Project 75 India Diesel-electric Submarine Programs (SSK) : Updates and Discussions

[STEPHEN COHEN]

Not within the time we need it in. Plus we are not yet there when it comes to making our own diesel-electric engine or the batteries. Hence the need to import a design. Arihant is easier since we have competance in the nuclear field. It's all about different priorities.

We need to keep in mind the Growing
Threat of Both Pakistan and China

We dont have the luxury of time

Better to get more Scorpenes and Kilos Rather than go for
" UN OBTAINIUM " or as Mr Parrikar used to say " Specifications derived from Marvel Comics "

 

[randomradio]

We need to keep in mind the Growing
Threat of Both Pakistan and China

We dont have the luxury of time

Better to get more Scorpenes and Kilos Rather than go for
" UN OBTAINIUM "

LCA-Rafale difference. Need P-75I even if we get 100 Scorpenes.

or as Mr Parrikar used to say " Specifications derived from Marvel Comics "

Such attacks are perpetrated by the bureaucracy in order to reduce the prestige of the armed forces. Sometimes even by competitors, when a rival is offering these "specs from comics".

For example, a bureaucrat is supporting the induction of Typhoon, but the IAF insists Rafale's active cancellation makes it superior. So it's easy to insult the IAF by claiming they are relying on something that's only in science fiction movies.

Or a case of a competitor that cannot deliver a technology that a rival can. So the armed forces are attacked by the inferior company citing "unrealistic" requirements. (Currently happening with FRCV, where some companies are attacking one or two others due to their own inadequacies. If they succeed, then the specs will be diluted.)

DRDO also does this when the forces favour an imported item over DRDO's products since the imported item has features that DRDO failed to replicate. MoD bureaucrats also join in at the time.

American did the same when they wanted IAF to choose the Patriot over the S-400. They then had to swallow their own words and back off once presented with facts.

These things are very common. And will become even more so when the indigenous industry starts developing and some private companies cannot compete at the level needed. And politicians will also join in 'cause they have nothing better to do than attack the armed forces whenever it suits them.

You should always remember that the armed forces are not stupid.

 

[Ankit Kumar]

 

[A Person]

Sir , Australia has an agreement with
France that prevents sale of Barracuda specifically to India .

This is what I have read

Nothing specific to India. Australia negotiated exclusivity on the Shortfin Barracuda. So if another country, be it India or any other else, wants Shortfin Barracudas, they'll have to negotiate with Australia to get their permission before they can negotiate with France to get the submarine.

 

[Chain Smoker]

Nothing specific to India. Australia negotiated exclusivity on the Shortfin Barracuda. So if another country, be it India or any other else, wants Shortfin Barracudas, they'll have to negotiate with Australia to get their permission before they can negotiate with France to get the submarine.

Design phase of our SSN is completed so I don't understand what is the need of barracuda.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

Design phase of our SSN is completed so I don't understand what is the need of barracuda.

SSK version of Barracuda to get a stopgap waiting for your indigenious sub.

 

[Ashwin]

SSK version of Barracuda to get a stopgap waiting for your indigenious sub.

That stopgap is called Akula on lease.

It's for the Australian specific version of Barracuda, But the nuclear Barracuda is 100% French... And India and France have signed a strategic agreement.

If it was that easy we would be license producing Akula. Wouldnt we? With an even older strategic partner who is already sharing reactor design and sub designs.

Also, why excatly would we move from HEU to LEU reactor?

 

[A Person]

Design phase of our SSN is completed so I don't understand what is the need of barracuda.

I was not commenting on whether or not India needs the Shortfin. Only correcting a rumor/misinformation about Australia's exclusivity clause.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

With an even older strategic partner who is already sharing reactor design and sub designs.

Also, why excatly would we move from HEU to LEU reactor?

Sorry, the older strategic partner is France:

India has signed strategic partnership agreements with more than two dozen countries/supranational entities listed here in the chronological order of the pacts:

Agreements

Si.no.	Country	Year of Agreement signed	Reference
1	France	1997	[76]
2	Russia	2000	[77]
3	Germany	2001	[78]
4	Mauritius	2003	[79]
5	Iran	2003	[80]
6	United Kingdom	2004	[81]

 

[Hydra]

Quad become a reality now, & we even signed a logistical sharing agreement with Japanese. still we didn't get any offer from Japanese soryu class submarine, or why we are not pursuing it?

