PAK-FA / Sukhoi Su-57 - Updates and Discussions

[Speedster1]

. But I think IAF would choose the safer option of composite materials and RAM coatings rather than Canted tails. EWP should be pursued too, maybe if Russians in future develop something for Su-35S, then maybe we could also join the bandwagon

Incoming for future variants. We have developed Nano metamaterials based coating, which shall significantly reduce its loaded RCS. Not Silent Eagle like but still quite decent(Boeing claimed F-35 like frontal RCS for SE, lol).

Look at what Chinese have done with J-15T. It has got slanted Radome like that of stealth fighters. All of the above is excellent idea. But I think IAF would choose the safer option of composite materials and RAM coatings rather than Canted tails. EWP should be pursued too, maybe if Russians in future develop something for Su-35S, then maybe we could also join the bandwagon

The space between the engine nacelles is deep enough to fit a conformal weapons bay for A2A or small strike weapons.

 

[Speedster1]

Incoming for future variants. We have developed Nano metamaterials based coating, which shall significantly reduce its loaded RCS. Not Silent Eagle like but still quite decent(Boeing claimed F-35 like frontal RCS for SE, lol).

Look at what Chinese have done with J-15T. It has got slanted Radome like that of stealth fighters. All of the above is excellent idea. But I think IAF would choose the safer option of composite materials and RAM coatings rather than Canted tails. EWP should be pursued too, maybe if Russians in future develop something for Su-35S, then maybe we could also join the bandwagon

Wouldn't Virupaksha's swashplate repositioner allow its antenna array to be angled upward in stowed position? That should cut head-on RCS by quite a bit.

 

[Bhartiya Naagrik Sainik]

Based on the RAM/RAP and canopy coating tech developed for AMCA, how feasible would a Silent Eagle avatar of the MKI UPG be?

Enclosed weapons pods, chined FSS radome should be doable. Canted tail fins, probably too risky.

Su-57 is not regarded as true 5gen bcoz-
- Su-57 is the flatenned, chiselled SE avtar of Su-3X
- Su-57 is the "super sukhoi" upgrade.

Unfortunately the Su-30MKI upgrade is talking so long that its total cost may backfire in coming years.
But such platforms can be used -
- with higher stand-off weapons like Brahmos, Rudram, Astr-3 SFDR, etc.
- to control UAVs.
- as jammer like J-16D, E/A-18G.

 

[Rajput Lion]

Wouldn't Virupaksha's swashplate repositioner allow its antenna array to be angled upward in stowed position? That should cut head-on RCS by quite a bit.

Even current BARS is on a repositioner(as is its derivative IRBIS) Thing is, that upward position won't be permanent as MKI would look for wide area scan with tilting its radar left and right along with both up and down movement. So having an FSS radome would be even better option(like Rafale).

 

[Speedster1]

Su-57 is not regarded as true 5gen bcoz-
- Su-57 is the flatenned, chiselled SE avtar of Su-3X
- Su-57 is the "super sukhoi" upgrade.

The reported use of RAM panels suggests that RCS reduction is a key part of MKI UPG. It will keep the jet relevant into the 2040s, just as the 70s era Jag continues to be a frontline fighter for the IAF even today.

Mods like chined radome may sound exotic but they have already been implemented on Su-34 (aka 'Platypus' nose) and conformal SLAR underbelly pods like Sapsan have been available for years.

So flight envelope and airframe compatibility is proven.





I'm merely suggesting an extension/conversion of these tech to other use cases like internal weapons. carriage.

Infact, the wing root section could also be modified for semi recessed BVRAAM carriage, imo. Drop launch of course.

 

[calutronking]

The reported use of RAM panels suggests that RCS reduction is a key part of MKI UPG. It will keep the jet relevant into the 2040s, just as the 70s era Jag continues to be a frontline fighter for the IAF even today.

Mods like chined radome may sound exotic but they have already been implemented on Su-34 (aka 'Platypus' nose) and conformal SLAR underbelly pods like Sapsan have been available for years.

So flight envelope and airframe compatibility is proven.

View attachment 49883



I'm merely suggesting an extension/conversion of these tech to other use cases like internal weapons. carriage.

Infact, the wing root section could also be modified for semi recessed BVRAAM carriage, imo. Drop launch of course.

