PAK-FA / Sukhoi Su-57 - Updates and Discussions

[Bhartiya Naagrik Sainik]

Depends on what does the IAF want ? Su-57 is your replacement for MKI . The very fact we're upgrading ~ 88 / 270 odd MKIs which in turn is expected to be completed in 8+8 yrs from 2025 is a dead giveaway.

There's no way we'd be upgrading a 4th Gen FA in the 2040s meaning the rest of the MKIs will obviously start retiring from 2040 onwards beginning with the ones first inducted into the IAF from 2005 onwards.

One can't rule out peripheral modifications to some of the MKIs mfgd in India as opposed to the deep upgrades / Super Sukhoi configuration for the 88 nos .

If this reading of the situation is true do we really require a J-36 size 6th Gen FA or do we settle for something like the FCAS .

The INs input will also carry weight as they'd be expected to field at least 4 AC in the 2040-50 time frame.

Ofcourse Su-57 better than all Su-3X hence India could be interested in MII Su-57 MKI when HAL has not delivered the 1st Super Su-30MKI. The official word will come out via MoD soon on Su-57.

But MoD already said that 6gen project has to start, be it the engine part or airframe, with sketches, CADs, calculations, whatever the 1st steps.
IDK who's expecting J-36 sized 6gen TEDBF.

If we opt for the FCAS JV , GCAP is out. However if we do opt for FCAS , DA will follow the same playbook as they did for the Rafales meaning the Naval version gets developed first & the AF version derived from it later .

This means the IN would have to be the Project Manager for the FCAS from our side.

Given the mutual love between the IAF & IN on Naval Aviation , I don't think the IAF would be amenable to such an arrangement.

If we want to see the project through we require a strong MoD who'd be in position to put IAF in its place putting our national interest over their partisan interests. The present placeholder of a Defence Minister hardly inspires that kind of confidence .

Then there's the issue of synchronisation between the French PANG & our IAC -3&4 . Le Francais may also seek to inveigle us into their PANG project . Are we prepared for such deep strategic commitments ?

Lots of such questions need to be answered before such a decision is taken. A lot will obviously depend on how the forthcoming negotiations on Rafale pan out - both technical ( meaning the degree of freedom we enjoy to make modifications on our own on the Rafale platform ) & commercial. Then of course there's the JV for the 120 KN TF.

My gut feeling is the GoI will not commit till it has achieved what it wants from these projects before they even begin considering the FCAS JV.

Yes all these points are true, but w.r.t. Su-57 i would say here that IMO it has potential to become TD of 6gen.

Remaining things are Naval 6gen specific-
- 6gen has to start someday on paper/CAD. Sooner the better.
- I don't think current FCAS model satisfies our need of bigger strike weapons & French may not agree to modify its airframe.
- JV needs 2 engines - 1 for medium class & 1 for heavy class.
- Su-57 can become the 6gen TD, while France considers modifying FCAS, or we decide to go for DIY airframe.
- We need a CATOBAR-AC for a heavy class 6gen jet.
- IN+IAF design will save huge money & time.
- IAF, IN are just operators, not designers. Being manager is different from being Engineer. it is joint reponsibility of NSA+IAF+IN+MoD+ADA to feel need of future platforms as per global tech advancements to avoid future arm-twisting, sanctions, not as per wish of operators sleeping like "Kumbhakaran". For example IN indicated 5gen TEDBF only in 2025 Aero-India, 15 years after AMCA initiated.
IAF started crying about delivery of LCA Mk1A, later they'll cry about AMCA, then they'll cry about 6gen.
So it is better to start crying about everything from today itself.

 

[Bhartiya Naagrik Sainik]

That tail stinger extends well beyond the engine nozzles and horizontal tail surfaces which means specular radar reflections. Perhaps a shorter 'beaver tail' as on the MiG-35 would've been a better choice.

Imo, rear facing radar is redundant on a jet with dorsal maws + dircm.

The round stinger tail is on some prototype, otherwise production models would have flatter beaver tail.

