That's well said. I think there is a lot of potential for doing more here. I am sure that it is being already done. This is a conflict that has only seen the utilisation of a limited set of abilities on both sides. War has so many more dimensions that have not been seen in this op. People here are concerned about IAF's degradation and are expressing it here. It is years of frustration that is bursting forth. Understandable.
Operation Sindoor: India Strikes Terroist Camps Inside Pakitsan
- Thread starter Defc0n
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Now it's not platforms vs platforms, you can't afford to fight which advantages enemy strength, tactics are evolving and new threats are coming out, now how many times you have seen tank duels in recent conflicts, it's almost a handful, Drones have become the killers for tanks,
IAF too learned this after the initial hours of conflicts, and on may 9th & 10th they made sure that PAF won't be able to take flight, after the morning attacks none of the PAF aircrafts we're in air to defend Thier airspace against IAF su30mki and jaguars,
It's not preventing you are going for direct kill, when you have the chance to kill the enemy on ground Why do you want to kill them in the air,
And for countering J-35, IAF will not get any 5th gen jet till 2030, be it su57, F-35, AMCA or anything,
If you want to denying them in your airspace then you need powerful anti stealth radars, and tracking radar's to make a kill, which is not easy against the stealth platforms, as you radar's can be High value targets,
Then What's the easy job, destroy the base & runways, the guidance seekers have come very far from the 90's and 2000's, the accuracy have increased a lot, a missile with terminal Speed of Mach -5, will obliterate everything in the 15 m radius, there's no escaping from it,
Here's the russian orshenik damages which did to Ukrainian sites, it delivered more damages then what a strike group can do, to be fair we have missiles which will give you greater results, we have hit Pakistan everywhere from peshawar to Karachi & lahore, skardu, nothing is safe in pakistan,
A guided 250km range pinaka Will cook up every forward bases, as individual pinaka vehicle can also work independently without the command vehicle, there's nothing stopping salvo fire of pinaka, and any preemptive strike won't work against pinaka, it's like finding needle in haystacks,
Pakistan geography doesn't allows them a safe heaven unlike china, where platforms like J-35 Will be a bigger threat, but in pakistan theater you have the luxury to destroy them in the ground itself
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India successfully tests Crystal Maze-2 missile capable of striking targets up to 250 kilometres away
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A impressive missile. A good addition that lived up to its purchase during this conflict. Little love shown to it. However, as per RUMINT the IAF is rather satisfied with it.
Operation Sindoor: How BrahMos strikes and precision air strikes brought Pakistan to its knees
India conducted deep precision airstrikes on Pakistani airbases using BrahMos missiles and other standoff weapons, targeting terrorist infrastructure and strategic locations. These strikes prompted U.S. intervention and a subsequent truce proposal. India claims to have achieved military...
No need to worry, sar........ the $300 million-a-piece Rafale we’ve acquired will surely help us overcome such minor obstacles with their Spectra enabled, passive-aggressive churan....... After all, they’re equipped with cutting-edge, Vishwaguru-certified anti-stealth detection technologia........ so advanced, it gives us an edge not just over fifth or sixth-generation fighters, but even over starships.
Next time, there will be no bureaucratic shackles imposed by the MEA. We’ll go in unrestrained...... perhaps even fly MiG-21s against J-35s and bring them down in true cinematic style.
Joke aside.....
You’re absolutely right...... this does feel like a repeat of 2019, but with higher stakes....... The concern isn’t just about static air defenses like the HQ-9 or HQ-19, but the evolving air combat landscape, especially with platforms like the J-35 entering the equation. In a beyond-visual-range (BVR) engagement, the technological gap....... particularly in terms of stealth, sensor fusion, and electronic warfare could put the IAF at a real disadvantage.
Relying solely on preemptive strikes or grounding enemy aircraft isn’t sustainable strategy. What’s needed is a doctrinal shift....... accelerated modernization of IAF platforms, more aggressive integration of AWACS and electronic warfare assets, and a clear political mandate that allows the military to respond with operational flexibility.....get the babu out period...... The next round won't just test our aircraft......... it’ll test the system that governs how we use them.
Regards.
