PAK-FA / Sukhoi Su-57 - Updates and Discussions

[Bhartiya Naagrik Sainik]

Unlike AMCA, the F-35 has a bulky airframe built around 1 massive F-135 engine which outputs more power than older gen jets. The downside ofc was a relatively large IR signature.

LM was forced to make several design compromises to come up with a common base design for the 'joint' strike fighter program. The engine thermal mgmt system is another problem area.

The ADVENT/AETP prog was meant to solve these issues. However, this new engine won't be available for the foreseeable future.

Given the situation, I'd say US F-35 pilots were asking for trouble by flying at low altitudes over Iran (or the threat assessment provided by US intel on Iranian AD was not up to the mark.)

They were supposedly using MQ-9s for close-in recon, weren't they?

Correct, there were compromises bcoz it was exportable Joint SF.

F-35, Su-75 or stealthy MWF, if we want 1 engine stealth jet with more fuel, IWB weapons then the engine has to be powerful to have acceptable ATWR, hence bigger diameter & IRS.
Things to reduce IRS was done like shown in points - PAO cooling, more HXs, transpiration cooling, etc. Even AMCA is said to have 'Vapor Compression Cooling'. But these things wont work with AB in any jet bcoz that's raw power & external, hence it becomes important to push dry thrust as far as possible.

AETP upgrade was offered but only ECU was decided to lower MLU cost.

Like i said, AMCA & other jets could face same challenges in future wars bcoz anybody would try to -
- fly using terrain masking.
- hide mobile passive IR SAMs by terrain camouflage to avoid recon by drones, spy-sats.

 

[batman]

There's diff. b/w IIT AIR-1 & others too so don't worry.

what are you trying to say?

Ask more explanation on point not clear, like in school, college, office training. I try to use bulleted points, pics, vids, diagrams, calculations, tables, etc.

More like it's more difficult to understand the main point of your posts compared to others, it seems like you just post all random related information about a particular topic you find instead of coming to a proper conclusion with relevant points unlike an essay writing competition.

So in this case, Speedster mentioned thermal signature management, so i elaborated on its methods & limits of IR.

I see.

 

[Speedster1]

Correct, there were compromises bcoz it was exportable Joint SF.

Nope. The need for a STOVL variant within the same overall dimensions + parts commonality requirement was the reason behind it. Cost was likely a factor too considering that even the competing X-32 came with a single engine.

Things to reduce IRS was done like shown in points - PAO cooling, more HXs, transpiration cooling, etc. Even AMCA is said to have 'Vapor Compression Cooling'. But these things wont work with AB in any jet bcoz that's raw power & external, hence it becomes important to push dry thrust as far as possible.

The point is Iranian AD was still able to detect and target the F-35. There was shrapnel damage to the airframe too. Unless the Iranians used AAA, this means the F-35s much hyped EW/IRCM barely did its job.

 

[Bhartiya Naagrik Sainik]

Nope. The need for a STOVL variant within the same overall dimensions + parts commonality requirement was the reason behind it. Cost was likely a factor too considering that even the competing X-32 came with a single engine.

- Yes ofcourse STOVL too. Flat nozzle is said to be avoided due to that. But fluid dynamics support round nozzles better.
- Parts commonality is must to bring down cost if multiple variants.
- But ATWR of A & C models also less.
- Now a 1 engine 6gen can also be attempted, approximation of ATWR can be made, so it'll be even more powerful engine but perhaps with better IR suppression hopefully, like more flat nozzle as seen in ad for NGAD.

The point is Iranian AD was still able to detect and target the F-35. There was shrapnel damage to the airframe too. Unless the Iranians used AAA, this means the F-35s much hyped EW/IRCM barely did its job.