It is tough to design perfect airframe with lowest RCS & IRS both.
Earlier MAWS were made in DAS config for spherical coverage. Optical MAWS can detect hot objects & DIRCM can counter IR seeker.
But now rear looking antennas are part of RF spherical coverage, as threat can approach from anywhere & rear targetting possible while retreating.
RF antenna looks farther than MAWS.

From certain angles like side view, the IRS is reduced as engine plume is shielded.
The center tail obstructs other side engine plume, rather than presenting double IRS. F-22 also has vertical separator housing tail hook.

 

[Bhartiya Naagrik Sainik]

Earlier Russian estimate put F-22's overall RCS at 0.3m^2 and Su-57's average RCS to be between 0.3m^2 - 0.5m^2. So, right from its beginning, it was designed to match the Raptor. But that was for basic metal body, not accounting for RAM/RAS. Also, as @babablacksheep said, F-22's RCS is combination of shape and RAM while Su-57 is more like F-35 where its "Carbon NanoTube(CNT)" based composite skin gives its far more broadband stealth than Raptor. No amount of simulation will tell you real RCS of Su-57.

Even the Russians won't share the same level for RAS with us. But never mind as we have already developed our own CNT composite-fibre skin, which we may use on our Su-57MKI variant.

All-in-all, as I said earlier, all naysayers of Su-57's Indian acquisition and those who downplay its stealth characteristics, are in for a rude surprise.

'Nuff said.

️️

Ok, let's hope that Su-57 MKI with DRDO's RAM & RAS will do wonders

But 2 things -

> We need to talk practically about complete product, that's what flies in battle, not unpainted primer jet.




> We have to consider the RCS quoted by maker about their own COMPLETE product, not others. otherwise fingering won't ever stop & discussion won't proceed in any direction.

 

[Speedster1]

The round stinger tail is on some prototype, otherwise production models would have flatter beaver tail.

It is tough to design perfect airframe with lowest RCS & IRS both.
Earlier MAWS were made in DAS config for spherical coverage. Optical MAWS can detect hot objects & DIRCM can counter IR seeker.
But now rear looking antennas are part of RF spherical coverage, as threat can approach from anywhere & rear targetting possible while retreating.
RF antenna looks farther than MAWS.

From certain angles like side view, the IRS is reduced as engine plume is shielded.
The center tail obstructs other side engine plume, rather than presenting double IRS. F-22 also has vertical separator housing tail hook.

The latest model powered by the definitive AL-51F engines with flat nozzles still retains the tail stinger. It's unlikely to be truncated because of the need to provide sufficient FoV for the rear radar.

The F-22 has 2D nozzles and the tail sting is shaped like a wedge. The Felon has 3D TVC with significant spacing between the nozzles. It's tail sting might well act as a radar reflector.

BTW, the long rumoured rear ward firing R-73RDM2 variant doesn't exist. So rear facing radar can only buy a few extra seconds of threat warning time. The Russians probably use it for redundancy as their EOTS/DAS tech is not on par with the West.

 

[_Anonymous_]

6gen has to start someday on paper/CAD. Sooner the better.

The first part of the entire exercise is to ascertain the needs of the respective services as to what their perception of the 6th Gen FA ought to be .

This is typically a study program commissioned by the MoD to take all factors including the developments undertaken by other countries not limited to our enemies in this field .

Then there's the issue of the technologies to be realised , the time taken & most importantly the cost . Typically Plan B is also part of these studies which may recommend consultancy in specific areas or JVs in specific technologies.

However the option of getting into a FULL JV isn't normally part of these recommendations from what I understand. That's a political decision after clearing all the technical & financial aspects including consultation with all the stake holders like the development agencies , the various laboratories , the end users , scientific advisors to the RM & GoI apart from the bureaucracy .

- I don't think current FCAS model satisfies our need of bigger strike weapons & French may not agree to modify its airframe.

What do you think the CCA's & UCAV's are for then ? This is system of system we're talking about.

