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Pralay and Shaurya: Conventional Strike Surface-to-Surface Missiles
- Thread starter Ashwin
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Building infrastructure along LAC & Emergency procurement s for war are completed ?
I was under the impression, that we ll spend the money on infrastructure until indigenous weapon orders can be placed & minimum essential imports.
Also from the way we posturing on buying Russian oil, seems like we won't buy Russian weapons instead only oil.
Tu-160 hasn't been made for standard bombing runs, it only delivers CMs. B-1 and Tu-22 can do what you guys are thinking of, but we have no need for it, as already mentioned in Suryakiran's post. We have no need for it as a traditional bomber, apart from the fact that it's not made for it.
The Tu-160 can be used to overwhelm air defences with multiple CMs. The frontal RCS of the Tu-160 is 0.1m2, no different from the Rafale. And it can carry a lot of short-medium range CMs in large numbers, unlike its more dedicated complement of 3000+Km CMs. That's saturation extreme. If you use fighters for that, then you need a large number of them, and there's nothing stealthy about numbers. Missiles launched at low altitude and the missiles themselves following a terrain-hugging profile can do its job without alerting the enemy.
It can carry 24 Kh-15, which is basically a Cold War era CM in the same class as a SCALP or JASSM. Now imagine each bomber carrying 24 stealth CMs instead. Each bomber sortie is basically equivalent to a land-based missile regiment.
It can even be used to attack Chinese port cities by hiding behind civilian aircraft in the SCS.
The only issue is something that Ignorants has been trying to bring to our notice in his posts here, and it's something I simply call superpower inventories. We need an extremely large inventory of missiles, like how the superpowers do things. Here's an example:
The US Department of Defense (DoD) is increasing potential long-term production quantities of Lockheed Martin Joint Air-to-Surface Standoff Missiles (JASSM) from a possible maximum of 4,900 to a possible maximum of 10,000.
USAF aims to double long-term JASSM production up to 10,000 units
The US Department of Defense (DoD) is increasing potential long-term production quantities of Lockheed Martin Joint Air-to-Surface Standoff Missiles (JASSM) from a possible maximum of 4,900 to a possible maximum of 10,000.www.flightglobal.com
This is not something we can do today, but maybe 5 years later, it should be possible. And this is when bombers will become important, since it's obvious fighters and land-based TELs won't be up for the task.
2018-22 was our emergency purchases cycle. 2023-2027 will be our MRFA, LCA Mk2 cycle, including AWACS and refuellers. So 2028-2032, should see us getting contracts for next gen tech. So that's AMCA, Tu-160/PAK DA (hell, let's count in the B-21 as well), Su-57/F-35 etc. Basically 2028 onwards should give us the ability to compete at the superpower level.
Building infrastructure along LAC & Emergency procurement s for war are completed ?
I was under the impression, that we ll spend the money on infrastructure until indigenous weapon orders can be placed & minimum essential imports.
Also from the way we posturing on buying Russian oil, seems like we won't buy Russian weapons instead only oil.
Ok, TU can take down Chinese AD at long range with CMs. What is after that? Sitting idle and fighting wat along LAC and allowing chines to fly safely deep inside their territory? If you want to utilize the potential of having a bomber fleets, then that platform should be capable of doing missile attack, carpet bombing & precision bombing. TU is designed asper Soviet doctrine, ie precision nuke strike and possibly battle group attack, its not a conventional bomber by any standards. What we need is conventional/nuke strike capable like B1 or B2.Tu-160 hasn't been made for standard bombing runs, it only delivers CMs. B-1 and Tu-22 can do what you guys are thinking of, but we have no need for it, as already mentioned in Suryakiran's post. We have no need for it as a traditional bomber, apart from the fact that it's not made for it.