- See this is why i mentioned AMCA & other jets also. Every maker company/country curses others as hype & praises self's products.
- We have our clarification Vs Pak/foreign claims in Op Sindoor. Similarly US says F-35 detected the SR-SAM as an ambush & maneuvered using AB to evade SAM. Otherwise ideally F-35 should have been downed with pilot KIA or ejected & captured.
- In my limited understanding, all short range SAM IR sensors will pick friction heat in MWIR or LWIR bands.
- Apart from IR suppression methods, as counter-measures, only Su-57 has DIRCM, rest all have just flares.
- And once AB is lit to evade missile then it adds to air-frame heat.
- 6gen aims to have DEW-CIWS.
- Active IRS panels not demonstrated on A/c yet.
- It would be interesting actually to ask LM if their F-22, F-35 MLU will have DIRCM. If not then why not.

 

[Speedster1]

- Yes ofcourse STOVL too. Flat nozzle is said to be avoided due to that. But fluid dynamics support round nozzles better.
- Parts commonality is must to bring down cost if multiple variants.
- But ATWR of A & C models also less.
- Now a 1 engine 6gen can also be attempted, approximation of ATWR can be made, so it'll be even more powerful engine but perhaps with better IR suppression hopefully, like more flat nozzle as seen in ad for NGAD.


- See this is why i mentioned AMCA & other jets also. Every maker company/country curses others as hype & praises self's products.
- We have our clarification Vs Pak/foreign claims in Op Sindoor. Similarly US says F-35 detected the SR-SAM as an ambush & maneuvered using AB to evade SAM. Otherwise ideally F-35 should have been downed with pilot KIA or ejected & captured.
- In my limited understanding, all short range SAM IR sensors will pick friction heat in MWIR or LWIR bands.
- Apart from IR suppression methods, as counter-measures, only Su-57 has DIRCM, rest all have just flares.
- And once AB is lit to evade missile then it adds to air-frame heat.
- 6gen aims to have DEW-CIWS.
- Active IRS panels not demonstrated on A/c yet.
- It would be interesting actually to ask LM if their F-22, F-35 MLU will have DIRCM. If not then why not.

The Iranians achieved mission kill, even if the jet itself made it back to base. I think that's certainly a creditable achievement against what is billed as the world's best stealth jet.

It'd be interesting to know if the F-35 in question returned to service or was a write off. Ofc, the US would never acknowledge it, considering the lengths it went to hide the loss of a PAF F-16 against the IAF.

I think the USAF would do well to revise F-35 tactics in light of its Iran experience. Currently, the jet has towed RF decoys and is soon getting Britecloud expendable decoys. No word on DIRCM yet but maybe Block 4 would have it.

 

[Bhartiya Naagrik Sainik]

The Iranians achieved mission kill, even if the jet itself made it back to base. I think that's certainly a creditable achievement against what is billed as the world's best stealth jet.

It'd be interesting to know if the F-35 in question returned to service or was a write off. Ofc, the US would never acknowledge it, considering the lengths it went to hide the loss of a PAF F-16 against the IAF.

I think the USAF would do well to revise F-35 tactics in light of its Iran experience. Currently, the jet has towed RF decoys and is soon getting Britecloud expendable decoys. No word on DIRCM yet but maybe Block 4 would have it.

- Certainly it's a good achievement & experience for Iran. But how would other nations making 5gen jet would rank their jet's capabilities?

- Pilot's survival is most important, like we got our pilots Nachiketa & Abhinandan back.

- Be it Indo-Pak war, Russia-Ukraine war, US-Iran war, Israel-Iran war, etc, no nation will acknowledge losses till it can hide them unless caught on camera bcoz it becomes intel for enemy & world. The citizens of home nation themselves wont ever know or controlled by military or politicians to prevent leaks.

- Decoys can jam or attract the AAM as the AAM has HoJ (Home on Jam) capability.

- DIRCM uses laser to disorient EO/IR seeker, but not RF seekers, hence DEW. Jen Latka, program Vice President of F135 said the ECU is for more electricity, cooling, some weapon, probably DEW. They've tested the external DEW pods decade back & could be ready with the stealthy conformal turret.






- If Russians can enhance their engine generators then Su-57 DIRCM can also be replaced with DEW.

