PAK-FA / Sukhoi Su-57 - Updates and Discussions

[_Anonymous_]

With new engines, this plane is just going to be super awesome. Stealth, supercruise, supermaneuverabilty, AI, MUM-T, ability to defeat both RF and IIR missiles. 360° IR sensors and in future distributed radar sensors too.

Cheek mounted AESA arrays which means it can shoot and crank with impunity while the enemy just will have to break away and run or die.

Dropping out of FGFA was our biggest mistake. IAF just wanted Rafale at that time. Now everyone realizes what a big mistake it was. Even 2-3 squadrons of Su-57M will provide IAF with teeth to seriously hurt PLAAF and J-20.

Apparently the Izdeliye-30 still hasn't begun testing on the Su-57 . I read reports it was to happen towards the last Qtr last yr . Add 3-4 yrs of testing & certification after that . That's already 2027. Add negotiations & contract signing to it which'd be 3 yrs & we're in 2030 post which 3 yrs for delivery of the first FA which makes it 2033 .

In any case we'd receive AMCA Mk-1 by 2032-33 & Mk-2 by 2037- 38 give or take a couple of yrs. So what's the point ?

Frankly I don't see it coming when we want it to which was one of the other reasons we dropped out of the project. As it is we're running out of time .

 

[_Anonymous_]

Our 6th gen prototype has already flown however those are just the programs that are public. The black programs we got going will be used against China and likely Russia if and when it goes hot. US made it clear a few years ago to both nations what we got when US decided to take them out for a spin on a clear and sunny day over a populated area at con altitude to make sure the folks below take pictures and post them online.

We Murrrcans aint concern or going to be surprised.

I've seen you post this video for the fifth time . Seriously don't you have other sources instead of regurgitating the same old nonsense.

And you'd be surprised by China if you take them for granted . In any case if you come to Taiwan's aid you'd be fighting on their turf . Plus no land borders to do what you did to Ukraine against Russia. You may take down their navy & air force at the risk of losing your own . You're not home safe & dry by any reckoning here .

Also remember this is the first time you'd be up against a peer post WW-2 & the last time you encountered them they chased you all the way down from Yalu River to the southern most tip of the Korean peninsula before you both wound up exactly where the war began 4 yrs ago & a Ceasefire declared.

 

[Ankit Kumar]

USAF has taken Su-57 and J-20 very seriously. That's why the NGAD exists: to remain ahead of future Russian/Chinese aerial threats and maintain air-dominance.

I was referring to US fanboys who have mocked Su-57 right from its inception.

Keeping the US angle aside Su-57 has a competitor in KAI KFX imo. Not only in similarity and capability wise, but also in possible export markets.

 

[zinswinsin]

USAF has taken Su-57 and J-20 very seriously. That's why the NGAD exists: to remain ahead of future Russian/Chinese aerial threats and maintain air-dominance.

I was referring to US fanboys who have mocked Su-57 right from its inception.

F-35 squadron can't shoot down a SU-57 squadron since it doesn't exist.

 

[randomradio]

Some old Sukhoi patents regarding T-50 where the said targeted RCS was set lower than F-22. F-16.net guys were very happy, obviously, lol.

But US fanboys are in for a nasty surprise. China displayed a 6th gen fighter concept in a simulator which looked so much like Su-57 in profile.

View attachment 26433


Here is LM concept 6th gen art which they recently displayed:

View attachment 26434

Source of both images: China's 6th generation fighter concept appears in AVIC simulator - Air Data News

Both are eerily close to Su-57 than F-22/F-35/J-20 in profile.

IMO, when Sukhoi claimed that Su-57M is going to be a near 6th gen plane or a 5+ gen, people laughed. But they shouldn't now after seeing these 6th gen concepts.

Patent data isn't a secret.

Yeah, Su-57 is a step up over a jet like the F-22. I doubt it's gonna be a direct NGAD competitor, but it's at least gonna be a step down.

 

[Rajput Lion]

Patent data isn't a secret.

Yeah, you're correct. Apparently it was some classified Sukhoi/UAC data regarding RCS of T-50.

Yeah, Su-57 is a step up over a jet like the F-22. I doubt it's gonna be a direct NGAD competitor, but it's at least gonna be a step down.

+1.

 

[randomradio]

Dropping out of FGFA was our biggest mistake.

Not at all. We were being taken for a ride. It was a decision better left for 2025, not 2013.

Also, what we need is a Su-60, the 57 has features that are absolutely useless to us, our operational environment is very different. We need less speed, but more stealth and endurance. AMCA was reconfigured to replace the FGFA requirement, so that's done and dusted.

2 squadrons of 57 can always be bought without having to start FGFA. I'd like to see 2 squadrons with some of the MKI MLU avionics. But I have given up hopes on this type. I won't be surprised if the IAF shows interest in PAK DP instead, in the 2030s.

 

[Rajput Lion]

Apparently the Izdeliye-30 still hasn't begun testing on the Su-57 .

