Of course, all this comes at 2x the cost of other subs.

The next best option would either be the Type 216 or a larger Scorpene. But out of these two subs and the Soryu class, only the Soryu exists, while the other two are just paper boats. Any Russian option is also a paper boat, IN won't be interested in another Kilo class. Sweden does not have one either. So Soryu is practically the default option, while all the other designs are risky. But the Japanese have not replied to IN's RFI. So there's a good chance Soryu will not be an option. Only France, Germany, Russia and Sweden are competing.



After checking it,i agree.Japan didnt even answer RFI,so no chance.Amur has no chance unless some real hot tech from the yasen class was put in.Swedish A26 submarine is too small,cant carry sufficient brahmos and 500 km land attack cruise missiles.
So its between germans with U216 and French with SMX ocean or shortfin barracuda.A thing about ocean is use of UAV and UUV,and pumpjet propulsion.

But,BUT - australia selected 12 shortfin barracuda(which is less complex and powerful than ocean) and it cost them 38 billion dollars.More than 3 billion per boat with infra and support included.6 such boats would cost us around 20 billion dollars.Is the navy able to dish out that amount?

Moreover,Look at navy's demands.
Navy wants local inputs for Rs 40,000 crore submarines project
 

randomradio

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After checking it,i agree.Japan didnt even answer RFI,so no chance.Amur has no chance unless some real hot tech from the yasen class was put in.Swedish A26 submarine is too small,cant carry sufficient brahmos and 500 km land attack cruise missiles.
So its between germans with U216 and French with SMX ocean or shortfin barracuda.A thing about ocean is use of UAV and UUV,and pumpjet propulsion.

All the subs can actually carry 12 Brahmos. Even the 950T version of Amur has been advertised with 8 Brahmos VLS.

But,BUT - australia selected 12 shortfin barracuda(which is less complex and powerful than ocean) and it cost them 38 billion dollars.More than 3 billion per boat with infra and support included.6 such boats would cost us around 20 billion dollars.Is the navy able to dish out that amount?

That isn't the cost of the sub alone, it includes the cost of R&D, production facilities, training, and also maintenance for decades. The actual sub itself is likely less than half.


It's doable with local steel, AIP, weapons, CMS etc. I won't be surprised if IN asks for all or most of the electronics to be Indian anyway.