Any structural or aerodynamic changes would have be guaranteed for flightworthiness after a program of certification? Who will do that? HAL? lmfao

 

[Speedster1]

Any structural or aerodynamic changes would have be guaranteed for flightworthiness after a program of certification? Who will do that? HAL? lmfao

Russian oems will be involved in the MKI UPG certification process for things like FCS. They will only be too happy to increase the scope to structural mods, if the IAF is interested.

Besides, HAL carried out mods for Brahmos integration on its own with extensive CFD simulation support from pvt companies like Zeus Numerix. No reason, they couldn't do so for UPG.

 

[Bhartiya Naagrik Sainik]

The reported use of RAM panels suggests that RCS reduction is a key part of MKI UPG. It will keep the jet relevant into the 2040s, just as the 70s era Jag continues to be a frontline fighter for the IAF even today.

Mods like chined radome may sound exotic but they have already been implemented on Su-34 (aka 'Platypus' nose) and conformal SLAR underbelly pods like Sapsan have been available for years.

So flight envelope and airframe compatibility is proven.

View attachment 49883



I'm merely suggesting an extension/conversion of these tech to other use cases like internal weapons. carriage.

Infact, the wing root section could also be modified for semi recessed BVRAAM carriage, imo. Drop launch of course.

This SU-30MKK2 with wedge extension to hold down Kupol M400 recce pod is interesting,


But we need to think little more.
Lots of things can be done to any existing jet, like F-15-EX, F-15-SE, F-16 block 80, Su-35-S, etc, but -

- Time & money are fixed & running out.

- "too many eggs in the basket" means too many projects & tasks for HAL alone w/o PPP. HAL makes everything, is overwhelmed, not doing timely "super sukhoi" upgrade, the 1st fully upgraded jet is yet to be seen. We've seen wingtip jammers but where're MAWS-DAS, new cockpit, etc?

- AFAIK, the Russians rejected some of our mods stating it'll affect aerodynamics, RCS, etc, will need FCS & EW source code modification also. it'll take lot of time, money & impact overhaul tasks also.

- There's always a limit beyond which it is not fully cost effective or technically feasible. Then it'll become a new jet altogether. So it's possible but not feasible. That's why a clean-sheet design is needed & a gen leap is said to have occured bcoz of older airframe MLU limits.

- All Su-3X sold globally to India, China, Malaysia, Indonesia, Algeria, etc need MLU like MAWS, LWR, jammers, cockpit, etc.
Su-35-S is the limit of that MLU which is cost effective if done timely.
Su-30MKM got MAWS, but we couldn't deliver it so far.
Beyond that MLU limit, the Su-57 is the next intermediate leap.




IDK why Russians made parts of the airframe like a 4gen like round engine bays, no S-duct (said to have RF blocker), canopy rail, front IFRP, round IRST, etc. And bcoz of these mistakes Su-57 is not true 5gen jet.

- The intakes of Su-3X are straight & biggest source of RCS & IRS. Now you'll say to install RF blocker. Then i'll say it'll be heavy, costly, take time for DRDO to R&D, need adjustment to FCS code, etc.


- We've to look at time, cost of delivering IAF 2 squads of Super Su-30MKIs Vs 2 squads of Su-57 MKIs. But Su-57 definitely better than Su-35-S & upgraded Su-30MKI.

- If Russia allows modification of Su-57 airframe then it can become precursor to our 6gen TD.

 

[Speedster1]

This SU-30MKK2 with wedge extension to hold down Kupol M400 recce pod is interesting,
View attachment 49886

But we need to think little more.
Lots of things can be done to any existing jet, like F-15-EX, F-15-SE, F-16 block 80, Su-35-S, etc, but -

- Time & money are fixed & running out.

- "too many eggs in the basket" means too many projects & tasks for HAL alone w/o PPP. HAL makes everything, is overwhelmed, not doing timely "super sukhoi" upgrade, the 1st fully upgraded jet is yet to be seen. We've seen wingtip jammers but where're MAWS-DAS, new cockpit, etc?

- AFAIK, the Russians rejected some of our mods stating it'll affect aerodynamics, RCS, etc, will need FCS & EW source code modification also. it'll take lot of time, money & impact overhaul tasks also.

- There's always a limit beyond which it is not fully cost effective or technically feasible. Then it'll become a new jet altogether. So it's possible but not feasible. That's why a clean-sheet design is needed & a gen leap is said to have occured bcoz of older airframe MLU limits.