The Tu-160 can be used to overwhelm air defences with multiple CMs. The frontal RCS of the Tu-160 is 0.1m2, no different from the Rafale. And it can carry a lot of short-medium range CMs in large numbers, unlike its more dedicated complement of 3000+Km CMs. That's saturation extreme. If you use fighters for that, then you need a large number of them, and there's nothing stealthy about numbers. Missiles launched at low altitude and the missiles themselves following a terrain-hugging profile can do its job without alerting the enemy.
It can carry 24 Kh-15, which is basically a Cold War era CM in the same class as a SCALP or JASSM. Now imagine each bomber carrying 24 stealth CMs instead. Each bomber sortie is basically equivalent to a land-based missile regiment.
It can even be used to attack Chinese port cities by hiding behind civilian aircraft in the SCS.
The only issue is something that Ignorants has been trying to bring to our notice in his posts here, and it's something I simply call superpower inventories. We need an extremely large inventory of missiles, like how the superpowers do things. Here's an example:
The US Department of Defense (DoD) is increasing potential long-term production quantities of Lockheed Martin Joint Air-to-Surface Standoff Missiles (JASSM) from a possible maximum of 4,900 to a possible maximum of 10,000.USAF aims to double long-term JASSM production up to 10,000 units
The US Department of Defense (DoD) is increasing potential long-term production quantities of Lockheed Martin Joint Air-to-Surface Standoff Missiles (JASSM) from a possible maximum of 4,900 to a possible maximum of 10,000.
This is not something we can do today, but maybe 5 years later, it should be possible. And this is when bombers will become important, since it's obvious fighters and land-based TELs won't be up for the task.
2018-22 was our emergency purchases cycle. 2023-2027 will be our MRFA, LCA Mk2 cycle, including AWACS and refuellers. So 2028-2032, should see us getting contracts for next gen tech. So that's AMCA, Tu-160/PAK DA (hell, let's count in the B-21 as well), Su-57/F-35 etc. Basically 2028 onwards should give us the ability to compete at the superpower level.
Inducting TU160 will be a mistake like what we did with mig29. Later one is the last line of defense for soviet cities where we used it as our primary defense for IAF. I dont wann IAF making similar mistake by inducting which is not suitable for our needs.
So no answer to where will you use the missiles? Typical of saying first lets buy the weapon, then lets figure out what to do with it.
Its a pretty simple query, where will you use the free fall bombs in the China Pak context. And yes, because I am a dimwit, maybe you could be a bright wit and actually enlighten me.
Ah , yes @crap . It takes one to recognise another or is it a case of choron ko saare nazar aate hain chor ?
A bit rich from someone who starts his day online out here at 8 pm ( damn !! That time again ) upto 8 am IST regularly @ how do people ....
I see all my harangues have not been in vain @ORBAT .
The subtle shifting of ground while appearing to hold it has already commenced , LOL. Not that I'm complaining .
Frankly I wonder how is posting a video about the Blitzkrieg of the Nazis across mostly flat terrain in the west during WW-2 , going to explain mountain warfare in the Himalayas . I mean where's the analogy here , what's the connection ?
And if anyone is going to call " actual war fighting " in the WW-2 SHORT due to "maneuver warfare " , it's better they don't say so in front of the Russians or Ukrainians lest they have the furniture on their face re arranged .
Operation Barbarossa & it's successors both on the sides of the Wehrmacht & the SU were fought mostly on flat ground where the only disturbances were the elements namely the infamous Russian winter & the Rasputitsa in spring / summer. Besides look at the sheer numbers both the sides threw at each other.
Except for the initial phases where the SU was caught on the wrong foot never expecting an attack , all through the war & the particularly towards the end when the counter attack was launched the ratio always was 1.5 - 2-2.5 -3 :1 . Yet it took 3 yrs & a whole lot of factors for the tide to turn against Germany notwithstanding the famous Rommel dash in 1942-43 up the Middle East to the German push down south to the Caucasus which was cut short due to German unpreparedness in case of the latter & Rommel's defeat in case of the former.
www.timesofisrael.com
As AVM Subramanian rightly noted that since the initiative doesn't lie with India w.r.t the attack , the Indian Armed Forces will prepare itself to survive the deadly initial barrages through dispersal of assets , carving out bases in the mountains so as to not be totally dependent on the upcoming & existing infrastructure given it's vulnerabilities which to sum it up would translate to those incapable of understanding simple logic - a war of attrition . That's how defenders fight the war going back to first principles.