- JV needs 2 engines - 1 for medium class & 1 for heavy class.

I don't think the 6th Gen program will be split into Heavy & Medium classes. At the most we'd have an AF & a Naval version.

- Su-57 can become the 6gen TD, while France considers modifying FCAS, or we decide to go for DIY airframe.

Where's the money to support two 6th Gen FA programs ? Up until recently we didn't have money to procure the entire complement of 114 Rafales which has been on for 2 decades now .

Then all of a sudden , Operation Sindoor happened & more than a few dhotis were soiled or on the verge of being soiled.

Result - the purse strings were opened . This is typical GoI behaviour . Nothing's changed since the debacle in 1962 nor will anything significant change till the next debacle.

- We need a CATOBAR-AC for a heavy class 6gen jet.
- IN+IAF design will save huge money & time.

I'm of the opinion ACs are destined to be relics in the mid term future given the advances being made in air propulsion technologies.

It's not inconceivable to have a FA have a ferry range of 15000-20000 kms if not more in the next 3-4 decades travelling at a high Mach numbers.

Hence what ever we're developing now will take 2 decades & will have to serve for another 2-3 decades after that taking into consideration the advances being made in Propulsion Systems or at least that's the way it ought to be .

Heavy class FAs are ruled out for AC based operations.

- IAF, IN are just operators, not designers. Being manager is different from being Engineer. it is joint reponsibility of NSA+IAF+IN+MoD+ADA to feel need of future platforms as per global tech advancements to avoid future arm-twisting, sanctions, not as per wish of operators sleeping like "Kumbhakaran"

Let me acquaint you with the AFMC especially the AFLCMC of the USAF . Most professional AFs have such departments in house especially advanced countries.

Google Search

It's because IAF doesn't have such specialist departments that they are always fixated on nothing but the best as far as indigenous technologies go without giving time for maturation of technology & OTOH are prepared to compromise on imports.

Neither has the armed forces with the exception of the IN had the foresight to implement such moves in house nor has the political class & the bureaucracy demanded such implementation for the latter are clueless about defence matters & the former just lacking in foresight.

 

[babablacksheep]

So USA/USAF/LM tell in interviews & documentaries that F-22's frontal RCS is like bee or 0.00015 sqm & F-35 like a golf ball or 0.0015 sqm

Overall, on exterior F-22 is better, while on interior F-35 is better.
But domestic ADF vs exported JSF, the former is supposed to be more stealthy. Nobody wants to hand over better exterior/stealthy jet & make other nations better.
Hence frontal RCS of F-35 is quoted 0.0015 sqm, 10x more than F-22.

Now,



Both General Bogdan, former F-35 program director, and General Hostage, former ACC commander, have said the F-35 is more stealthy than the F-22. General Bogdan did so in Senate testimony.



"Hostage caused a stir in late spring when, in press interviews, he said the F-35 would be stealthier than the F-22, its larger USAF stablemate. Conventional wisdom had pegged the F-22, with its angled, vectored-thrust engines, as a stealthier machine than the F-35. Hostage also said the F-35 would be unbeatable when employed in numbers, which is why the full buy of aircraft is “so critical.”



“I would say that General Hostage … is accurate in his statement about the simple stealthiness of the F-35 [with regard] to other airplanes,” Bogdan said in the interview. The statement was accurate for radar cross section, as measured in decibels, and range of detectability, he said, and he scoffed at the notion that anyone can tell how stealthy an aircraft is just by looking at it."

These figures are for a particular band, range, boresight angle probably.

====


Senior Airman Joshua Moon, 192nd Fighter Wing stated the following in a USAF news item about maintaining the F-22’s stealthy skin during Red Flag:

We knew they were going to fly the hell out of the jets because this is a large-scale exercise… When the pilot flies he’ll bank real hard sometimes, which can tear or rip the radar absorbent material. If there are a lot of damages, the aircraft is easier to detect, so we try to keep those damages to a minimum to where you can’t see it on radar.

