Pakistan Armed Forces - News & Discussions

They are going to get them blown up by our SATA batteries. The moment they use these guns against India, they will be breeching the no heavy guns within 30kms of the border agreement with India. We will than be free to hit them deep inside by moving our own heavy guns forward.

The only problem, they can field (right now)
388 155/39 SPHs + 40 203mm SPHs (total 428) comapared to 10 of IA .

They can again field around 200 155mm towed artillery pieces of American origin and around 100 turkish Panter guns atleast , totaling around 300 guns atleast compared to around same numbers (200 Bofors guns and maybe around 100 upgraded M46s) as of today.
 
The forward deployment was an asset for PA till we had Brahmos and other longrange arty/missiles. Now the forward deployment in the backdrop of CSD is a problem for PA. They will not be able to move assets very quickly between theatres as they will be forced to stay within one theatre only by IA long range hits. They have now become stationary in nature. The forward deployment was good when we had the concept of Strike Corps only but now with CSD and gurantteed nuke destruction thru massive retaliation, their forward elements are easy meat for IA. In any future war, what we will have is what British had in Al-Alamien, there will be no defence once these forward assets are destroyed or IA breaks thru them. Their will be complewte rout of PA once we are able to break thru and get behind them and start a pincer. In that famous battle, British had deployed every asset forward and there was no defence till Cairo. Had those defenses collapsed. British would have been completely and comprehensively defeated in Africa. Can PA play that game with us when our Strike Corps will be fully intact and Pivot Corps plus reserve corps holding fort while IBGs go on rampage supported by IAF? After 2001 Op Prakarma, PA moved its assets further up and created cantonments very close to Indian Border. Take the case of the cantonment in Chickens neck. Do you think we will leave them intact to move out of those places? The effect of strong Arty supported by strong air power has been demonstrated in every battle including Al-Alamien and Battle of Longewal. Can PAF rise to the occassion to thwart IAF from supporting the IBGs? There was a post by NS52 about what unfolded in Battle of Longewal and how PA tanks got broken due to lack of train transportation. CAN PA move any of its assets to counter highly mobile IA IBGs with its near non existant infra to support a war?
 
The only problem, they can field (right now)
388 155/39 SPHs + 40 203mm SPHs (total 428) comapared to 10 of IA .

They can again field around 200 155mm towed artillery pieces of American origin and around 100 turkish Panter guns atleast , totaling around 300 guns atleast compared to around same numbers (200 Bofors guns and maybe around 100 upgraded M46s) as of today.
Have you read what is the range of these guns? Please read.
 
How many 39km range Bofors do we have as on date? And which PA arty can out perform them?
Don't know the numbers.
@Milspec Again please cast some light. Give the numbers of Bofors, any upgrade if they are getting. Also how many M46 were upgraded by Soltam. And how many will be now upgraded by OFB.

Turkish Panter Guns they have in service. They have longer 52 barrels.

We only have these long barrels in K9 and ATAGS as of now. And 155/52 Dhanush prototypes of OFB under testing which will be used to get 300 gun order.
 
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Don't know the numbers.
@Milspec Again please cast some light. Give the numbers of Bofors, any upgrade if they are getting. Also how many M46 were upgraded by Soltam. And how many will be now upgraded by OFB.

Turkish Panter Guns they have in service. They have longer 52 barrels.

We only have these long barrels in K9 and ATAGS as of now. And 155/52 Dhanush prototypes of OFB under testing which will be used to get 300 gun order.
we have over 1400 Bofors and all are fighting fit. Some of the guns of PA which you mentioned have even shorter range than our 105mm IFG.
 
we have over 1400 Bofors and all are fighting fit. Some of the guns of PA which you mentioned have even shorter range than our 105mm IFG.
The deal was for only 410 Bofors guns, and less than 200 remain in service today. Around 700 130mm M46 guns, around 100 upgraded M46 guns, around 2000+ Indian Field Gun(105mm).

Rest 122mm guns can be said to be retired now as we stopped making 122mm ammunition some years ago now.
 