- All Su-3X sold globally to India, China, Malaysia, Indonesia, Algeria, etc need MLU like MAWS, LWR, jammers, cockpit, etc.
Su-35-S is the limit of that MLU which is cost effective if done timely.
Su-30MKM got MAWS, but we couldn't deliver it so far.
Beyond that MLU limit, the Su-57 is the next intermediate leap.

View attachment 49885
View attachment 49887

IDK why Russians made parts of the airframe like a 4gen like round engine bays, no S-duct (said to have RF blocker), canopy rail, front IFRP, round IRST, etc. And bcoz of these mistakes Su-57 is not true 5gen jet.

- The intakes of Su-3X are straight & biggest source of RCS & IRS. Now you'll say to install RF blocker. Then i'll say it'll be heavy, costly, take time for DRDO to R&D, need adjustment to FCS code, etc.
View attachment 49889

- We've to look at time, cost of delivering IAF 2 squads of Super Su-30MKIs Vs 2 squads of Su-57 MKIs. But Su-57 definitely better than Su-35-S & upgraded Su-30MKI.

- If Russia allows modification of Su-57 airframe then it can become precursor to our 6gen TD.

You can't expect the Russians to agree to any SE level mods for MKI because that'd directly affect Su-57 sales prospects in India.

But I agree conformal weapons pods may be a little too fancy for the IAFs taste. No other AF has implemented them till date either. So maybe there are aerodynamic penalties.

As regards MAWS, the IAF had experimented with airframe mounted and pod based configs for DARE/Elisra DC MAWS years ago.

Afaik, the IAF preferred IIR MAWS because of their relatively low false alarm rates vs UV MAWS used by the MKM and Chinese J-11/16s. But there has been no news since then.

Coverage issues, perhaps?

 

[Rajput Lion]

You can't expect the Russians to agree to any SE level mods for MKI because that'd directly affect Su-57 sales prospects in India.

It's not the Russians but IAF itself.

But I agree conformal weapons pods may be a little too fancy for the IAFs taste. No other AF has implemented them till date either. So maybe there are aerodynamic penalties.

Americans are testing it with Super Hornets.

As regards MAWS, the IAF had experimented with airframe mounted and pod based configs for DARE/Elisra DC MAWS years ago.

Confirmed for UPG. mod.

Afaik, the IAF preferred IIR MAWS because of their relatively low false alarm rates vs UV MAWS used by the MKM and Chinese J-11/16s. But there has been no news since then.

Coverage issues, perhaps?

PS: Those who think that Su-57 is not true 5th gen, let just first few units reach India and let TACDE have a look at it. Both IAF & GOI would be astonished by its "all-aspect" VLO characteristics. Wait n watch

 

[_Anonymous_]

This SU-30MKK2 with wedge extension to hold down Kupol M400 recce pod is interesting,
View attachment 49886

But we need to think little more.
Lots of things can be done to any existing jet, like F-15-EX, F-15-SE, F-16 block 80, Su-35-S, etc, but -

- Time & money are fixed & running out.

- "too many eggs in the basket" means too many projects & tasks for HAL alone w/o PPP. HAL makes everything, is overwhelmed, not doing timely "super sukhoi" upgrade, the 1st fully upgraded jet is yet to be seen. We've seen wingtip jammers but where're MAWS-DAS, new cockpit, etc?

- AFAIK, the Russians rejected some of our mods stating it'll affect aerodynamics, RCS, etc, will need FCS & EW source code modification also. it'll take lot of time, money & impact overhaul tasks also.

- There's always a limit beyond which it is not fully cost effective or technically feasible. Then it'll become a new jet altogether. So it's possible but not feasible. That's why a clean-sheet design is needed & a gen leap is said to have occured bcoz of older airframe MLU limits.

- All Su-3X sold globally to India, China, Malaysia, Indonesia, Algeria, etc need MLU like MAWS, LWR, jammers, cockpit, etc.
Su-35-S is the limit of that MLU which is cost effective if done timely.
Su-30MKM got MAWS, but we couldn't deliver it so far.
Beyond that MLU limit, the Su-57 is the next intermediate leap.

View attachment 49885
View attachment 49887

IDK why Russians made parts of the airframe like a 4gen like round engine bays, no S-duct (said to have RF blocker), canopy rail, front IFRP, round IRST, etc. And bcoz of these mistakes Su-57 is not true 5gen jet.

