National Security Architecture Reforms & Theatre Commands : Discussions

_Anonymous_

Senior Member
Dec 4, 2017
13,760
9,826
Mumbai
Their stance is perfectly justified. But MoD is going ahead regardless.

You just said you totally support the initiative for jointness / theatre commands. Now you're performing somersaults as usual. Why don't you qualify your statements with - individual services perspective, MoD / CNS / GoI perspective & outsider's perspective. That way we'd know which randomradio we're dealing with.

Modi doesn't have to do anything of the sort. We really don't have the funds to spare when development is the main agenda.

Ah, is it? That was specifically sprung for you.Glad you took the bait.So what was that about big ticket capex acquisitions beginning 2022, your favourite phrase all through 2016 till date?
 

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
10,007
7,643
India
You just said you totally support the initiative for jointness / theatre commands. Now you're performing somersaults as usual. Why don't you qualify your statements with - individual services perspective, MoD / CNS / GoI perspective & outsider's perspective. That way we'd know which randomradio we're dealing with.

Whatchu talking about? Assets are permanently assigned to TCs. So how will you share 3 Phalcons among 3 or 4 commands? The same with just 6 refuellers or with 3 or 4 special mission aircraft etc. Even our fighter and helicopter numbers are not enough for assets distribution.

Theater Commands are capital intensive. In our current system, we can share assets among the many fronts we have. In TCs, we have to buy more of the same to do what we are currently doing. Look at the size of PLAAF and USAF to draw comparisons.

So without knowing what TCs are about, your statements come off as ignorant. We are trying to do what richer countries are doing without any assets to distribute.

Only IA and IN are ready for TCs, the IAF is obviously not, and won't be ready until we enter the 2030s. So the MoD is pushing ahead with creating TCs without enough assets with the IAF to distribute. This is just common sense.

So the TCs are going to have to learn to share the IAF among themselves until enough assets are procured.

Ah, is it? That was specifically sprung for you.Glad you took the bait.So what was that about big ticket capex acquisitions beginning 2022, your favourite phrase all through 2016 till date?

Nothing's changed, except due to the delay in RFP release, that 2022 goal has shifted by a year.

When MMRCA, MRCBF, NUH, FICV, FRCV, large artillery orders etc come up for inductions, do you think funds won't be allocated? The funds allocations at the time will be huge. The infantry modernisation itself is such a huge program, never mind artillery and armour modernisation. Just the 2023-2030 naval expansion will be more than what we are currently doing with all 3 services combined.
 

_Anonymous_

Senior Member
Dec 4, 2017
13,760
9,826
Mumbai
Whatchu talking about? Assets are permanently assigned to TCs. So how will you share 3 Phalcons among 3 or 4 commands? The same with just 6 refuellers or with 3 or 4 special mission aircraft etc. Even our fighter and helicopter numbers are not enough for assets distribution.
Correct me if I'm wrong. We've 3 AWACS & 3 AEWs. There's going to be a Western & Eastern Theatre Command to cater to both China & Pakistan. Now we can either decide on the distribution of these assets & make a clear forecast of what the future needs of these two principal commands ought to be after defining priority or assign the IAF responsibility of catering to both commands. Otherwise by the time the IAF gets what it requires today in a decade, the situation on either borders would have changed so much so as time render our accretions insignificant & the we're faced with deja vu all over again. Ditto for the other assets.

Theater Commands are capital intensive. In our current system, we can share assets among the many fronts we have. In TCs, we have to buy more of the same to do what we are currently doing. Look at the size of PLAAF and USAF to draw comparisons.

When I drew your attention in the past to the size of PLA's & PLAAF's inventory, you threw at me the fact that China has other disputed borders to cater to particularly in East Asia. Hence they couldn't afford to deploy all their assets on the Indian border. Let's see how you answer this one now.

So without knowing what TCs are about, your statements come off as ignorant. We are trying to do what richer countries are doing without any assets to distribute.

No I don't know anything about TCs. Nor do I hold the view that we have any assets to distribute. You see, I lack that seer like quality that you possess of simultaneously seeing things from the MoD / CDS / GoI 's perspective, seeing things from the perspective of the individual's perspective & seeing things from the outsider's perspective. And then attempting to reconciling them while almost always tripping yourself & falling face first in the bargain.

In medical terms it's called MPD. But it also offers individuals plausible deniability. For more info see the movie Identity.


Only IA and IN are ready for TCs, the IAF is obviously not, and won't be ready until we enter the 2030s. So the MoD is pushing ahead with creating TCs without enough assets with the IAF to distribute. This is just common sense.

So the TCs are going to have to learn to share the IAF among themselves until enough assets are procured.