Further , while on the topic of first principles , whosoever believes that the initial offensive lasting a week or a fortnight or a month having failed the Chinese would go back , kindly explain why the Russians aren't doing so for doesn't the same logic apply here ? For good reason , there's a lot more at stake than territory . I don't know how much will it take to din this fact thru thick skulls. It's almost as bad as engaging with Paddy . Hence the condescension & ridicule I guess .
During WW-2 every country across western Europe was fighting to retain it's independence . This existential fight was on the eastern front which succeeded & didn't precede the Blitzkrieg in western Europe. Similarly the Sino Indian war or the war to invade Taiwan isn't an existential war for the Chinese people as much as it's an existential war for the supreme ruler of China namely Xi .
I could've termed it into an existential war for the CCP too but the fact that Xi's usurped all power is known to everyone in China , hence any failure is his alone & that of his clique. Having said that , the Chinese are known throughout history to turn with a vengeance on the rulers whom they see as discredited or "having lost the mandate of heaven " as it's put in Mandarin which is why their internal revolutions have been far more bloody & long lasting affairs than their external wars & sometimes both these collide as it happened in the so called "century of humiliation." This is to say that the CCP doesn't automatically stand acquitted of all charges & escape culpability.
This is the crux behind why this is going to be a lengthy war of attrition . How long I can't say ?! Hell , I can't even predict whether the thinking within our security managers is as I've laid it out as their very own who've just recently quit service are still accusing their own forces of following outdated concepts like deterrence by denial rather than thru building up capacity.
A Sino Indian war in my opinion will take place only when the Han is supremely convinced of his own invincibility . That's a few years away , mostly around 2028 ( yes , that date again ) or later which in my opinion is 2030 or later . If there was any doubts on this score , the recent Ukrainian war & Russia's dismal performance in it would've driven home certain truths .
To draw an analogy , we can consider the Indo Pakistan equation. Can India seize PoK from Pakistan within the threshold of the N option being exercised today ? Perhaps we can , but there'd be a lot of huffing & puffing involved & we can't even be confident we'd manage it in toto even after a lengthy war of attrition across the mountains & valleys of Gilgit Baltistan .
Having said that , we can expect some intense action across the LAC this year . Why ? Coz it's 2023 exactly 3 yrs since the events of 2020 . Since 2006 but especially since 2013 China's followed a predictable trajectory wherein they've focused on each of their problematic borders - whether sea or land , in a sequential manner .
If last year - 2022 , was all about Taiwan & 2021 was about the ECS & the ASEAN countries then 2023 will be like 2020. This doesn't mean the other flash points won't see action . They will , just that it won't be as intense as it usually is in the designated year they choose to focus on a particular spot .
A bit rich from someone who starts his day online out here at 8 pm ( damn !! That time again ) upto 8 am IST regularly @ how do people ....
I see all my harangues have not been in vain @ORBAT .
The subtle shifting of ground while appearing to hold it has already commenced , LOL. Not that I'm complaining .
Frankly I wonder how is posting a video about the Blitzkrieg of the Nazis across mostly flat terrain in the west during WW-2 , going to explain mountain warfare in the Himalayas . I mean where's the analogy here , what's the connection ?
And if anyone is going to call " actual war fighting " in the WW-2 SHORT due to "maneuver warfare " , it's better they don't say so in front of the Russians or Ukrainians lest they have the furniture on their face re arranged .
Operation Barbarossa & it's successors both on the sides of the Wehrmacht & the SU were fought mostly on flat ground where the only disturbances were the elements namely the infamous Russian winter & the Rasputitsa in spring / summer. Besides look at the sheer numbers both the sides threw at each other.