…

When other people have problems with a jet, it’s going to affect LO… Right now, something is wrong with a light panel on that jet. Since maintenance needs to get into that panel, we have to pick the radar absorbent material off and clean all the fasteners out so they can fix the light. Once the light is fixed we will re-bind the coating and material again to make it 100 percent ready.

The F-35 on the other hand was designed with new LO skin treatments in mind that significantly reduce the time it takes to keep it in tip-top shape.
…

At Red Flag, they’re testing our jets by hitting them with radar over the range, so that’s a lot of pressure for us – it’s really important that those jets come back undetected.”

So like you said, these setups don't have RAS, RAM, hence only basic physics & geometry alone doesn't matter,

Geometry alone matters significantly, materials alone also matters significantly.

Materials are an important add on over Geometric stealth.

 

[Bhartiya Naagrik Sainik]

The latest model powered by the definitive AL-51F engines with flat nozzles still retains the tail stinger. It's unlikely to be truncated because of the need to provide sufficient FoV for the rear radar.

It looks like only 1 model is out, that too for testing, that too with 1 flat TVC engine
It looks with a beaver tail, not round stinger.

The F-22 has 2D nozzles and the tail sting is shaped like a wedge. The Felon has 3D TVC with significant spacing between the nozzles. It's tail sting might well act as a radar reflector.

That's why i said it is tough to make perfect model for low RCS & IRS.
F-22 has vertical separator but the fuselage corners holding stab hinges & rear antennas, extend back well to shield the exhaust & reflection from vertical separator.
However in Su-57, the rear tail would be treated with RAS+RAM, whatever the front radome gets, and then pray to god.

BTW, the long rumoured rear ward firing R-73RDM2 variant doesn't exist. So rear facing radar can only buy a few extra seconds of threat warning time. The Russians probably use it for redundancy as their EOTS/DAS tech is not on par with the West.

Su-57, F-22 & F-35 have antennas wherever they can - wings, rudders, stabs, belly, spine.
After firing 1st salvo, the jets need to make U-turn or L-turn if not crossing border & then also AAMs can be fired with side or rear radar, also during tail chase.
Everybody is or will be testing LOAL (Lock On After Launch) AAMs which can make U-turns after launch.

 

[Speedster1]

It looks like only 1 model is out, that too for testing, that too with 1 flat TVC engine
It looks with a beaver tail, not round stinger.

A beaver tail is more like a paddle. The one on Su-57 is like a (faceted) spindle which is a Sukhoi trademark.

We don't yet know if AL-51F has completed RuAF user trials. As of now it's just brochure-ware.

Everybody is or will be testing LOAL (Lock On After Launch) AAMs which can make U-turns after launch

The US MDA has used tracking data from F-35 DAS to shoot down a BM target in trials. However, a2a is a whole different ball game.

The loss of energy during the 180 degree flip immediately post launch and the lack of a clear line of sight to the rear for the pilot (HMS/D head tracker) make rearward firing impractical and extremely risky.

 

[Bhartiya Naagrik Sainik]

The first part of the entire exercise is to ascertain the needs of the respective services as to what their perception of the 6th Gen FA ought to be .
This is typically a study program commissioned by the MoD to take all factors including the developments undertaken by other countries not limited to our enemies in this field .
Then there's the issue of the technologies to be realised , the time taken & most importantly the cost . Typically Plan B is also part of these studies which may recommend consultancy in specific areas or JVs in specific technologies.
However the option of getting into a FULL JV isn't normally part of these recommendations from what I understand. That's a political decision after clearing all the technical & financial aspects including consultation with all the stake holders like the development agencies , the various laboratories , the end users , scientific advisors to the RM & GoI apart from the bureaucracy .

Whatever procedures you & others can think of & write in longest thesis possible, it all needs to BEGIN at the earliest.
Otherwise, Tri-services will keep crying periodically for late work & 1 day suddenly we'll loose Ladakh, Arunachal Pradesh.
So best of luck to Tri-services to ascertain their perception, needs, study progrrams, procedures, etc.