Balakot taught us some lesson. We were well prepared this time. I think PAF getting these toys will likely force our establishment to fastrack things like induction of AWACs, BVRAAMs, etc. When there is a sword flying on your head, you are forced to act. Panicking won't help. At the end you have to asses your options with steadfast mind to do the right thing. What we can do in short term? What we can do in long term? etc. And folks in the establishment are already aware of these things more avg defence nerd here.
Also one need to understand you can't just panic and do things in a hurry leading to operational failures. Like aggressively giving greennlit to a system that might be very experimental just because enemy has something like that.
Also one need to understand you can't just panic and do things in a hurry leading to operational failures. Like aggressively giving greennlit to a system that might be very experimental just because enemy has something like that.
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I don’t buy the whole “not platform vs platform” argument. What is IAF supposed to do when Pak lobs their BVR nonsense from D-Max (AGAIN) and guess what we cannot even see their jets on our radars?
All our units will be forced to go defensive giving PAF more time unleash the next salvo. So for the strike package the choice becomes, either go defensive and you are unable to reach the weapons release envelope or go gung ho and lose quite a few jets to the BVRs.
Everyone downplaying this today will be shouting at the top of their voice - Oh sh*t, we lost jet! How did we allow Paf to play the same game using the same rule again!
For every one saying this, I am curious, what’s the possible tactics with our current 4.5+ Gen jets and IADS ?
Assume the same scenario, we have a strike package (Say Rafales, Jaguars and M2Ks) and we have Su30s providing fighter cover. PAF comes up with J-35s, J-10s and F-16s and stays deep inside Pak, assume D-Max of their corresponding missiles —
F16s: AMRAAMs,
J10s: PL-15Es,
J35s: PL-17Es (400KM Range) to target our AWACS and PL-15Es (150KM) .
We (awacs) and ground based radars can pickup J-10s and F-16s, cannot pickup J-35s at the same range.
Now what’s the play from our side?
All our units will be forced to go defensive giving PAF more time unleash the next salvo. So for the strike package the choice becomes, either go defensive and you are unable to reach the weapons release envelope or go gung ho and lose quite a few jets to the BVRs.
Everyone downplaying this today will be shouting at the top of their voice - Oh sh*t, we lost jet! How did we allow Paf to play the same game using the same rule again!
For every one saying this, I am curious, what’s the possible tactics with our current 4.5+ Gen jets and IADS ?
Assume the same scenario, we have a strike package (Say Rafales, Jaguars and M2Ks) and we have Su30s providing fighter cover. PAF comes up with J-35s, J-10s and F-16s and stays deep inside Pak, assume D-Max of their corresponding missiles —
F16s: AMRAAMs,
J10s: PL-15Es,
J35s: PL-17Es (400KM Range) to target our AWACS and PL-15Es (150KM) .
We (awacs) and ground based radars can pickup J-10s and F-16s, cannot pickup J-35s at the same range.
Now what’s the play from our side?
We buying a 5th gen won't change that scenario either. It won't be able to detect their J35 either. It will just allow us to do the same thing to them. So what's your point? That's why it isn't really "platform vs platform" anymore.
Natural plan against fifth gen aircrafts is to embolden your defences like more AWACs, more VHF radars, more OTH radars, better EW systems, etc.
The point is same, you cannot shoot at something that you don’t see. It is indeed platform vs platform, if we have a stealth platform, do you think our strike package will consist of the non-stealth systems?
Assume you have F-35/Su-57 in our inventory. That will be the tip of the spear for us in that case which will be in charge of carrying out the strikes. We probably don’t even need to engage with PAF in such a case. You can formulate strategies against a mix of stealth + non-stealth platforms when you have a similar mix.
While I agree with the role of stealth platforms as the tip of the spear, it's important to note that having 5th-gen aircraft mainly allows us to execute the same DMax tactics against the opponent. It doesn't fundamentally solve the challenge of defending against long-range BVRAAM launches from standoff distances. You have to deal with it regardless.
To effectively counter that, we’d need far more advanced capabilities—like dynamic radar networks integrated with drones for persistent situational awareness. But such systems remain largely theoretical at this stage.