Except for the initial phases where the SU was caught on the wrong foot never expecting an attack , all through the war & the particularly towards the end when the counter attack was launched the ratio always was 1.5 - 2-2.5 -3 :1 . Yet it took 3 yrs & a whole lot of factors for the tide to turn against Germany notwithstanding the famous Rommel dash in 1942-43 up the Middle East to the German push down south to the Caucasus which was cut short due to German unpreparedness in case of the latter & Rommel's defeat in case of the former.
80 years ago, Nazis almost knocked Britain out of WWII to take the entire Mideast
In '1942: Britain at the Brink,' historian Taylor Downing looks at bitter defeats for the UK that nearly threatened the empire, including Jews who took haven in Mandatory Palestine
www.timesofisrael.com
As AVM Subramanian rightly noted that since the initiative doesn't lie with India w.r.t the attack , the Indian Armed Forces will prepare itself to survive the deadly initial barrages through dispersal of assets , carving out bases in the mountains so as to not be totally dependent on the upcoming & existing infrastructure given it's vulnerabilities which to sum it up would translate to those incapable of understanding simple logic - a war of attrition . That's how defenders fight the war going back to first principles.
Further , while on the topic of first principles , whosoever believes that the initial offensive lasting a week or a fortnight or a month having failed the Chinese would go back , kindly explain why the Russians aren't doing so for doesn't the same logic apply here ? For good reason , there's a lot more at stake than territory . I don't know how much will it take to din this fact thru thick skulls. It's almost as bad as engaging with Paddy . Hence the condescension & ridicule I guess .
During WW-2 every country across western Europe was fighting to retain it's independence . This existential fight was on the eastern front which succeeded & didn't precede the Blitzkrieg in western Europe. Similarly the Sino Indian war or the war to invade Taiwan isn't an existential war for the Chinese people as much as it's an existential war for the supreme ruler of China namely Xi .
I could've termed it into an existential war for the CCP too but the fact that Xi's usurped all power is known to everyone in China , hence any failure is his alone & that of his clique. Having said that , the Chinese are known throughout history to turn with a vengeance on the rulers whom they see as discredited or "having lost the mandate of heaven " as it's put in Mandarin which is why their internal revolutions have been far more bloody & long lasting affairs than their external wars & sometimes both these collide as it happened in the so called "century of humiliation." This is to say that the CCP doesn't automatically stand acquitted of all charges & escape culpability.
This is the crux behind why this is going to be a lengthy war of attrition . How long I can't say ?! Hell , I can't even predict whether the thinking within our security managers is as I've laid it out as their very own who've just recently quit service are still accusing their own forces of following outdated concepts like deterrence by denial rather than thru building up capacity.
A Sino Indian war in my opinion will take place only when the Han is supremely convinced of his own invincibility . That's a few years away , mostly around 2028 ( yes , that date again ) or later which in my opinion is 2030 or later . If there was any doubts on this score , the recent Ukrainian war & Russia's dismal performance in it would've driven home certain truths .
To draw an analogy , we can consider the Indo Pakistan equation. Can India seize PoK from Pakistan within the threshold of the N option being exercised today ? Perhaps we can , but there'd be a lot of huffing & puffing involved & we can't even be confident we'd manage it in toto even after a lengthy war of attrition across the mountains & valleys of Gilgit Baltistan .
Having said that , we can expect some intense action across the LAC this year . Why ? Coz it's 2023 exactly 3 yrs since the events of 2020 . Since 2006 but especially since 2013 China's followed a predictable trajectory wherein they've focused on each of their problematic borders - whether sea or land , in a sequential manner .
If last year - 2022 , was all about Taiwan & 2021 was about the ECS & the ASEAN countries then 2023 will be like 2020. This doesn't mean the other flash points won't see action . They will , just that it won't be as intense as it usually is in the designated year they choose to focus on a particular spot .