Begun testing?? It first flew way back in 2017 according to UAC. This is as official as it can be:

I read reports it was to happen towards the last Qtr last yr . Add 3-4 yrs of testing & certification after that . That's already 2027.

Serial delivery of Su-57M with Type-30 shall begin within few years.

Add negotiations & contract signing to it which'd be 3 yrs & we're in 2030 post which 3 yrs for delivery of the first FA which makes it 2033 .

In any case we'd receive AMCA Mk-1 by 2032-33 & Mk-2 by 2037- 38 give or take a couple of yrs. So what's the point ?

Frankly I don't see it coming when we want it to which was one of the other reasons we dropped out of the project. As it is we're running out of time .

If we sign a contract now, by the end of this decade we can get at least 2 squadrons, which along with more Rafales and MKI MLU shall suffice. If we can TOT of Type-30 then even better.

 

[Rajput Lion]

Not at all. We were being taken for a ride. It was a decision better left for 2025, not 2013.

IAF left the programme because of MRCA. Now it has come back to bite our a s s. We don't have any peer answer to J-20 and our stealth bird is a whole decade away or more.

Also, what we need is a Su-60, the 57 has features that are absolutely useless to us, our operational environment is very different. We need less speed, but more stealth and endurance. AMCA was reconfigured to replace the FGFA requirement, so that's done and dusted.

FGFA was always going to be what you wrote. 2-seat with less speed but with more stealth and advance sensors.

2 squadrons of 57 can always be bought without having to start FGFA. I'd like to see 2 squadrons with some of the MKI MLU avionics. But I have given up hopes on this type. I won't be surprised if the IAF shows interest in PAK DP instead, in the 2030s.

Yup, time for FGFA is gone. I know. But Su-57MKI is what I support getting too. So our views are pretty similar.

 

[randomradio]

IAF left the programme because of MRCA. Now it has come back to bite our a s s. We don't have any peer answer to J-20 and our stealth bird is a whole decade away or more.

The IAF left FGFA because of uncertainty in meeting objectives and timeline. It was considered too high risk. The IAF was also not happy with the workshare arrangement. Their thinking was if HAL is not up to the task, then it doesn't make sense to pay for its development. It's pretty much the same argument I made for an Indo-French collaboration for FCAS. We pay, they do the work, that's pointless. We are still 5 years too early.

Rather, the decision is still pending. The options are to restart FGFA or license produce 6 Su-57 squadrons or just buy 3 squadrons.

The first option is most definitely gone, HAL's incompetence and DRDO's aspirations killed it. The second option is probably on HAL's wishlist, but the Ozar line is being dismantled in favour of LCA Mk2, so they need new infrastructure for it, very unlikely to happen now. The third option is still pending, but I don't see the IAF exercising it without the Russians finishing development and placing sizable orders first.

 

[_Anonymous_]

Begun testing?? It first flew way back in 2017 according to UAC. This is as official as it can be:

According to this report the "upgraded version " made it's "debut" flight last October.

Russia completes debut flight of upgraded Su-57, its fifth generation fighter

But, how many can it produce?

interestingengineering.com

And this report seems to confirm it. So apparently first flight of the M series happened in Oct / Nov 2022 .

Russia's Su-57 Stealth Fighter Prepares To Join China's J-20 At Zhuhai Airshow; MiG-35, Su-35 'Add To Spice'

Russia will present its Su-57 fifth-generation fighter aircraft at the International Aerospace Exhibition Airshow China 2022

eurasiantimes.com

 

[Rajput Lion]

According to this report the "upgraded version " made it's "debut" flight last October.

Russia completes debut flight of upgraded Su-57, its fifth generation fighter

But, how many can it produce?

interestingengineering.com

And this report seems to confirm it. So apparently first flight of the M series happened in Oct / Nov 2022 .

Russia's Su-57 Stealth Fighter Prepares To Join China's J-20 At Zhuhai Airshow; MiG-35, Su-35 'Add To Spice'

Russia will present its Su-57 fifth-generation fighter aircraft at the International Aerospace Exhibition Airshow China 2022

eurasiantimes.com

Su-57M is about more advance avionics, better stealth and better kinematics thanks to new engines. It made its first flight late last year.

But Type-30 engines are in flight testing from 2017 onwards and about to get in serial production pretty soon.

 

[Rajput Lion]

The IAF left FGFA because of uncertainty in meeting objectives and timeline. It was considered too high risk. The IAF was also not happy with the workshare arrangement. Their thinking was if HAL is not up to the task, then it doesn't make sense to pay for its development. It's pretty much the same argument I made for an Indo-French collaboration for FCAS. We pay, they do the work, that's pointless. We are still 5 years too early.

Rather, the decision is still pending. The options are to restart FGFA or license produce 6 Su-57 squadrons or just buy 3 squadrons.

The first option is most definitely gone, HAL's incompetence and DRDO's aspirations killed it. The second option is probably on HAL's wishlist, but the Ozar line is being dismantled in favour of LCA Mk2, so they need new infrastructure for it, very unlikely to happen now. The third option is still pending, but I don't see the IAF exercising it without the Russians finishing development and placing sizable orders first.