- The intakes of Su-3X are straight & biggest source of RCS & IRS. Now you'll say to install RF blocker. Then i'll say it'll be heavy, costly, take time for DRDO to R&D, need adjustment to FCS code, etc.
View attachment 49889

- We've to look at time, cost of delivering IAF 2 squads of Super Su-30MKIs Vs 2 squads of Su-57 MKIs. But Su-57 definitely better than Su-35-S & upgraded Su-30MKI.

- If Russia allows modification of Su-57 airframe then it can become precursor to our 6gen TD.

There's is no 6th Gen AHCA if GoI buys the Su-57. That's how it should be or at least that's going by the information in the public domain which seems inclined towards MII

That's the replacement for the MKI . Initially it'd complement the MKI & if & when it comes in full strength it'd replace it .

Assuming the negotiations & agreement happens before 2030 . You're looking at induction of somewhere between 5-6 squadrons by 2040 . Possibly a Mk-2 as well .

OTOH if we go in for 2-3 squadrons only vide imports & cap it then & there , then this could well serve as a template for a J-36 analogue for us to develop as a 6th Gen FA.

Otherwise the option of a JV for FCAS has just presented itself . Whatever be the case , India's in demand be it by the countries developing the GCAP or France or Russia. When it rains it pours. We've a problem of plenty.

 

[Bhartiya Naagrik Sainik]

You can't expect the Russians to agree to any SE level mods for MKI because that'd directly affect Su-57 sales prospects in India.

But I agree conformal weapons pods may be a little too fancy for the IAFs taste. No other AF has implemented them till date either. So maybe there are aerodynamic penalties.

That's what i'm also saying that MLU has limits beyond which it is possible but not feasible technically, financially, politically & chronologically.

As regards MAWS, the IAF had experimented with airframe mounted and pod based configs for DARE/Elisra DC MAWS years ago.
Afaik, the IAF preferred IIR MAWS because of their relatively low false alarm rates vs UV MAWS used by the MKM and Chinese J-11/16s. But there has been no news since then.

Coverage issues, perhaps?

- That MAWS pod is among the worst defence product i've ever seen, with hardpoint wastage & blind spots.




- Another was MAWS pylon which could have been implemented.



- The airframe mounted option, as per media, Russia said it'll impact aerodynamics, overhauling, etc. May be Russia discouraged us so that we can buy their Su-35-S or Su-57.



- Either ways, the same 6-axis positions of DAS-MAWS are seen in F-22, F-35, Su-35, MiG-35, Su-57, J-20, etc so we could have done that. IDK what positions DRDO has finalized.



- AFAIK, UV helps to remove clutter compared to traditional IR sensor. IIR (Imaging IR) may have improved further. But good MAWS are seen to have multi band sensors.



Su-57 DAS-MAWS have been upgraded -

 

[Bhartiya Naagrik Sainik]

PS: Those who think that Su-57 is not true 5th gen, let just first few units reach India and let TACDE have a look at it. Both IAF & GOI would be astonished by its "all-aspect" VLO characteristics. Wait n watch

If it can reduce its RCS further significantly, every Su-57 supporter will be vey happy.

 

[babablacksheep]

If it can reduce its RCS further significantly, every Su-57 supporter will be vey happy.

View attachment 49900

The widely circulated frontal RCS of 0.1-0.5m2 showing up on Google of Su57, is purely That of its shape.

And AFAIK Su57's frontal rcs is the worst out of all the operational 5th gens in most relevant bands( except VHF, where su57 performs exceptionally well compared f35,J20)

BUT

F35 itself has frontal median rcs of 0.08-0.15m2 purely based on its shape.

F35's RAS material on its body is required to bring its rcs to the widely reported 0.0005-0.001m2 from 0.08-0.15m2

 

[Rajput Lion]

If it can reduce its RCS further significantly, every Su-57 supporter will be vey happy.

View attachment 49900

Frontal RCS is as good as other VLO fighters. With new engines, its rear aspect RCS is also going to improve substantially. Just wait for some time bud, all of ya shall be pleasantly surprised

 

[Speedster1]

Another was MAWS pylon which could have been implemented.

The pylon mounted config had 2 front and rear apertures + conformal housings on the spine and underbelly for look up, look down coverage. One can only speculate that the latter 2 fittings might have created flight envelope problems.

