Pakistan T129 Attack helicopter order confirmed
- Thread starter GuardianRED
- Start date
But the point is how they are going to fund it.
Like it or not but despite all the hardship those buggers have always been successful in presenting a much credible threat...
Looks like at least they have better defense planner than india
But the other point can be the case that they have sacrificed all those welfare responsibilities like education, health spending etc on the alters of defense..
Today or tomorrow that nation will face the existential threat not from outside but from the very within due to the very nature of relationships between the state and its people
Like it or not but despite all the hardship those buggers have always been successful in presenting a much credible threat...
Looks like at least they have better defense planner than india
But the other point can be the case that they have sacrificed all those welfare responsibilities like education, health spending etc on the alters of defense..
Today or tomorrow that nation will face the existential threat not from outside but from the very within due to the very nature of relationships between the state and its people
Importing helicopters or defence items don't make for a good army. Pakistan gets funding from Arab countries to import gadgets. But Pakistan has almost no real defence industry. Indian coast guard is as big as Pakistani Navy. Pakistanis don't even have servicing parts for their tanks which they have named as al-khaleed as if it is made in Pakistan!
They are not powerful except for the geography they are present in. Pakistan is supported by oil suppliers and hence they pose a problem. Just like none accuses Saudi Arabia or other Arab countries openly despite several insidious acts, even Pakistan can't be acted against decisively.
turkey is extending a credit line for this sale .... how they can afford it ......is unknown
T129 has an US engine ...........will they permit it ............ any confirmation ?
T129 has an US engine ...........will they permit it ............ any confirmation ?
But the engine sales were blocked. I won't be surprised if they use a bicycle chain to pedal the rotor to get airborne.
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In trying to understand this - This T129 (according to WIKI) uses a an engine built by a JV of RR and Honeywell AND is a derivative of the AgustaA129 , which itself uses a RR engine . Whats stopping TAI from using this every RR engine?
Majority of tech and IPR are of US origin and in order to sell this to Pakistan Turkey will need clearance form USA, given present US turlkey realtions, that is unlikely. Also Majority of system are not made in Turkey they are just re labled there, OEMs are mostly EU countries which are in General pisssed off with Erdogan, Pakistan has hardly enough to to pay off its loans and dues for the next two months, Turkey's bonds are crap, It doesn't have any US forex currently to lend out to any nation let alone Pakistan. And loans are some thing that Pakistan is presently high on, but can definitely do without it.
Which Tech is IPR of US?? like I mention this frame is a derivative of a European frame!! there are always alternatives to existing equipment correct? (an example of the engine) + there is a difference between being pissed off and business as usual
Case and Point
The Italian A129 with Rafael TOPLITE III EO.
IF they can do it - whats stopping the T129?
The Italian A129 with Rafael TOPLITE III EO.
IF they can do it - whats stopping the T129?
Target acquisition are from Rafael Advanced Defense Systems Ltd, partner in EU, Romaero. Also, Raeython is a bak end partner of a lot of radar equipment and software theat goes on to this bird, which is relableled through Romaero (Rayethon->Rafael->Romaero->TAI) . Engineparts through Honey well. Finances are another matter. Business don't thrive on unpayable loans, and presently Pakistan's credit ratings are going from worse to almost on a cliff with a gun on its head while having a drug overdose.
Thus making a point that - though they will be jumping head first on that cliff - IT IS possible for PA to procure such.
How long they can maintain this is another story for sure!
Sad that someone in their country doesn't question such deals and how it is financed ?
Defense supplies happen on upfront payment for each batch where in these birds will be supplied. IF USA and Israel doesn't object, It is possible for them to obtain the same.
Equipment procurement by Italy and Pakistan isn't same when they have Israeli-US systems on board.
I just gave AN EXAMPLE of the Italians testing and modify their frames using difference equipment - Only to present my case to show that PA can have an alternative to present systems on the T129.
Whether these alternatives are equivalent or better/downgrade in performance - only when more info comes along to us -till then only speculations
They can procure it and put helfire on it, or space lasers or they can use simple bows and arrows, but in the existing configuration, Turkey needs some approvals from DC, some from EU and some from Tel Aviv.