The deal was for only 410 Bofors guns, and less than 200 remain in service today. Around 700 130mm M46 guns, around 100 upgraded M46 guns, around 2000+ Indian Field Gun(105mm).

Rest 122mm guns can be said to be retired now as we stopped making 122mm ammunition some years ago now.
I got it wrong as I added one ahead of 400 that I wanted to post. Pls accept my apology. But more Bofors have been made with better equipment. The total number is much higher. Bofors production is not stalled for want of acceptance by IA as the gun is already proven. You will be shocked after a few days to know that some of the guns under acceptance trials have already been supplied to Arty formations. Hum kya kahtay hain aur kya kartay hain usmay bahut antar hota hai.
 
K9 with its longer barrel will obviously have longer range, so will our ATAGS and M777, but they are yet not all here.

We have plenty of artillery to fight Pakistan. China is a different story, but stuff's changing there.

As for SPH, we have dozens of Soviet 2S1s and British Abbots. Although the Vajras will take over in no time.
 
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We have plenty of artillery to fight Pakistan. China is a different story, but stuff's changing there.

As for SPH, we have dozens of Soviet 2S1s and British Abbots. Although the Vajras will take over in no time.
We stopped production of 122mm rounds long back, so in all probability the 2S1s gone into reserves like much of the D30 122mm guns.
 
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I got it wrong as I added one ahead of 400 that I wanted to post. Pls accept my apology. But more Bofors have been made with better equipment. The total number is much higher. Bofors production is not stalled for want of acceptance by IA as the gun is already proven. You will be shocked after a few days to know that some of the guns under acceptance trials have already been supplied to Arty formations. Hum kya kahtay hain aur kya kartay hain usmay bahut antar hota hai.
Terrible State of Indian Artillery

George S. Patton famously said, “I do not have to tell you who won the war. You know, the artillery did.” There is a huge dilemma for the Indian artillery with this sentence. A nation that tries to maintain 3:1 ratio with Pakistan vis-à-vis its conventional firepower is reeling from decades of institutional inaction led obsolescence and some delays due to bizarre project planning and execution. Today as it stand, most of it’s prime artillery force is either decommissioned or in the state of dismay.
Current State
Following is the head to head comparison between towed artillery of India and Pakistan.
1*WxiJgOf8etaJjZ_Cdgasuw.png

India total towed strength on paper stands at 4150 compared to Pakistan’s 3278 which to begin with is a grave issue for a nation trying to maintain 1:3 ratio in conventional firepower against Pakistan. Add to the fact no one has the seen the S23 and D30 guns in action, neither does the Ordinance factory board produce any ammunition in 180mm and 122 mm calibers, that points to the fact these units are either mothballed or out of service. This brings the total strength of Indian towed artillery to 3500 units- almost neck and neck with a potential adversary where we supposedly brandish the term “numerical superiority”.
Heavy Artillery
Pakistan fields couple of dozen of 203mm gun, and POF still manufactures the ammunition as it also possess 203mm Sel Propelled Guns. Whereas Indian heavy guns are out of action. Although this is not big advantage as 155 mm guns can discharge the duties of heavier guns circa WWII.
155mm Towed Artillery
In the modern 155 mm towed howitzer head to head competition, Indian Army falls short of it’s objectives outgunning and outnumbering the opposition.
1*qgw_CXcVoAWQpTKVJOyQ1A.png

India posses a total of 380 155mm guns compared to 394 Guns of Pakistan. This is quite perplexing as India had originally purchased about 410 155 FH77/B guns from Sweden with tech transfer, and only 200 of them survive. This points towards cannibalization of existing guns due to lack of spares which is pure negligence. Today OFB is touting that they are producing Dhanush 155mm guns for the army, a reasonable Explanation is indeed needed for loosing half the fleet of FH77/B over the years, when we haven’t had such terrible luck with the m46. where almost the entire fleet remains intact.
1*zWMzLFuZH60K1wVy-4T6sQ.png