What do you think the CCA's & UCAV's are for then ? This is system of system we're talking about.

Currently we don't see any UCAV able to carry bigger AGMs, CrMs, AShMs, ARMs like Brahmos-NG, Rudram, etc. So MUMT won't eliminate IWBs of manned jet. We'll need many types of UAVs with dedicated & multi-role.

I don't think the 6th Gen program will be split into Heavy & Medium classes. At the most we'd have an AF & a Naval version.

JV engine #1 for AMCA Mk2 & JV engine #2 for 6gen which will be heavy class only.

Where's the money to support two 6th Gen FA programs ? Up until recently we didn't have money to procure the entire complement of 114 Rafales which has been on for 2 decades now .
Then all of a sudden , Operation Sindoor happened & more than a few dhotis were soiled or on the verge of being soiled.
Result - the purse strings were opened . This is typical GoI behaviour . Nothing's changed since the debacle in 1962 nor will anything significant change till the next debacle.

IMO only 1 heavy class 6gen program is needed for IN+IAF like Rafalae & F-35. The TD can be Su-57 or DIY.

I'm of the opinion ACs are destined to be relics in the mid term future given the advances being made in air propulsion technologies.
It's not inconceivable to have a FA have a ferry range of 15000-20000 kms if not more in the next 3-4 decades travelling at a high Mach numbers.
Hence what ever we're developing now will take 2 decades & will have to serve for another 2-3 decades after that taking into consideration the advances being made in Propulsion Systems or at least that's the way it ought to be .
Heavy class FAs are ruled out for AC based operations.

Many people think that Indian peninsula doesn't need ACs when we don't need to travel & invade other countries. We just need to guard our shores & stop naval invasion. So i've not concluded my opinion yet.
BUT If new CATOBAR-AC will be sanctioned then atleast 5.5gen TEDBF can be inducted by 2040, IMO.

IDK what you think of heavy class, you need to mention your specs. For now just imagine a Naval Su-57 to begin with, not J-36.

Let me acquaint you with the AFMC especially the AFLCMC of the USAF . Most professional AFs have such departments in house especially advanced countries.

Google Search

It's because IAF doesn't have such specialist departments that they are always fixated on nothing but the best as far as indigenous technologies go without giving time for maturation of technology & OTOH are prepared to compromise on imports.

Neither has the armed forces with the exception of the IN had the foresight to implement such moves in house nor has the political class & the bureaucracy demanded such implementation for the latter are clueless about defence matters & the former just lacking in foresight.

Every professional knows about life cycle managent, it is everywhere.
Leaving past behind, our PPP need to work fast. We need to catch global tech, not re-invent wheel. The maturation time needs to reduce, some obsolete things may have to be skipped. ISRO doing well. DRDO doing well with things like missiles, etc, but ADA & HAL lagging.

Beyond this, citizens are not interested in blame games - IAF Vs GoI/MoD Vs ADA Vs HAL. Wars begin suddenly.
Things have to be result oriented & time bound.

 

[Rajput Lion]

The Su-57 deal is going to happen in 2 different phases as I have been saying here for the last two years(and drawing flak from some of my friends here). The first one is for direct procurement of 40-80 jets from Russia(yes, the final number is still under consideration), while the real deal would be domestic manufacturing of the 2-seat variant(even the first 40 odd flyaway jets could be 2-seat!) made in Nashik plant by HAL of around 100-140 jets.

The 2-seat jets would work as lead command & control jet for all our autonomous strike fleet along with S-70 Okhotnik-Bs. Once, the above combo goes online, then finally we'll have a lethal combo capable of breaking Chinese A2/AD bubble and strike deep in China.

So, in short, Su-57 will finally give us parity against Chinese PLA-AF which we unfortunately lost in 2017 with J-20s induction.