5th gen will definitely give us an edge if we are the one who initiatine the combat. However, nothing stops PAF from initiating the engagement by targeting our AWACs. For that we have to find other solutions. Maybe we have to focus on developing longer range AWAC systems (I don't think it's feasible). Or maybe we have to fastrack the pseudo satelite systems like CATS infinity. Idk what we else we can do.
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Agreed, the scenario which I based my post on was us initiating the attack. If PAF starts the proceedings, they can lob PL-17s from D-MAX and our AWACs will be in deep sh*t in such a scenario.
I was addressing one part of the problem, you have highlighted another.
In a counter strike situation, the element of surprise is kind of lost - it’s known that an attack will come, only unknowns are time and place - we will have BVR capabilities (STAR, Gandiv, rumoured Brahmos A2A awacs killer) which can engage targets at a very long range, hell, our S-400s and future Kusha M3 can shoot their awacs down. So in this particular case, for such mission profile stealth platforms are not that useful.
However, consider the counter strike, the strike package will again have 5th gen elements thereby avoiding a likely pissing contest with PAF similar to what we saw this time..
So like it or not, at some level it will become a platform v/s platform in a more nuanced way. Without a 5th gen platform, there will be a capability disparity on IAF’s side which can and will be a handicap for any future conflict.
For now PAF propaganda remains weak. Another attempt shot down. The desperation is quite strong to be honest.
You can't combat effectively 5th gen jet in the air when you don't have one,
In this conflict PAF couldn't breach the Indian air space,
What they gonna do is they will use the J-35 for strike missions inside indian air space, with the combination of P17 & PL15E they gonna make sure thwart the Indian awacs, and attack the base all along the western sectors,
They will not play the defensive game when they have the edge, they aren't going to use J-35 for defensive role,
They will try to instigate a conflict in the next couple of years,
And indian 5th gen fighter will not arrive this decade no matter whichever platforms be it be,
VHF and other radar's will strengthen your air defences but its not 100% guarantee that it will stop a stealth fighter breaching your air space,
Until a 5th gen platform arrives, you fight with whatever you have,
Also The PAF first goal would be nxt time blinding the IAF, by taking out indian forward radar site's by using J-35 in the initial attack, and gain air superiority in nxt strike,
The only way you can Stop it is by going for the kill in the first place itself,
India showed that it has the capabilities to do that,
Even if you have some tactics Will always be in the backfoot, as the combination of kj500 and Saab will be watching over you no matter what,
The tactics should be take out the forward operation bases of PAF in the initial hours, pushed them to deeper inside Pakistan, use stand-off weapons Rudram2 & 3, from stand-off ranges and blind the enemy,
I read somewhere that PL-17 have a lofted launch trajectory to achieve such long distance. So there is a chance our ADs might be able to intercept it. Maybe we should work on some kind of anti long range BVRAAM suite or something.
Hmm.. Do you have the source? Will be a good read. Main problem is this, when is the RWR activated? Isn’t the case for most Indian platforms (other than Rafale) that it only starts growling when the missile goes Pitbull? I believe (and I am not 100% sure, so feel free to correct me here if I am wrong), Rafale is the only platform that can detect a launch ..
Interception will largely depend on detection, tracking. Do we have such capability
Can our awacs/ground based long range radars detect the launch?But can a 5th gen aircraft truly become invisible to a multi-layered air defence? Certainly it can come much closer to launch its package but I doubt they can breach into the Indian airspace without being discovered. Especially when our air defence system is bound to get emboldened with time. I still think Pakistanis would play a bit safe and try to take out our AWACs and radar sites near the border from their side before trying to enter our airspace.
I think it was on wiki. But then again wiki can be rather unreliable.Hmm.. Do you have the source? Will be a good read. Main problem is this, when is the RWR activated? Isn’t the case for most Indian platforms (other than Rafale) that it only starts growling when the missile goes Pitbull? I believe (and I am not 100% sure, so feel free to correct me here if I am wrong), Rafale is the only platform that can detect a launch ..
Interception will largely depend on detection, tracking. Do we have such capability
PL-17 - Wikipedia
This pdf document is a rather good read though.