Another reason to worry is the transfer of technology from turkey to Pakistan in building the MKEK Panter, Pakistan is churning out about 30–40 guns every year of this kind, and most likely end up with about 350 units in next couple of year.
Metmorphosis gun has had tube blowouts a couple of time, so most likely it will run for the rest of it’s life as low ring charges to avoid such situations, which will most likely bring down it’s effective range from 39 km to about 25–28. So with the given inventory India does not possess the range or the numerical advantage over it’s Pakistani counterparts.
(On a side note, M46 has been a god-send Russian system for us, much like the Mig 21. It has lived past it’s age and still keeps running like a champ.)
Medium Artillery
When it came to medium artillery, India traditionally maintained heavy superiority against Pakistan with its 130mm and 122 mm cannons. Given Indian Army has decided to pull back all of it’s 122mm guns, Indian medium artillery looks abysmally weak in the comparison to Pakistani medium artillery. India has about 720 M46 130mm medium guns left in service, whereas Pakistan’s 130mm M46 clones and 122 mm variants stand at a staggering 1243 units, almost 500 more medium guns than India.
1*2GpO9PW32B6XqhE5Eq8KqA.png

And this ratio will continue to skew as we eat into long range M46’s and turn them into short range 155mm upgrade. Another aspect t note is Pakistani army’s Type 54 is a 21 Caliber (Length) gun, i.e it’s shorter and highly mobile gun. India on the other hand has chosen not to field any short range, highly mobile medium sized gun which can be used for border escalations.
1*zdjJLEuGclpseQkyeGs8eA.png

Light Artillery
The only area where India posses an edge is in the light artillery with is indigenous 105mm work horses IFG and LFG units. India posses about 2400 field guns compared to 1643 guns comprising of 105 mm, 85mm and quarter pounders that Pakistan fields.
1*su0xfWxBqEHuoU8KN0weuw.png

1*PDEKYBIi9GxgFA6uKTUHTg.png

One of the major advantages of the Indian Field Guns is the barrel length of 37 Caliber which is longer than all of the comparable 105mm Pakistani light Artillery, which gives it a significant range advantage. Also the Light Field Gun is highly mobile and offsets the portability of the 85mm guns of the adversary. This is one area where Indian army truly outguns the opposition in both range, effectiveness and inventory.
Future State
Indian Army seems to have made up it’s mind on consolidating 155 mm in different length-calibers as it mainstay in towed artillery. A 1600 towed gun contract seems to point at the same. Given Pakistans 155mm and Medium gun combined strength will stand at around 1900 guns in next 3–5 years, if Indian army want’s to pitch a 2:1 ratio it will need a combined strength of atleast 4000 guns.
Gap Analysis
As the 155mm inventory strength today stands at a measly 380 units, Indian establishment will still have a shortfall of about 2000 guns if it wants to get to a 1:2 ratio vis-a-vis Pakistan. With consolidation large and medium artillery Indian Army will need substantial efforts in converting most of it’s m46 fleet with a proven barrel solution for the Beas/Metamorphosis Program which can add another 700 odd 155 mm modified guns to the inventory. the 1600 towed artillery system will need a revamp or even an introduction of another system along side the one chosen to get similar advantages as we have gained in local production of IFG and LFG guns. Given that India doesn’t struggle in the Light Artillery, upgrade programs on 105mm LGF, along with catapult and kalyani Garuda ultralight guns can turn the Light Artillery into more efficient unit.
Conclusion
Indian Artillery is in extremely poor state, and the red tape with acquisition of artillery system has put the lifes of our soldiers to risk. Given that half of the medium artillery is out of commission, and prime front line FH77/B fleet has been cannibalized to half it’s size, it is of utmost importance to fast track both the development and the acquisition Processes for the towed artillery. Success story of the 105mm light Artillery has already set the precedence for Indian Army to follow local production of artillery system to be replicated in the 155mm category.

Written by @Milspec
 
SPH in service:

Pak- 60 M110 + 150 M109A2 + 115 M109A5 + 280 M109L(out of which 65 delivered last year) #3 post
India- 10 k-9 + 10 more next month

The deal was for only 410 Bofors guns, and less than 200 remain in service today. Around 700 130mm M46 guns, around 100 upgraded M46 guns, around 2000+ Indian Field Gun(105mm).