Some blame HAL some IAF's love for MRCA aka Rafale, but whatever the reason, we're outgunned now. AMCA would only join the fray next decade or so. So if we don't procure Su-57, then we will have no peer for J-20.

We need Su-57M/MKI to regain air dominance over PLAAF which MKI provided from 2002 to 2017. No getting away from this truth.

 

[randomradio]

Some blame HAL some IAF's love for MRCA aka Rafale, but whatever the reason, we're outgunned now. AMCA would only join the fray next decade or so. So if we don't procure Su-57, then we will have no peer for J-20.

We need Su-57M/MKI to regain air dominance over PLAAF which MKI provided from 2002 to 2017. No getting away from this truth.

The J-20 being introduced first was inevitable. Su-57M is still 4-5 years away from seeing service in the RuAF, and any contract with India will see delivery only after 2030. If we want new fighter jets this decade, it's gonna have to be a GTG contract for more Rafales or bust.

The Russians are unveiling the export version tomorrow. It will be interesting, both the F-35 and Su-57 in the same airshow.

 

[Rajput Lion]

The J-20 being introduced first was inevitable. Su-57M is still 4-5 years away from seeing service in the RuAF, and any contract with India will see delivery only after 2030. If we want new fighter jets this decade, it's gonna have to be a GTG contract for more Rafales or bust.

The Russians are unveiling the export version tomorrow. It will be interesting, both the F-35 and Su-57 in the same airshow.

Su-57E is a no go for us. It's either Su-57M or Su-57MKI. Best was 2- seat derivative, but that looks unlikely now.

After Ukraine war, Russia has expedited Su-57 development. Su-57M is going into production within few years. If we sign a contract soon, we may start to get our fighters along with RuAF around 2025-26.

Rafale + MKI(upgraded) combo is good enough to fight J-20+J-16+J-10C combo. But Su-57+Rafale+ Super Su-30MKI combo is good enough to kick their a s s.

 

[randomradio]

Su-57E is a no go for us. It's either Su-57M or Su-57MKI. Best was 2- seat derivative, but that looks unlikely now.

After Ukraine war, Russia has expedited Su-57 development. Su-57M is going into production within few years. If we sign a contract soon, we may start to get our fighters along with RuAF around 2025-26.

Rafale + MKI(upgraded) combo is good enough to fight J-20+J-16+J-10C combo. But Su-57+Rafale+ Super Su-30MKI combo is good enough to kick their a s s.

Su-57E for now, and Su-57ME later on. The aircraft at the airshow will be more about the airframe and avionics than engine.

We can't get it that early anyway. The Russians must first introduce it themselves first, during that time they will make the Su-57ME and allow us to test it. Then comes contract negotiations, customisation etc. That's anywhere between 2027-30. That is if we actually decide to go for it.

Also, the IAF will focus on the MRFA contract first. In my estimation, it will take 3 years to finish the tender and until 2027 to sign a contract, my best guess. The IAF will not do anything to jeopardise it. So no interest in Su-57 until the deal is done and dusted.

If we do decide to go for it, I believe we will take it up in 2028, ie, after the next 5 years, perhaps sign a contract by 2030-32 and then receive them after 2035. The two-seat version could also become available during this time. I'd actually argue any interest we see in Su-57 will be for much later models compared to Su-57E/ME, like a Su-60 or Su-65, 'cause it needs to be a step up over AMCA and serve as a stopgap for the MKI replacement. There's no point in buying a jet that's similar in capabilities to AMCA.

Which is why I favour the PAK DP within that timeframe instead. Apart from its high speed-high altitude capabilities, it's also expected to be more stealthy than the Su-57, it will naturally have more endurance. It's better to import a jet that will complement the AMCA rather than compete with it.

It's disappointing, but unless the IAF goes for 2 more Rafale squadrons, we are not going to get any new capability boost until after 2030, even Su-57E/ME. We are headed towards another lost decade. The only good news is Rafales for IN.

 

[_Anonymous_]

Begun testing?? It first flew way back in 2017 according to UAC. This is as official as it can be:

I was referring to it's testing mated with the Su-57M which was to commence late last year & it did contrary to what I claimed earlier . It'd still take yrs for certification. So the rest of what I posted w.r.t the T/L still holds good .

Serial delivery of Su-57M with Type-30 shall begin within few years.

If we sign a contract now, by the end of this decade we can get at least 2 squadrons, which along with more Rafales and MKI MLU shall suffice. If we can TOT of Type-30 then even better.

Agreed. If....is a very key conjunction especially vital in the Indian context considering the agility of our bureaucracy & swift decision making process.

 

[Sathya]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1625511299982716930

 

[BMD]

 

[_Anonymous_]

View attachment 26643
View attachment 26644

How about an article or at least a write up on what's depicted there , Paddy. This is a Forum catering to defense issues in ENGLISH not Russian & certainly not Instagram as you seem to think of it , I'd have you know.