 

[Bhartiya Naagrik Sainik]

Now,
Both General Bogdan, former F-35 program director, and General Hostage, former ACC commander, have said the F-35 is more stealthy than the F-22. General Bogdan did so in Senate testimony.
"Hostage caused a stir in late spring when, in press interviews, he said the F-35 would be stealthier than the F-22, its larger USAF stablemate. Conventional wisdom had pegged the F-22, with its angled, vectored-thrust engines, as a stealthier machine than the F-35. Hostage also said the F-35 would be unbeatable when employed in numbers, which is why the full buy of aircraft is “so critical.”
“I would say that General Hostage … is accurate in his statement about the simple stealthiness of the F-35 [with regard] to other airplanes,” Bogdan said in the interview. The statement was accurate for radar cross section, as measured in decibels, and range of detectability, he said, and he scoffed at the notion that anyone can tell how stealthy an aircraft is just by looking at it."

OOOOOOMMMMMGGGGG! The same speeh of Mr. Hostage is taking hostage of people's mind again & again.
If true then what can i do if someone wants hand over best things to foreign nations rather than keep for self?
Retire the costlier inferior F-22.
It is probably biggest scandal in modern aviation.
OR 1 thing is possible that US F-35s are better than F-22, not the exported ones. Still then F-22 would not make sense anymore.

On a light note, bigger the population, bigger are chances of contradictory speeches, slip of tounges, manipulated speeches to pitch business deals.
What POTUS will say, generals will obey Just make the DEAL happen.

====


Senior Airman Joshua Moon, 192nd Fighter Wing stated the following in a USAF news item about maintaining the F-22’s stealthy skin during Red Flag:

We knew they were going to fly the hell out of the jets because this is a large-scale exercise… When the pilot flies he’ll bank real hard sometimes, which can tear or rip the radar absorbent material. If there are a lot of damages, the aircraft is easier to detect, so we try to keep those damages to a minimum to where you can’t see it on radar.

…

When other people have problems with a jet, it’s going to affect LO… Right now, something is wrong with a light panel on that jet. Since maintenance needs to get into that panel, we have to pick the radar absorbent material off and clean all the fasteners out so they can fix the light. Once the light is fixed we will re-bind the coating and material again to make it 100 percent ready.

The F-35 on the other hand was designed with new LO skin treatments in mind that significantly reduce the time it takes to keep it in tip-top shape.
…

At Red Flag, they’re testing our jets by hitting them with radar over the range, so that’s a lot of pressure for us – it’s really important that those jets come back undetected.”

That's an improvement indeed in F-35 airframe which is good for maintenance procedures & is more cost effective, that's expected from a newer jet.
But RCS return of a complete product is another thing.

Geometry alone matters significantly, materials alone also matters significantly.
Materials are an important add on over Geometric stealth.

Everything's contribution matter but only geometric jet or only RAM painted obsolete jet is not flown in battle.
A complete product is used.
If you spot just a primer painted jet in battle or a 4gen jet dipped in RAM, let us know immediately.

 

[Bhartiya Naagrik Sainik]

A beaver tail is more like a paddle. The one on Su-57 is like a (faceted) spindle which is a Sukhoi trademark.

At least 1 prototype has conical tail & rest flatter tails.



If a rear radar of certain size is desired then how to fit it in a paddle like tail? It'll widen the engine separation like in B-2.

We don't yet know if AL-51F has completed RuAF user trials. As of now it's just brochure-ware.

Yeah, some day it'll finish everything & get in service. It is out of brochure & into the Su-57's body finally.
So what's your point & expectation from Su-57?

The US MDA has used tracking data from F-35 DAS to shoot down a BM target in trials. However, a2a is a whole different ball game.
The loss of energy during the 180 degree flip immediately post launch and the lack of a clear line of sight to the rear for the pilot (HMS/D head tracker) make rearward firing impractical and extremely risky.

Progressive advancement won't need pilot to strain neck & shooulder & look 180 degree behind.
The aim of spherical coverage of RF+EO sensors is to trac target anywhere & have firing solution any time.
AAMs can take 50+G turns.
In fact, F-35 program from beginning has advertised this bcoz F-35 doesn't have TWR & TVC like F-22, so AAMs should do the turn & burn.
Ultimately it is case of life & death. So best of luck to pilots.