 

[Hyperactive ADD]

The point is Iranian AD was still able to detect and target the F-35. There was shrapnel damage to the airframe too. Unless the Iranians used AAA, this means the F-35s much hyped EW/IRCM barely did its job.

It has been confirmed by the Telegram group that the system that shot down the F-35 was the Tor-M2, deployed to Iran shortly before the start of the war.

The Tor-M2 engagement radar operates in the Ku-band (12.0–18.0 GHz, according to Russian naming convention),
while the so-called fifth-generation fighter's optimized RCS range is the X-band (8.0–12.0 GHz),

which obviously led to the F-35 being shot down in Iran.

 

[Speedster1]

- Be it Indo-Pak war, Russia-Ukraine war, US-Iran war, Israel-Iran war, etc, no nation will acknowledge losses till it can hide them unless caught on camera bcoz it becomes intel for enemy & world. The citizens of home nation themselves wont ever know or controlled by military or politicians to prevent leaks.

If word got about the loss of an F-35 in combat, the export prospects of the F-35 would have been badly hit. The US MIC is paranoid about its reputation, so much so that they got the USAF/govt to certify that all of Pak's F-16s were intact post Balakot.

They've tested the external DEW pods decade back & could be ready with the stealthy conformal turret

Yes, the USAF is likely to skip DIRCM and go straight to DEW on future blocks of F-35. Plus they have a history of working on airborne DEW going back to the Boeing YAL-1 system for BMD.

 

[Speedster1]

It has been confirmed by the Telegram group that the system that shot down the F-35 was the Tor-M2, deployed to Iran shortly before the start of the war.
View attachment 52672
The Tor-M2 engagement radar operates in the Ku-band (12.0–18.0 GHz, according to Russian naming convention),
while the so-called fifth-generation fighter's optimized RCS range is the X-band (8.0–12.0 GHz),

which obviously led to the F-35 being shot down in Iran.

Even if true, the US would have bombed the crap out of the crash site to prevent the Iranians from accessing the debris. They've done so to much less important Blackhawks and Hercs that had crashed during the course of operations.

 

[screambowl]

LMAo what? no the AMCA mk2 wont be able to handle the 117 lol. It would need redesigning the entire aircraft.

AMCA Mk1 itself is redesigned multiple times that's why more than one prototype. The planners themselves are unaware which engine to install. Because there is none.

 

[screambowl]

The Chinese use the al 31FM2 and used for atleast 4+ years. From what I know the initial versions of the ws-10 were trash so the al-31 has been reliably used for atleast a full decade for j-20 testing and production. The rd-33 very similar(slightly bigger) than the ge-414. Let's not forget that ge-414 is not a stealth engine either.

Their development plan was different because they do not have access to western turbine technology. Multiple projects lined up, so they tested their 4th gen engine on 5th gen airframe. But they have a decent 4th gen engine now and concentrated their funds on 5th gen engine. India on other hand has access to western technology if not 100% then atleast 60-70%. But since there was no plan how to go ahead as per the priority list hence you have to import Ge414 and other hand talk with France. It's a chaos now.

Now for all purposes it is good enough especially the sea wasp Rd-33mk. Both the AMCA and TEDBF can be built on the rd-33mk. Apart from the f-22's f-119 there's not a single engine that is truly fifth gen or aircraft that is fifth gen.
Also we are not US, China or Russia. We are stuck at 2000-3000$ gdp per capita. Our baseline capabilities don't allow us to make a fifth gen engine. War is fought on economics we don't have the money of technical capabilities right now. Even Iran is a richer economy than us so is Turkey and SoKo.

This is true. With the economy what India is, the government can only afford a development of 4th gen engine to lift LCAmk2 or development of 5th gen engine from scratch. Both can't go along. Private players are also not technically sound enough.

The MiG‑35 actually has the strongest thrust‑to‑weight ratio among all active‑duty fighter jets, and the J‑35’s prototype, the FC‑31, also uses the RD‑33, but the production version is an inferior copy (the WS‑13).