Calling each others post out as **** , you guys could have jointly submitted bid for this tender instead of fighting here, usually very good money, payment within 45 working days 
What exactly prevented you from participating ? Constipation ?Calling each others post out as **** , you guys could have jointly submitted bid for this tender instead of fighting here, usually very good money, payment within 45 working days
View attachment 25876
Yes, need them in huge numbers ASAP.
No one is perfect. People make mistakes, so does defence organisations or even a country's air/land/water force. In our case also the government. 114 Rafales was a no-brainer. Even a repeat order for 2 more squadrons should have happened. But alas
Tu-160M2 and PAK DA should both be looked-at seriously. Arup Raha is NOT a nobody. Gov. must pay heed.
Putin has already said that there is NOTHING which Russia has that won't be given to India. It's our will, what we want.
Totally disagree. FGFA and AMCA both are in different class. It is like comparing a heavy air dominance fighter like Su-30MKI to a middle-weight omni-role Rafale. Both come with different capability which complement each other and not supersede.
AMCA has only 1.5 tonne internal load capacity and will carry 6.5 tonne internal fuel. Compare that with Su-57 that has much more internal volume and carries 10.3 tonne fuel. For air-dominance, bigger is always better.
Another point is that we should have got FGFAs from 2025 but we'll have to wait at least post 2032 to have any substantial AMCA fleet.
Just imagine our Air Force with 114 Rafales and 50 odd FGFA's during this decade. But we missed that thanks to political/other oversight.
Money for border infrastructure is not coming out of the defence budget alone. As for emergency procurement, it should continue this year as well.
As for Russia, and imports in general, it could be limited. Direct imports may switch towards exotic tech, like stealth bombers and nuke subs, or tech we don't have, like transports and wide-body aircraft. Normal imports may happen through JVs, like FICV, the new artillery gun RFI (seems to be for 400 guns).
Since only the Russians have a proven track record of providing exotic tech, this may not change for a few more years. We already have the Brahmos JV with them, and we have been receiving help on SSBNs, so naturally, new tech could be made available in the future. And if the Russians provide something, the West will attempt to match that. We are still a minimum of 20 years away from truly getting rid of imports.
The war has temporarily postponed import orders too. GoI has directed MoD and the forces to focus on indigenous equipment first. 70-80% of the capital budget being spent on indigenous contracts will be very helpful in terms of optics during elections. Imports can restart again after elections anyway.
We have no need for carpet bombing. Missile strikes are more than enough, there is no need to stop it just 'cause we took our their AD, plenty of other targets around.
In the short run, the Tu-160 can complement the IRF. In the long run we need strategic bombers simply because others will also have them. It's necessary for metoo politics. For example, GoI could go to China for a visit during tensions, and a Tu-160 could circle one of their bases in the SCS as part of gunboat diplomacy.
In any case, we won't be importing it, it will only be a lease. A 5+5 or 10+5 year lease will buy us the time needed to develop our own stealth bomber by the 2040s.
Yes, need them in huge numbers ASAP.
No one is perfect. People make mistakes, so does defence organisations or even a country's air/land/water force. In our case also the government. 114 Rafales was a no-brainer. Even a repeat order for 2 more squadrons should have happened. But alas
Tu-160M2 and PAK DA should both be looked-at seriously. Arup Raha is NOT a nobody. Gov. must pay heed.
Putin has already said that there is NOTHING which Russia has that won't be given to India. It's our will, what we want.
Totally disagree. FGFA and AMCA both are in different class. It is like comparing a heavy air dominance fighter like Su-30MKI to a middle-weight omni-role Rafale. Both come with different capability which complement each other and not supersede.
AMCA has only 1.5 tonne internal load capacity and will carry 6.5 tonne internal fuel. Compare that with Su-57 that has much more internal volume and carries 10.3 tonne fuel. For air-dominance, bigger is always better.
Another point is that we should have got FGFAs from 2025 but we'll have to wait at least post 2032 to have any substantial AMCA fleet.