 

[Ashwin]

Sorry, the older strategic partner is France:

No its not.

Indo-Soviet Treaty of Friendship and Cooperation - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Bad reading of history. With France we always had a buyer seller relationship. Give me one instance where France leased or JV of high tech military hardware? Is there French kudankulam that I don't know about? You can't even give kaveri consultancy after giving Rafale deal.

Even china is a strategic partner as back as 2005 !. Are they offering type 95?

 

[Saaho]

No its not.

The classic mistake of confusing Soviet Union for Russia. Two very different countries.

 

[Ashwin]

The classic mistake of confusing Soviet Union for Russia. Two very different countries.

Even the indian embassy says it's a continuation.

Relations between India and Russia are rooted in history, mutual trust and mutually beneficial cooperation. This is a strategic partnership that has withstood the test of time, and which enjoys the support of the people of both countries.

Diplomatic relations between India and Russia began even before India achieved independence, on 13 April 1947. In the period immediately following independence the goal for India was attaining economic self-sufficiency through investment in heavy industry. The Soviet Union invested in several new enterprises in the areas of heavy machine-building, mining, energy production and steel plants. During India’s second Five Year Plan, of the sixteen heavy industry projects set up, eight were initiated with the help of the Soviet Union. This included the establishment of the world famous IIT Bombay.

A watershed moment in relations between India and the Soviet Union was the signing of the Treaty of Peace and Friendship in August 1971. The Treaty was the manifestation of shared goals of the two nations as well as a blueprint for the strengthening of regional and global peace and security.

The nineties were a tumultuous period for both countries. In 1990, India extended loans to the USSR in the form of technical credit and in 1991, India extended food credit and gift of 20,000 tonnes of rice. After the dissolution of the Soviet Union, India and Russia entered into a new Treaty of Friendship and Cooperation in January 1993 and a bilateral Military-Technical Cooperation agreement in 1994.

In 2000, during the visit of President Putin to India, the partnership acquired a new qualitative character, that of a Strategic Partnership. The strategic partnership institutionalized annual meetings between the Prime Minister of India and the President of Russia and meetings have been held regularly since then. During the 2010 visit of President Dmitry Medvedev the relationship was elevated to the status of a Special and Privileged Strategic Partnership. So far, eighteen Annual India-Russia Summits have been held since 2000. These have led to personal contacts and close understanding at the highest level between our leaders.

Embassy of India, Moscow (Russia)

indianembassy-moscow.gov.in

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

No its not.

Indo-Soviet Treaty of Friendship and Cooperation - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Bad reading of history. With France we always had a buyer seller relationship. Give me one instance where France leased or JV of high tech military hardware? Is there French kudankulam that I don't know about? You can't even give kaveri consultancy after giving Rafale deal.

Even china is a strategic partner as back as 2005 !. Are they offering type 95?

Treaty of friendship and cooperation is not a strategic partnership agreements. There is lot of such treaties that are just normal diplomacy.
And like I explain several time, it's not France who refuse kaveri consultancy but India which refuses to pay its share according to its own laws.
In this type of offsets, the percentage of the foreign country's share is limited by Indian laws, presumably to protect the ownership of the result so that it is acquired by India. So France proposed the maximum allowed and India refused, finding that its share was too expensive.

 

[Ashwin]

Treaty of friendship and cooperation is not a strategic partnership agreements. There is lot of such treaties that are just normal diplomacy.
And like I explain several time, it's not France who refuse kaveri consultancy but India which refuses to pay its share according to its own laws.

Yes it is a strategic partnership. And the value of so called strategic has been diluted over the years by adding too many countries. Having it doesn't mean you will automatically share high tech military hardware let alone nuclear.

Also, Kaveri is a case in point how India French relationship still remains buyer seller. There isn't even a single project we can point out as a mutual collaboration sucess story.

 

[_Anonymous_]

Yes it is a strategic partnership. And the value of so called strategic has been diluted over the years by adding too many countries. Having it doesn't mean you will automatically share high tech military hardware let alone nuclear.

Also, Kaveri is a case in point how India French relationship still remains buyer seller. There isn't even a single project we can point out as a mutual collaboration sucess story.