That's what is the idea. Distribute assets as they are or identify IAF as a joint resource to both commands. Identify priorities, draw up a list & make up the numbers while achieving jointmanship & simultaneous right sizing instead of waiting for all the assets to materialise before proceeding with this exercise. In any case for all the units to mesh together & act as one organism, it'd take a decade given the sheer numbers involved here of men, material & other resources. The more we delay this exercise, the more the integration of the said TCs will get delayed.


Nothing's changed, except due to the delay in RFP release, that 2022 goal has shifted by a year.

By just a year? Between 2014-2020 our GDP grew by 1 trillion USDs which makes it approx 170 billion USDs p.a. For us to achieve 5 trillion USDs by 2025 , we'd have to achieve 400 billion USDs p. a. From now to 2025. That's twice 2.5 times what we've been achieving and the growth forecast for the next fiscal is still 6%<.


When MMRCA, MRCBF, NUH, FICV, FRCV, large artillery orders etc come up for inductions, do you think funds won't be allocated? The funds allocations at the time will be huge. The infantry modernisation itself is such a huge program, never mind artillery and armour modernisation. Just the 2023-2030 naval expansion will be more than what we are currently doing with all 3 services combined.

Sure. I'm more optimistic than you're about 2022.That date is just imprinted in my brain. No amount of erasure will help. Just like Total Recall.
 

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
10,007
7,643
India
Correct me if I'm wrong. We've 3 AWACS & 3 AEWs. There's going to be a Western & Eastern Theatre Command to cater to both China & Pakistan. Now we can either decide on the distribution of these assets & make a clear forecast of what the future needs of these two principal commands ought to be after defining priority or assign the IAF responsibility of catering to both commands. Otherwise by the time the IAF gets what it requires today in a decade, the situation on either borders would have changed so much so as time render our accretions insignificant & the we're faced with deja vu all over again. Ditto for the other assets.

That's the reason why IAF is not ready for TC. But instead they are making the IAF a flexible force for now, the air chief will assign assets on demand.

Also, we may see 3 TCs or even 4, when it comes to Pak and China. I don't think the army will give up the Northern Command to IAF, they may want perpetual control over the northern region, with the east and west being shared.

When I drew your attention in the past to the size of PLA's & PLAAF's inventory, you threw at me the fact that China has other disputed borders to cater to particularly in East Asia. Hence they couldn't afford to deploy all their assets on the Indian border. Let's see how you answer this one now.

You are talking about something else. China has enough assets for TC, it's a different story that most of their force structure is pointed elsewhere. So even those units earmarked for India, which are located in the TC facing India are close to their central TC, which is their reserve TC. Basically even their Indian TC forces are far far away from India and will take time to assemble.

No I don't know anything about TCs. Nor do I hold the view that we have any assets to distribute. You see, I lack that seer like quality that you possess of simultaneously seeing things from the MoD / CDS / GoI 's perspective, seeing things from the perspective of the individual's perspective & seeing things from the outsider's perspective. And then attempting to reconciling them while almost always tripping yourself & falling face first in the bargain.

There's no tripping involved. It's just that some readers do not understand. There are simply too many factors involved in such discussions.

That's what is the idea. Distribute assets as they are or identify IAF as a joint resource to both commands. Identify priorities, draw up a list & make up the numbers while achieving jointmanship & simultaneous right sizing instead of waiting for all the assets to materialise before proceeding with this exercise. In any case for all the units to mesh together & act as one organism, it'd take a decade given the sheer numbers involved here of men, material & other resources. The more we delay this exercise, the more the integration of the said TCs will get delayed.

All that's great on paper. In real situations, we have to see. And without the IAF expanding, TC is simply a logistics related reform.

But yes, making such major reforms takes time to establish.

By just a year? Between 2014-2020 our GDP grew by 1 trillion USDs which makes it approx 170 billion USDs p.a. For us to achieve 5 trillion USDs by 2025 , we'd have to achieve 400 billion USDs p. a. From now to 2025. That's twice 2.5 times what we've been achieving and the growth forecast for the next fiscal is still 6%<.

Regardless, if the govt makes new priorities, all the stuff that's earmarked for induction post 2022 can be funded today itself, with our current economy. It only requires an additional expenditure of $10B a year. So it's not such a big deal to divert funds earmarked for development into defence modernisation. It's just that we are not in a tremendous hurry. Even with our current budget, we have ordered enough tanks, guns and IFVs for the army, in the process of getting as many as 180 fighter jets for the IAF, and are set to get 6 new submarines (not P-75I) and 20 new capital ships, all this over the next 5 years.