It'd be interesting to see how this is addressed on MKI UPG.

That's what i'm also saying that MLU has limits beyond which it is possible but not feasible technically, financially, politically & chronologically.

The IAF could've gone in for an off the shelf pylon mounted solution like Terma PIDS which can integrate customer furnished maws/cmds/rwr payloads. Terma also offers podded solutions btw.

That MAWS pod is among the worst defence product i've ever seen, with hardpoint wastage & blind spots.

 

[YoungWolf]

As regards MAWS, the IAF had experimented with airframe mounted and pod based configs for DARE/Elisra DC MAWS years ago.

Afaik, the IAF preferred IIR MAWS because of their relatively low false alarm rates vs UV MAWS used by the MKM and Chinese J-11/16s. But there has been no news since then.

IAF is considering a pod based DC-MAWS for the MKI UPG. Earlier, they considered airframe mounted setup which involved drilling a few strategically placed holes on the airframe. It was dropped as UAC/Sukhoi threatened to pull the airworthiness certificate if such a mod was incorporated without their explicit involvement. IAF meanwhile, wants to keep the Russian involvement as little as possible with the Super Sukhoi upgrade programme.

 

[YoungWolf]

Americans are testing it with Super Hornets.

Americans were testing it, but have since dropped it. It's old news.

PS: Those who think that Su-57 is not true 5th gen, let just first few units reach India and let TACDE have a look at it. Both IAF & GOI would be astonished by its "all-aspect" VLO characteristics. Wait n watch

Yeah right. IAF themselves weren't happy the frontal RCS of the Su-57 when they dropped out, and since then nothing has changed on that front. RCS blockers are like lipstick on a pig, won't be of much use so that issue would remain unless redesigned completely.

Frontal RCS is as good as other VLO fighters. With new engines, its rear aspect RCS is also going to improve substantially. Just wait for some time bud, all of ya shall be pleasantly surprised

In your dreams maybe. Agree on the rear aspect RCS improvement with new engines & nozzles, but rest is just unhealthy amounts of cope from you. Chill out mate, even the Russians don't shill as hard as you for this aircraft.

 

[Speedster1]

IAF is considering a pod based DC-MAWS for the MKI UPG. Earlier, they considered airframe mounted setup which involved drilling a few strategically placed holes on the airframe. It was dropped as UAC/Sukhoi threatened to pull the airworthiness certificate if such a mod was incorporated without their explicit involvement. IAF meanwhile, wants to keep the Russian involvement as little as possible with the Super Sukhoi upgrade programme.

Strange. The Malaysian MKMs were the first to get airframe mounted MAWS from South Africa's Avitronics while the IAF toyed with multiple solutions like MILDS-F , Elisra MAWS over the years and ended up with nothing.

The Russians themselves don't have MAWS on their Su-30SM/SM2. It's bizarre to say the least.

 

[Bhartiya Naagrik Sainik]

There's is no 6th Gen AHCA if GoI buys the Su-57. That's how it should be or at least that's going by the information in the public domain which seems inclined towards MII

That's the replacement for the MKI . Initially it'd complement the MKI & if & when it comes in full strength it'd replace it .

Assuming the negotiations & agreement happens before 2030 . You're looking at induction of somewhere between 5-6 squadrons by 2040 . Possibly a Mk-2 as well .

OTOH if we go in for 2-3 squadrons only vide imports & cap it then & there , then this could well serve as a template for a J-36 analogue for us to develop as a 6th Gen FA.

Otherwise the option of a JV for FCAS has just presented itself . Whatever be the case , India's in demand be it by the countries developing the GCAP or France or Russia. When it rains it pours. We've a problem of plenty.

> The public info says -
- Defence Minister Rajnath Singh has told DoD to look into 6gen tech. So we need to start few thingslike wind tunnel models, CFD analysis, etc.
- Chances of getting Su-57 are increasing daily.
Hence i said that if Russia allows modifying airframe of Su-57 then it can be a precusrsor or TD of 6gen, not the production 6gen jet.
Otherwise,no Su-57 MKI means 6gen TD also clean-sheet.

> What is MII?

> IDK if J-36 like jet can land on an AC. May be J-50 can.
But i don't imagine AHCA like J-36. Different people would imagine our 6gen differently.

> From current models of FCAS & GCAP it doesn't look they can carry AGM, CrM, AShM longer than 4m. And GCAP may not be having naval version.