The French are helping us refine our thermo nuclear devices with access to their megajoule project. They're also being consulted on the N reactor to power our SSN & next generation SSBN apart from the sub designs or so went the grapevine I picked at MDL a long time ago which in turn was confirmed by infrequent comments on the same online.

All this is addition to the co operation we're having with them in various other fields like intelligence, counter terrorism, cyber space, espionage, counter espionage, support for us at the UN, etc .

Then we've the upcoming N power plants in Maharashtra to be set up. All this is apart from the normal trade & Commerce we're conducting. In time, we'd be sharing with the French the same relationship we had with the SU & to a lesser extent with Russia w/o sacrificing our interests with the latter but cognizant of their limitations. It also helps to diversify our strategic relationship basket.

 

[Saaho]

Even the indian embassy says it's a continuation.

Diplomatic fluff vs realpoltik. It says "Diplomatic relations between India and Russia began even before India achieved independence". There was no Republic of India before well republic day. There was no sovereignty.

USSR sought influence in south Asia. Russia seeks business.
Their interests are way apart. Russia is no USSR. It wont behave as one.

These days on matters of strategic importance to India, you will find Russia more sided with China.

Give me one instance where France leased or JV of high tech military hardware? Is there French kudankulam that I don't know about? You can't even give kaveri consultancy after giving Rafale deal.

I will say French diplomatic support to India during 1998 N-test was beyond a relationship of pure buyer and seller.

Recent french support to India on Kashmir in UNSC also comes to mind... France vetoed China.

France vetoes China's move to hold UNSC meeting on Kashmir: Reports

france has vetoed chinas move to convene a un security council unsc meeting on kashmir reports quoting french diplomatic sources said quotkashmir will not be discussed in unsc our position has been clear kashmir issue has to be treated bilaterallyquot french diplomatic sources said in august the...

inshorts.com

Is there French kudankulam that I don't know about?

Civil nuclear cooperation 'important pillar' of India-France engagement: Sushma Swaraj

Cooperation in defence and space constitute the principal pillars of the bilateral strategic partnership, Swaraj said.

economictimes.indiatimes.com

A certain Jitapur comes to mind.

Strategically, France is more aligned with India simply because we dont have China as the road block. Russia has to support China because of common antagonism wrt US and NATO. So, Russian hand can become constrained.
France is lesser constrained by China. On many strategic matters France has shown a front that is unencumbered by US, UK and EU.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

There isn't even a single project we can point out as a mutual collaboration sucess story.

I am sad.
No, it's not true, I found a very successful cooperation: I bought a nice pair of shoes in India in February 2019 and I still wear them! If that is not a successful cooperation!

 

[Hydra]

Yes it is a strategic partnership. And the value of so called strategic has been diluted over the years by adding too many countries. Having it doesn't mean you will automatically share high tech military hardware let alone nuclear.

Also, Kaveri is a case in point how India French relationship still remains buyer seller. There isn't even a single project we can point out as a mutual collaboration sucess story.

Even proposed maitri missile failed to kick start. French are very tough to negotiate, a price payed by india for keeping away USA trom us.

 

[Ashwin]

The French are helping us refine our thermo nuclear devices with access to their megajoule project. They're also being consulted on the N reactor to power our SSN & next generation SSBN apart from the sub designs or so the grapevine I've heard at MDL a long time ago which in turn was confirmed by infrequent comments on the same online.

All this is addition to the co operation we're sharing with them in various other fields like intelligence, counter terrorism, cyber space, espionage, counter espionage, support for us at the UN, etc .

Then we've the upcoming N power plants in Maharashtra to be set up. All this is apart from the normal trade & Commerce we're conducting. In time, we'd be sharing with the French the same relationship we had with the SU & to a lesser extent with Russia w/o sacrificing our interests with the latter but cognizant of their limitations. It also helps to diversify our strategic relationship basket.

French has no expertise in sub HEU reactors. All classified we can only theorize. Hope it is happening.

There is no upcoming nuclear power plant unless it's signed. IMO, there is more chance of the second batch of VVER reactors than Areva.

Im not saying there is no cooperation but its nowhere as close strategic tech sharing as russians. But, Since with the all-new development of proximity with west doors are open.

I am sad.
No, it's not true, I found a very successful cooperation: I bought a nice pair of shoes in India in February 2019 and I still wear them! If that is not a successful cooperation!

Better joke than barracuda license production at MDL.