 

[babablacksheep]

OOOOOOMMMMMGGGGG! The same speeh of Mr. Hostage is taking hostage of people's mind again & again.
If true then what can i do if someone wants hand over best things to foreign nations rather than keep for self?
Retire the costlier inferior F-22.
It is probably biggest scandal in modern aviation.
OR 1 thing is possible that US F-35s are better than F-22, not the exported ones. Still then F-22 would not make sense anymore.

Again with your one sided assumptions, just because it doesn't make sense in your mind doesn't mean others will think exactly as you.

F22 is still a stealth jet, still relevant against plethora of enemies and Missions ,already in service, with its operational infra and maintainence chain already present, crews trained.

F35A even with enhanced production rate still costs 80-100+ million dollars just for the aircraft itself in initial procurement costs per plane.
&
**The U.S. Air Force is significantly reducing its F-35A Lightning II fighter jet procurement for fiscal year 2026, dropping the request from 48 to 24 aircraft, a 50% decrease. This reduction is driven by budget constraints, the need to modernize existing jets, and delays in crucial Block 4 software/hardware upgrades**.

**The U.S. Air Force has delayed the retirement of its F-16 Fighting Falcon fleet, with many aircraft now expected to serve into the 2040s rather than being phased out in the mid-2020s**

On a light note, bigger the population, bigger are chances of contradictory speeches, slip of tounges, manipulated speeches to pitch business deals.
What POTUS will say, generals will obey Just make the DEAL happen.

On a lighter note, stop projecting your mind made scenario as reality.



You have very narrow minded certainty way of thinking.

But RCS return of a complete product is another thing.

Says who? US general? F35 program director?
No its your words, result of your assumptions again.



, im leaving this conversation, not a productive discussion facing your constant attempts to enforce your assumptions as reality.

 

[Bhartiya Naagrik Sainik]

The Su-57 deal is going to happen in 2 different phases as I have been saying here for the last two years(and drawing flak from some of my friends here). The first one is for direct procurement of 40-80 jets from Russia(yes, the final number is still under consideration), while the real deal would be domestic manufacturing of the 2-seat variant(even the first 40 odd flyaway jets could be 2-seat!) made in Nashik plant by HAL of around 100-140 jets.

The 2-seat jets would work as lead command & control jet for all our autonomous strike fleet along with S-70 Okhotnik-Bs. Once, the above combo goes online, then finally we'll have a lethal combo capable of breaking Chinese A2/AD bubble and strike deep in China.

So, in short, Su-57 will finally give us parity against Chinese PLA-AF which we unfortunately lost in 2017 with J-20s induction.

So are we going to import S-70 UCAV also?
Suppose we restore parity with J-20, J-35 with our Su-57 MKIs & UCAVs, it'll still take few years for few squads, say 2030.
What if China attacks us before that?
What if China attacks in 2035-40 with J-36, J-50 & its at least 5 types of UCAVs?

 

[Speedster1]

Yeah, some day it'll finish everything & get in service. It is out of brochure & into the Su-57's body finally.
So what's your point & expectation from Su-57?

I was referring to RuAF flight trials/state acceptance trials, not mfgr trials by Sukhoi.

I'd hate for this to be a re-run of the IAFs MiG-29 acquisition of the 1980s, a half baked product which was just entering service with the Soviet AF back then.

Progressive advancement won't need pilot to strain neck & shooulder & look 180 degree behind.

My read is that the rear facing radar on Su-57 is more of a RF maws than a missile guidance/fire control radar. The antenna is apparently too small to function in the latter mode.

In fact, F-35 program from beginning has advertised this bcoz F-35 doesn't have TWR & TVC like F-22, so AAMs should do the turn & burn.
Ultimately it is case of life & death. So best of luck to pilots.

Not the same as 180 degree turns though.