Just imagine our Air Force with 114 Rafales and 50 odd FGFA's during this decade. But we missed that thanks to political/other oversight.
When we were working on FGFA, AMCA was originally designed to be a much simpler 5th gen fighters based around the F414. It didn't have supercruise. But once they decided they will need a new engine with supercruise, FGFA became unimportant.
Point being, with the new AMCA design, we no longer needed 200+ FGFA. Now the only question is, given there is still a difference in capabilities between the Su-57 and AMCA, whether we need 40-60 Su-57s or zero. I'm not expecting license production of the Su-57, never mind an FGFA development.
At the very least, until MRFA has progressed to the end stage or concluded, I don't see anything happening on this end. As per official info as of this time, the IAF's only interested in a 4-jet air force based around the LCA, MKI, Rafale and AMCA. So the Su-57 is fighting an uphill battle. In any case, the jet won't be ready until 2025, so let's worry about it then. The current focus is on MRFA and LCA.
I don't get how people lives their lives by just thinking about booze and stalking all the time. Well, to each his own, I guess.
Whether it's warfare conducted on flat terrain or in the mountains, it's still gonna be fast. As per Hellfire, taking PoK would take a week from the plains and 2 weeks via mountain route, so it's only twice as long. And it's possible he did not consider the use of our new Mountain Strike Corps in said invasion since he made his post well before its existence was publicly revealed, never mind the fact that it didn't exist before 2020.
Russia is doing its own thing in Ukraine, and even the Russians don't know what. This is what happens when you go in unprepared to fight. But we can all collectively bet the Chinese will be extremely well-prepared before they try such antics with their neighbours.
Taiwan is not an existential threat to Xi or the CCP...
I wonder what gave Ignorants that idea, the answer's probably in the name.
Why? 'Cause in China the people are largely irrelevant. The Chinese can stomach a loss to the US, if at all, 'cause that's the only way they will actually lose in Taiwan. Stomaching a loss to India will be far harder, but if they manage to take some land and claim victory a la 1965 style, then it won't matter. In both cases, the situation is easily contained.
Whether it's warfare conducted on flat terrain or in the mountains, it's still gonna be fast. As per Hellfire, taking PoK would take a week from the plains and 2 weeks via mountain route, so it's only twice as long. And it's possible he did not consider the use of our new Mountain Strike Corps in said invasion since he made his post well before its existence was publicly revealed, never mind the fact that it didn't exist before 2020.
Russia is doing its own thing in Ukraine, and even the Russians don't know what. This is what happens when you go in unprepared to fight. But we can all collectively bet the Chinese will be extremely well-prepared before they try such antics with their neighbours.
Taiwan is not an existential threat to Xi or the CCP...
I wonder what gave Ignorants that idea, the answer's probably in the name.
Why? 'Cause in China the people are largely irrelevant. The Chinese can stomach a loss to the US, if at all, 'cause that's the only way they will actually lose in Taiwan. Stomaching a loss to India will be far harder, but if they manage to take some land and claim victory a la 1965 style, then it won't matter. In both cases, the situation is easily contained.
It's actually live their lives but blame me for the time stamp on each post & the bragging about boozing earlier on .
That's what I've often said about painting a huge target on oneself & then blaming others for taking pot shots. In other words people living in glass houses shouldn't go about chucking stones .
Mountain warfare will be extremely quick if they utterly destroy our infrastructure , mfg capacity , air power , IADS , C&C , TBMs etc . Since this isn't 1962 & even we're not so incompetent , it's going to be a long drawn out campaign. Ditto for Paxtan . I raised the issue of local population combined with elements of the armed forces staging a successful insurgency a la Iraq in the event things went as per the IA plan with Hellfire & he didn't even come up with a counter save to say the IA would treat them like they did combatants .
Let's just say winning the war & winning the peace are two separate issues . The US experience in both Afganistan & Iraq are good illustrations of the point I'm trying to make . Besides neither are we the US nor Pakistan , Afganistan or 2003 vintage Iraq .