Take the GST cess as an example. They added a cess in order to pay for any shortfall in state GST, it's set to end in 2022. The cess collected every year is 1LC ($14B). So after 2022, the same cess can be called defence cess and used for modernisation for 5 more years. Public opinion will be in favour because even the layman will see a very fearsome China after 2022. Just one year's worth of cess is enough to initiate production of all 126 Rafales. The next year's cess can pay for all 200 MWF. The year after, you can pay off all the artillery guns and armoured vehicles. And the next one can pay off the cost of 15 destroyers and frigates. The final one is necessary for the operation and maintenance of all the above. With just 5 years's worth of cess, most of the primary defence modernisation is already done, without touching the actual defence budget. So even the current economy can fund our future programs, it's just that the priority is different today.

What I said about the defence budget getting a boost after 2022 is simply expected in order to pay for all the tenders that will be initiated soon and is nothing out of the ordinary.
 

sid4587

Active member
Jan 10, 2018
381
186
India
That's the reason why IAF is not ready for TC. But instead they are making the IAF a flexible force for now, the air chief will assign assets on demand.

Also, we may see 3 TCs or even 4, when it comes to Pak and China. I don't think the army will give up the Northern Command to IAF, they may want perpetual control over the northern region, with the east and west being shared.



You are talking about something else. China has enough assets for TC, it's a different story that most of their force structure is pointed elsewhere. So even those units earmarked for India, which are located in the TC facing India are close to their central TC, which is their reserve TC. Basically even their Indian TC forces are far far away from India and will take time to assemble.



There's no tripping involved. It's just that some readers do not understand. There are simply too many factors involved in such discussions.



All that's great on paper. In real situations, we have to see. And without the IAF expanding, TC is simply a logistics related reform.

But yes, making such major reforms takes time to establish.



Regardless, if the govt makes new priorities, all the stuff that's earmarked for induction post 2022 can be funded today itself, with our current economy. It only requires an additional expenditure of $10B a year. So it's not such a big deal to divert funds earmarked for development into defence modernisation. It's just that we are not in a tremendous hurry. Even with our current budget, we have ordered enough tanks, guns and IFVs for the army, in the process of getting as many as 180 fighter jets for the IAF, and are set to get 6 new submarines (not P-75I) and 20 new capital ships, all this over the next 5 years.

Take the GST cess as an example. They added a cess in order to pay for any shortfall in state GST, it's set to end in 2022. The cess collected every year is 1LC ($14B). So after 2022, the same cess can be called defence cess and used for modernisation for 5 more years. Public opinion will be in favour because even the layman will see a very fearsome China after 2022. Just one year's worth of cess is enough to initiate production of all 126 Rafales. The next year's cess can pay for all 200 MWF. The year after, you can pay off all the artillery guns and armoured vehicles. And the next one can pay off the cost of 15 destroyers and frigates. The final one is necessary for the operation and maintenance of all the above. With just 5 years's worth of cess, most of the primary defence modernisation is already done, without touching the actual defence budget. So even the current economy can fund our future programs, it's just that the priority is different today.

What I said about the defence budget getting a boost after 2022 is simply expected in order to pay for all the tenders that will be initiated soon and is nothing out of the ordinary.
so cess is the new cloud......
 

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
10,007
7,643
India
so cess is the new cloud......

MoD is making an argument for a defence cess for modernisation.

My argument is simply me saying we have money for our future modernisation even today, just that the spending priorities are different. So my point is after 2022, we will obviously have even more money. Govt spending is growing in double digits after all.
 

Ashwin

Agent_47
Staff member
Administrator
Nov 30, 2017
4,447
7,198
Bangalore
Defence Ministry to have joint secretaries from Army, Navy, Air Force

he Defence Ministry will have joint secretaries from the three services as the government is considering a proposal for appointment of three officers from the Army, Navy and Air Force in this regard.

A proposal has been sent to the Cabinet committee on Appointments for the approval of appointing three Major General-rank officials from the Army, Navy and Air Force as Joint Secretaries in the Department of Military Affairs, Defence officials told India Today TV.

The officers whose names have been sent for approval include Major General Narayanan, Rear Admiral RK Dhir and Air Vice Marshal SK Jha.

The Chief of Defence Staff-led department also has Indian Administrative Services officers including Rajiv Singh Thakur and Shantanu working for it.

The civilians have also been inducted into the DMA along with other staff from the Armed Forces Headquarters cadre who man the important positions in the department.

The CDS has also divided the work between the civilian and military joint secretaries in a manner where the IAS officers are handling the work mostly related to where they have to deal with other ministries and civilian departments.