Would RD33 fit on AMCA or LCA MK2, I think both would need redesigned fuselage.

 

[lmaoxd]

Their development plan was different because they do not have access to western turbine technology. Multiple projects lined up, so they tested their 4th gen engine on 5th gen airframe. But they have a decent 4th gen engine now and concentrated their funds on 5th gen engine. India on other hand has access to western technology if not 100% then atleast 60-70%. But since there was no plan how to go ahead as per the priority list hence you have to import Ge414 and other hand talk with France. It's a chaos now.



This is true. With the economy what India is, the government can only afford a development of 4th gen engine to lift LCAmk2 or development of 5th gen engine from scratch. Both can't go along. Private players are also not technically sound enough.


Would RD33 fit on AMCA or LCA MK2, I think both would need redesigned fuselage.

yes lol you need to redesign the aircraft fuselage and intakes. you cant just drop in another very different engine that easily.

 

[Lolwa]

Their development plan was different because they do not have access to western turbine technology.

They literally had access to CFM 56 which is the baseline tech for building up all modern turbo fans from from the m-88 to ge-404,414 and f100 series. China has had far more access to Western tech than us for far longer.

Would RD33 fit on AMCA or LCA MK2, I think both would need redesigned fuselage.

It can be done. For the LCA MK2 the rd-93ma would be required but we don't produce it here.
The AMCA can use the rd-33 mk since we are already assembling them here.
Rd -33mk has 4.2m length
F-414 has 3.9 m length
Rd-33mk has 41 inch diameter
F414 has 35 inch diameter so the rd-33mk could be fit in but most likely fuel will be affected as well inlet redesign will be required for ideal airflow but the redesign wouldn't take more than 6 months-1 year considering how early we are in the stage and only RCS of the air model is ongoing for the AMCA. We could have a flying prototype by the end of this year.
An AMCA-E can be made for export customers (considering how much issues we have for export regarding American engines). And it can be procured in the interim with avionics and flight control can be perfected uptil f-414 hits production in India.

 

[Bhartiya Naagrik Sainik]

On Su-57 thread, all of us are getting dragged towards other products. Atleast we should compare something to Su-57.
Old replies de-linked from Su-57 can be shifted to appropriate thread.
New replies de-linked from Su-57 should be quoted/replied in appropriate thread.

 

[Saaho]

Would RD33 fit on AMCA or LCA MK2, I think both would need redesigned fuselage.

Let me put it in this way, the MOMENT GE realizes that India is adapting its planes (LCA MK1A/MK2) for RD-33MK/MA. It will RUN like crazy and deliver whatever engines India needs. This is a common tactic used to keep vendors in check. Engage two.

BTW, I have said before too. This way we can export LCA to those who are sanctioned by USA.

I think we should get the damn LCA working with RD33-MA/MK. We make RD33-MK locally using Russian parts. We should just ramp that up and buy more parts from Russia.

Also test AMCA using RD-33MA/MK. I know it is not powerful enough to test entire flight envelop but as a stopgap it is not bad. Remember China used AL31 to develop J20? We can do the same. Meanwhile have TWO different JVs with Saffaran and Rolls Royce to develop two different fifth gen engines.

Also BAN GE for 20 years for playing this shitty game. In EVERY domain in India.

 

[Lolwa]

Let me put it in this way, the MOMENT GE realizes that India is adapting its planes (LCA MK1A/MK2) for RD-33MK/MA. It will RUN like crazy and deliver whatever engines India needs. This is a common tactic used to keep vendors in check. Engage two.

BTW, I have said before too. This way we can export LCA to those who are sanctioned by USA.

I think we should get the damn LCA working with RD33-MA/MK. We make RD33-MK locally using Russian parts. We should just ramp that up and buy more parts from Russia.

Also test AMCA using RD-33MA/MK. I know it is not powerful enough to test entire flight envelop but as a stopgap it is not bad. Remember China used AL31 to develop J20? We can do the same. Meanwhile have TWO different JVs with Saffaran and Rolls Royce to develop two different fifth gen engines.