US Allies France, Poland Eager to Help Turkey Bypass Pentagon Chopper Engine Ban
Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) was forced to look for a replacement to US and British-made LHTEC T8004A turboshaft engines for a defence order with Pakistan after the Pentagon refused to provide the company with an export license.
Ankara and Islamabad have agreed to look for a replacement for the US and British-made engines which were set to be installed aboard 30 Turkish T129 ATAK multipurpose helicopters as part of a $1.5 billion defence order with Pakistan, Hurriyet has reported, citing defence industry officials.
The two countries signed the chopper deal this summer, with Pakistan settling on the joint Honeywell and Rolls-Royce-made engines to meet performance requirements in high-altitude flight and poor weather conditions common in the Pakistani mountains.
However, in a move which Turkish defence procurement officials described as "purely political," the Pentagon refused to provide Ankara with the engines amid escalating tensions between the two countries in recent months.
The withheld engines were believed to be part of Washington's punishment of Ankara for its refusal to back out of its S-400 air defence system deal with Moscow, as well as tensions over US support for Kurdish militants in northern Syria, the Turkish refusal to support US sanctions against Iran, and other issues, such as Ankara's detention of a US pastor and Washington's protection for an Islamist cleric Ankara believes orchestrated the July 2016 coup attempt.
Now, according to Hurriyet, engine makers in France and Poland have each expressed an interest in replacing the US and UK-built engines with French or Polish-made ones, with Turkish officials said to have received a "positive response" from both. Earlier, a senior Turkish defence official told Russian media that a Chinese engine maker was being considered as well.
One of these countries could win the engine contract pending testing. Pakistan originally requested that the T129 ATAK helicopters' engines be tested in the Himalayan Mountains in poor weather at a height of up to 14,000 feet.
If the tests prove successful and an agreement is reached with one of the countries, TAI hopes to complete the Pakistani defence order of 30 choppers in five years.
Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) was forced to look for a replacement to US and British-made LHTEC T8004A turboshaft engines for a defence order with Pakistan after the Pentagon refused to provide the company with an export license.
Ankara and Islamabad have agreed to look for a replacement for the US and British-made engines which were set to be installed aboard 30 Turkish T129 ATAK multipurpose helicopters as part of a $1.5 billion defence order with Pakistan, Hurriyet has reported, citing defence industry officials.
The two countries signed the chopper deal this summer, with Pakistan settling on the joint Honeywell and Rolls-Royce-made engines to meet performance requirements in high-altitude flight and poor weather conditions common in the Pakistani mountains.
However, in a move which Turkish defence procurement officials described as "purely political," the Pentagon refused to provide Ankara with the engines amid escalating tensions between the two countries in recent months.
The withheld engines were believed to be part of Washington's punishment of Ankara for its refusal to back out of its S-400 air defence system deal with Moscow, as well as tensions over US support for Kurdish militants in northern Syria, the Turkish refusal to support US sanctions against Iran, and other issues, such as Ankara's detention of a US pastor and Washington's protection for an Islamist cleric Ankara believes orchestrated the July 2016 coup attempt.
Now, according to Hurriyet, engine makers in France and Poland have each expressed an interest in replacing the US and UK-built engines with French or Polish-made ones, with Turkish officials said to have received a "positive response" from both. Earlier, a senior Turkish defence official told Russian media that a Chinese engine maker was being considered as well.
One of these countries could win the engine contract pending testing. Pakistan originally requested that the T129 ATAK helicopters' engines be tested in the Himalayan Mountains in poor weather at a height of up to 14,000 feet.
If the tests prove successful and an agreement is reached with one of the countries, TAI hopes to complete the Pakistani defence order of 30 choppers in five years.
Trust me it is not going to be just 6 months a flying rotary wing bird needs to be re -engined, that is going to cost... and cost a lot of money. As the the engine performance parameters and its weight, Center of gravity everything will change and then it has to be certified, this is the very costly and time taking part... and will make these birds un-affordable.
Or they can ditch the trial and certification part. They'll get those birds, quickly... if they do. They have to be fools of the first order.
@GuardianRED :