 

[Bhartiya Naagrik Sainik]

Again with your one sided assumptions, just because it doesn't make sense in your mind doesn't mean others will think exactly as you.

On a lighter note, stop projecting your mind made scenario as reality.

No its your words, result of your assumptions again.
, im leaving this conversation, not a productive discussion facing your constant attempts to enforce your assumptions as reality.

Everybody have their own assumptions, based on their profile & can keep their opinions. No issues.
I understand that USA is upset with India rejecting F-35 & considering Su-57. But Indians are not oblidged to believe American generals, admirals, chiefs, etc.

F22 is still a stealth jet, still relevant against plethora of enemies and Missions ,already in service, with its operational infra and maintainence chain already present, crews trained.
F35A even with enhanced production rate still costs 80-100+ million dollars just for the aircraft itself in initial procurement costs per plane.
**The U.S. Air Force is significantly reducing its F-35A Lightning II fighter jet procurement for fiscal year 2026, dropping the request from 48 to 24 aircraft, a 50% decrease. This reduction is driven by budget constraints, the need to modernize existing jets, and delays in crucial Block 4 software/hardware upgrades**.

Everybody knows that both jets are being upgraded actually.
But,
1st people criticize F-22 stealth inferior to F-35 & costlier than F-35, but can't retire the inferior F-22, so Americans are stuck with such contradictions, what can Indians do about it?

**The U.S. Air Force has delayed the retirement of its F-16 Fighting Falcon fleet, with many aircraft now expected to serve into the 2040s rather than being phased out in the mid-2020s**

USA can do that bcoz -
- No nation except China is fielding 5gen fighters in big numbers.
- USA is geographically gifted nation, flanked by oceans & inferior nations.
- US$ is dominating global economy.
- F-22 & F-35 can do SEAD/DEAD & then F-15, F-16, F-18 can do the brooming, mopping.

Says who? US general? F35 program director?

Nobody has to say that ADF should work like ADF & JSF should work like JSF & domestic capability has to be superior than exported ones.

You have very narrow minded certainty way of thinking.

Thats your ASSUMPTION

 

[Shan]

 

[Bhartiya Naagrik Sainik]

I was referring to RuAF flight trials/state acceptance trials, not mfgr trials by Sukhoi.

Ok, but what're your expectations from it? Is it good or bad? You wan't it in IAF or not? Or either ways you'are fine?
I'm happy that it is progressing & i'm fine either ways if it joins IAF or not. But it should not go to any of our enemy's hands.

My read is that the rear facing radar on Su-57 is more of a RF maws than a missile guidance/fire control radar. The antenna is apparently too small to function in the latter mode.

True sensor fusion need RF+EO sensors. And if 1 sensor can do multiple functions then it is very good.
The rear radar don't need to have range equal to that of front radar.
AESA radars don't use all the TRMs to search, track, lock, but different beams do different functions simultaneously.

Not the same as 180 degree turns though

It has been already tested.
If it can take 50+Gs then it can do 180xN turns.

 

[Harpy1]

Russian and there never ending propaganda & disinformation....... If it had been such a stealthy beast as claimed, I assure you Russia would have churning it out in hundreds a year & russians would not have lost a million man in Ukraine. Russian military knows about what a tin can it is & also knows there are willingly desperate bakras around the world ready to take this crap.

God I hope this is Not True ...It's just Fourth generation fighter FFS... Sometimes I worry we have absolute bunch of amateurs running the air force they seem decades behind Pakistani Air chief planners...God sakes stick to Rafale get french to help get Amca off the ground with french Safren engines
Beg them for Entry Into Sixth generation programme

 

[South block]

God I hope this is Not True ...It's just Fourth generation fighter FFS... Sometimes I worry we have absolute bunch of amateurs running the air force they seem decades behind Pakistani Air chief planners...God sakes stick to Rafale get french to help get Amca off the ground with french Safren engines
Beg them for Entry Into Sixth generation programme

Project delaying Import Bahadur beggars can't be choosers...... sad but true.