The MSC is still work in progress with one division raised , no sight of the second one & since 2018 has become some sort of a Guinea pig to test new IA battlefield doctrines namely the IBGs . Ostensible reasons are the same as always lack of funds & rationalising manpower.
Ofc China'd be well prepared especially after the Russian debacle in Ukraine . Hell that's precisely what I've been arguing ever since this dispute broke out , which is why I anticipate the whole issue will begin after 2028 ( yup that date again ) , mostly around 2030 . Hopefully we will be prepared too. Fingers crossed.
I thought I clearly wrote the WAR on Taiwan would be an existential threat to Xi & his clique in terms of the results . I don't know where did the "Taiwan threat " come from & what's it supposed to mean .
I also don't know whether I lack the necessary powers of articulation in stating my PoV , (which I don't think is the case as everyone else seems to get what I'm writing & I'm not even dropping cryptic hints Hellfire style ) or resident story teller here is a selective reader or on some trip .... I think I'd pause here & not yield to temptation lest I've to see cranky complaints once more .
And we're talking of the same Chinese people who've launched bloody revolts to get rid of the Yuan dynasty or the Taiping rebellion among various other rebellions major & minor which rocked the Qing Empire bringing it to breaking point being the cause of it's demise or the An Lushan rebellion from which the early mediaeval Tang Dynasty never recovered.
It helps to have some cursory knowledge of Chinese history before making such laughably immature & stupid claims especially since it's public information that the budget for internal security far outstrips the defence budget till date in PRC .
The Sino Indian war occurred in 1962 . What we had in 1967 was the Battles of Nathu la & Cho la which the Chinese'd rather forget . The 1965 war was the Indo Pak war .
Since it's clear resident story teller's run out of points , we've entered repetition territory more than some time ago , goal posts are being shifted ( as usual ) & basically the entire debate has boiled down to qibbling apart from the usual conjecture mixed with facts as per SOP of resident storyteller , I've NOT grown used to in spite of all these years ( & frankly even more bored of seeing ) , instead of imitating manchild & becoming a pedant , I'd sign off on the topic as I've said whatever I've had to on the matter .
That's what I've often said about painting a huge target on oneself & then blaming others for taking pot shots. In other words people living in glass houses shouldn't go about chucking stones .
Mountain warfare will be extremely quick if they utterly destroy our infrastructure , mfg capacity , air power , IADS , C&C , TBMs etc . Since this isn't 1962 & even we're not so incompetent , it's going to be a long drawn out campaign. Ditto for Paxtan . I raised the issue of local population combined with elements of the armed forces staging a successful insurgency a la Iraq in the event things went as per the IA plan with Hellfire & he didn't even come up with a counter save to say the IA would treat them like they did combatants .
Let's just say winning the war & winning the peace are two separate issues . The US experience in both Afganistan & Iraq are good illustrations of the point I'm trying to make . Besides neither are we the US nor Pakistan , Afganistan or 2003 vintage Iraq .
The MSC is still work in progress with one division raised , no sight of the second one & since 2018 has become some sort of a Guinea pig to test new IA battlefield doctrines namely the IBGs . Ostensible reasons are the same as always lack of funds & rationalising manpower.
Ofc China'd be well prepared especially after the Russian debacle in Ukraine . Hell that's precisely what I've been arguing ever since this dispute broke out , which is why I anticipate the whole issue will begin after 2028 ( yup that date again ) , mostly around 2030 . Hopefully we will be prepared too. Fingers crossed.
I thought I clearly wrote the WAR on Taiwan would be an existential threat to Xi & his clique in terms of the results . I don't know where did the "Taiwan threat " come from & what's it supposed to mean .
I also don't know whether I lack the necessary powers of articulation in stating my PoV , (which I don't think is the case as everyone else seems to get what I'm writing & I'm not even dropping cryptic hints Hellfire style ) or resident story teller here is a selective reader or on some trip .... I think I'd pause here & not yield to temptation lest I've to see cranky complaints once more .