Also BAN GE for 20 years for playing this shitty game. In EVERY domain in India.

The only issue is CAATSA. The only issue is CAATSA ruining everything. Might as well just cut off the Americans completely and buy Su-57, s-500. The Israelis(so are the French) are anyway annoyed by the Americans so we can get David Sling (which is the paac-4 SME for Patriot).
This delusional dream of Western engines has to be dropped. Get the rd-33 series, al-41 and al51.
Reverse engine the left over Ge-404. No point in wasting time.

Remember China used AL31 to develop J20?

J-35 used rd-33 for its prototype

 

[lmaoxd]

The only issue is CAATSA. The only issue is CAATSA ruining everything. Might as well just cut off the Americans completely and buy Su-57, s-500. The Israelis(so are the French) are anyway annoyed by the Americans so we can get David Sling (which is the paac-4 SME for Patriot).
This delusional dream of Western engines has to be dropped. Get the rd-33 series, al-41 and al51.
Reverse engine the left over Ge-404. No point in wasting time.

J-35 used rd-33 for its prototype

CAATSA wont only affect military purchases mate, it will affect economic things as well. Choosing russia over the west for economic reasons is among the dumbest things you could ever do. We are stuck btw a rock and hard place and the only way to get out of it is to make our own engine.

 

[Saaho]

The only issue is CAATSA. The only issue is CAATSA ruining everything. Might as well just cut off the Americans completely and buy Su-57, s-500. The Israelis(so are the French) are anyway annoyed by the Americans so we can get David Sling (which is the paac-4 SME for Patriot).
This delusional dream of Western engines has to be dropped. Get the rd-33 series, al-41 and al51.
Reverse engine the left over Ge-404. No point in wasting time.

We are anyways buying parts of RD33MK right now from Russia. So it does not matter.

 

[screambowl]

Let me put it in this way, the MOMENT GE realizes that India is adapting its planes (LCA MK1A/MK2) for RD-33MK/MA. It will RUN like crazy and deliver whatever engines India needs. This is a common tactic used to keep vendors in check. Engage two.

BTW, I have said before too. This way we can export LCA to those who are sanctioned by USA.

I think we should get the damn LCA working with RD33-MA/MK. We make RD33-MK locally using Russian parts. We should just ramp that up and buy more parts from Russia.

Also test AMCA using RD-33MA/MK. I know it is not powerful enough to test entire flight envelop but as a stopgap it is not bad. Remember China used AL31 to develop J20? We can do the same. Meanwhile have TWO different JVs with Saffaran and Rolls Royce to develop two different fifth gen engines.

Also BAN GE for 20 years for playing this shitty game. In EVERY domain in India.

In any case, be it the RD33 or GE414 or M88, India has to be ready with adequate numbers of fighter aircrafts before next elections, situation in Pakistan is going out of control and there could be a major war. Unfortunately no 5gen fighter but there is a time to get good numbers on LCA MK1, Rafales and Super Sukhoi upgrades.

GE will take time and other alternates are only RD33 and M88 for LCA.

AMCA has good numbers of prototype to test different engines on it. Test both RD33 and M88

Like you said , I would also say Instead of some MMRCA 2 and MMRCA 3 I think the deal should be on turbine technology to procure and develop jet engines in India. With this India can absorb whatever TOT takes place.

20-30% India has to develop own technologies, that no one will give.

 

[screambowl]

F414 has 35 inch diameter so the rd-33mk could be fit in but most likely fuel will be affected as well inlet redesign will be required for ideal airflow but the redesign wouldn't take more than 6 months-1 year considering how early we are in the stage and only RCS of the air model is ongoing for the AMCA.

AMCA will have 5 prototypes, most probably they know this so may be they will test it with different engines. The only issue with the RD33 is the low thrust. Of course you can test it but then super cruise capability needs to be considered.