Rest 122mm guns can be said to be retired now as we stopped making 122mm ammunition some years ago now.

Only public data tells 200 bofors are remain in service as of 2009. I think we stopped producing 130mm ammo also, so 180+ 300 ordered sharang. 1700+700-669= total around 1700 105mm guns. @R!cK Do you present status of bofors or 105mm guns?

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I've not heard of the 122mm being retired. We should have tons of ammo for those even if production has ended.

As long as they are stored properly, you can keep them indefinitely.
 
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I've not heard of the 122mm being retired. We should have tons of ammo for those even if production has ended.

As long as they are stored properly, you can keep them indefinitely.
Usually the shelf life of artillery shells is 8-10 years, given proper storage. And for this time period it will need zero servicing and will remain almost equally effective.

And its atleast like 6 years now that the OFB stopped producing it. We can always import it though, but even then tell me in the last decade how many of us have seen even a single pic of 2S1 in any army exercise or parade or even in exibitions. In all probability the 2S1 and the D30 are now retired and placed in some kind of reserves.

Even the Abbot SPG was bought decades back, and a few of them were striped down too, its canon is the base of our Indian Field Gun and Light Field Gun. Coming into 2019, I don't think more than a dozen would be actually left now serviceable.
 
SPH in service:

Pak- 60 M110 + 150 M109A2 + 115 M109A5 + 280 M109L(out of which 65 delivered last year) #3 post
India- 10 k-9 + 10 more next month



Only public data tells 200 bofors are remain in service as of 2009. I think we stopped producing 130mm ammo also, so 180+ 300 ordered sharang. 1700+700-669= total around 1700 105mm guns. @R!cK Do you present status of bofors or 105mm guns?

View attachment 4019

No clue honestly. But 105mm guns still remain serviceable in huge numbers, sadly not the same case for Bofors. Criminal negligence in not ensuring proper supply chain for Bofors even after getting ToT transferred, last known figure is a serviceability level well below 50%. Surprising OFB is busy with Dhanush and not at all interested in upgrading Bofors. This is when they have successfully developed an upgrade program for M46 which is an even more vintage design that required extensive modification. Hopefully they will realise the potential of upgrading Bofors to Dhanush standard and raise the count to atleast 300 units.

Usually the shelf life of artillery shells is 8-10 years, given proper storage. And for this time period it will need zero servicing and will remain almost equally effective.

And its atleast like 6 years now that the OFB stopped producing it. We can always import it though, but even then tell me in the last decade how many of us have seen even a single pic of 2S1 in any army exercise or parade or even in exibitions. In all probability the 2S1 and the D30 are now retired and placed in some kind of reserves.

Even the Abbot SPG was bought decades back, and a few of them were striped down too, its canon is the base of our Indian Field Gun and Light Field Gun. Coming into 2019, I don't think more than a dozen would be actually left now serviceable.

Not sure about D30, but last I heard all vintage era SPGs are in Reserved condition now and not in active service. Bhim howitzers were to replace them in early 2000s which failed to materialize unfortunately. Best and most likely course of action will be an additional order of atleast 300 units of K9 with increased localization, placed possibly by 2020-22 period. But it will be tight considering MGS will be next in line for being prioritised, there exists no 155mm MGS in IA inventory as of now while our western neighbours are expected to introduce the same MGS already deployed by our Eastern neighbour.

Good Day!
 
Usually the shelf life of artillery shells is 8-10 years, given proper storage. And for this time period it will need zero servicing and will remain almost equally effective.

And its atleast like 6 years now that the OFB stopped producing it. We can always import it though, but even then tell me in the last decade how many of us have seen even a single pic of 2S1 in any army exercise or parade or even in exibitions. In all probability the 2S1 and the D30 are now retired and placed in some kind of reserves.

Even the Abbot SPG was bought decades back, and a few of them were striped down too, its canon is the base of our Indian Field Gun and Light Field Gun. Coming into 2019, I don't think more than a dozen would be actually left now serviceable.

Shelf life of ammunition isn't just a few years though. Only missiles have shelf life because of propellant. Ammo can sit for decades and still be usable.
 
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