And we're talking of the same Chinese people who've launched bloody revolts to get rid of the Yuan dynasty or the Taiping rebellion among various other rebellions major & minor which rocked the Qing Empire bringing it to breaking point being the cause of it's demise or the An Lushan rebellion from which the early mediaeval Tang Dynasty never recovered.
It helps to have some cursory knowledge of Chinese history before making such laughably immature & stupid claims especially since it's public information that the budget for internal security far outstrips the defence budget till date in PRC .
The Sino Indian war occurred in 1962 . What we had in 1967 was the Battles of Nathu la & Cho la which the Chinese'd rather forget . The 1965 war was the Indo Pak war .
Since it's clear resident story teller's run out of points , we've entered repetition territory more than some time ago , goal posts are being shifted ( as usual ) & basically the entire debate has boiled down to qibbling apart from the usual conjecture mixed with facts as per SOP of resident storyteller , I've NOT grown used to in spite of all these years ( & frankly even more bored of seeing ) , instead of imitating manchild & becoming a pedant , I'd sign off on the topic as I've said whatever I've had to on the matter .
Thumb rule is, if you are not planning to bombard an area or planning to send your aircraft to that area, there is no point in taking down the AD protecting that. It will be a waste of resources.
China should get hurt if the wage war on us, for that they should have a fear of we targeting their cities and with out bombing capabilities you cannot inject fear on them.
There is no need to send in the Tu-160 to drop bombs on targets, fighters can do that. It's not meant for that anyway.
Following timestamps, no one normal does that. People should keep their antics to themselves.
Stalkers always do their best to justify their antics...
Anyway, I suppose I should feel like a celebrity.
2 MSCs have already been raised using existing units. One of the points of emergency procurements.
17 Corps has already seen an exercise as of Oct 2021 in Arunachal Pradesh, it also has a new aviation brigade. 10000 troops were added to it in April 2021 thereby completing two divisions. They are all in the form of IBGs now.
And 1 Corps now has 2 divisions, 4 Division and 6 Mountain Division. IBGs as well.
Both MSCs are active. We can expect emergency purchases to plug whatever holes they have over the year.
China and rebellion?
Yeah, maybe during the pre-computer era rebellions were common. But today's CCP-controlled China can wipe out half of its population overnight just to keep itself alive.
Stalkers always do their best to justify their antics...
Anyway, I suppose I should feel like a celebrity.
2 MSCs have already been raised using existing units. One of the points of emergency procurements.
17 Corps has already seen an exercise as of Oct 2021 in Arunachal Pradesh, it also has a new aviation brigade. 10000 troops were added to it in April 2021 thereby completing two divisions. They are all in the form of IBGs now.
And 1 Corps now has 2 divisions, 4 Division and 6 Mountain Division. IBGs as well.
Both MSCs are active. We can expect emergency purchases to plug whatever holes they have over the year.
China and rebellion?
Yeah, maybe during the pre-computer era rebellions were common. But today's CCP-controlled China can wipe out half of its population overnight just to keep itself alive.
The Tu-160 can't penetrate that far, hence long range CMs.
To go that far in, even stealth bombers need escorts. Like the B-21 is expected to be escorted by the NGAD. We are not capable of doing that. And the Tu-160 will definitely get shot down.
The point of the Tu-160 is to mass long range fires and threaten certain geographies that fighters cannot reach, like Diego Garcia, ECS/SCS, Persian Gulf and the Red Sea. It's a capability we will need in the 2030s, not this decade.
It can also be seen as the IAF's answer to the IA's IRF plan.
I am not asking to send our bomber on day 1. Let it fire long range missiles at stand of range, take down all the enemy AD and use it for carpet bombing. TU160 can fire missile but cant do carpet bombing, B1 can fire missiles and capable of doing carpet bombing too. Now tell me which aircraft IAF should choose? I will go with B1 because it has an added advantage.