The parliamentary work is being done by the IAS officers. Most of the work related to three services of the Defence Ministry has come to the DMA while the leftover residual work has been assigned to Joint Secretary (Armed Forces) in Department of Defence.

The DMA is an addition to the four existing verticals in the Union Defence Ministry --the departments of defence, defence research, defence production and development and ex-service welfare.

The notification said that the new department would handle the armed forces, integrated headquarters of the ministry of defence, the territorial army, procurement exclusive to services except capital acquisitions and jointness in procurement, training and staffing for the services through joint planning and integration of their requirements.

It will facilitate the restructuring of military commands for optimal utilisation of resources by bringing about jointness in operations, including through the establishment of joint/theatre commands.
 

STEPHEN COHEN

Senior member
Dec 4, 2017
5,949
3,716
Defence Ministry to have joint secretaries from Army, Navy, Air Force

he Defence Ministry will have joint secretaries from the three services as the government is considering a proposal for appointment of three officers from the Army, Navy and Air Force in this regard.

A proposal has been sent to the Cabinet committee on Appointments for the approval of appointing three Major General-rank officials from the Army, Navy and Air Force as Joint Secretaries in the Department of Military Affairs, Defence officials told India Today TV.

The officers whose names have been sent for approval include Major General Narayanan, Rear Admiral RK Dhir and Air Vice Marshal SK Jha.

The Chief of Defence Staff-led department also has Indian Administrative Services officers including Rajiv Singh Thakur and Shantanu working for it.

The civilians have also been inducted into the DMA along with other staff from the Armed Forces Headquarters cadre who man the important positions in the department.

The CDS has also divided the work between the civilian and military joint secretaries in a manner where the IAS officers are handling the work mostly related to where they have to deal with other ministries and civilian departments.

The parliamentary work is being done by the IAS officers. Most of the work related to three services of the Defence Ministry has come to the DMA while the leftover residual work has been assigned to Joint Secretary (Armed Forces) in Department of Defence.

The DMA is an addition to the four existing verticals in the Union Defence Ministry --the departments of defence, defence research, defence production and development and ex-service welfare.

The notification said that the new department would handle the armed forces, integrated headquarters of the ministry of defence, the territorial army, procurement exclusive to services except capital acquisitions and jointness in procurement, training and staffing for the services through joint planning and integration of their requirements.

It will facilitate the restructuring of military commands for optimal utilisation of resources by bringing about jointness in operations, including through the establishment of joint/theatre commands.

I am sure the IAS lobby is simply biding its time , they dont like others getting authority

When their favourite government is formed , they will cut down CDS to an insignificant role
 
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noksss

Well-Known member
Jan 9, 2019
366
366
singapore
I am sure the IAS lobby is simply biding its time , they dont like others getting authority

When their favourite government is formed , they will cut down CDS to an insignificant role

Have full confidence on Raga on BJP ruling for many more decades :p . With IAS is being cut down to size and corrupt thrown out now , there will be a significant cleanup in a decade time
 

Paro

Bloom17
Dec 2, 2017
1,104
919
United States
Have full confidence on Raga on BJP ruling for many more decades :p . With IAS is being cut down to size and corrupt thrown out now , there will be a significant cleanup in a decade time
There is a very high chance BJP wont see light ever again after 2029. Any fool who comes after will again trigger a move to reverse the decade.
Dont forget BJP is still not able to implement a decent Lateral entry for civil services after already finishing 6 years of rule
 
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noksss

Well-Known member
Jan 9, 2019
366
366
singapore
There is a very high chance BJP wont see light ever again after 2029. Any fool who comes after will again trigger a move to reverse the decade.
Dont forget BJP is still not able to implement a decent Lateral entry for civil services after already finishing 6 years of rule



Lateral entry :

1581605881437.png



UPSC civil services: 9 professionals selected as joint secys in biggest lateral induction into govt service | India News - Times of India

Cleanup :

The Centre has once again struck corrupt government officials and this time it has forcefully retired 22 senior officers of the rank of Superintendent.

The Central Board of Indirect Taxes & Customs (CBIC) has compulsorily retired 22 senior government officials in "public interest" on charges of corruption. In June, in a similar move, the government had retired 27 high ranking IRS officers, including 12 officers from CBDT, also on charges of corruption.

Modi govt sacks another 22 senior officials in latest crackdown on corruption
 
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Gautam

Team StratFront
Feb 16, 2019
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Tripura, NE, India
CDS General Rawat Unveils Big Ticket Military Reform Agenda

Monday, February 17, 2020
05.56 PM IST


The chief of defence staff said security challenges in Jammu and Kashmir will be handled by a dedicated theatre command in a major revamp of existing structures. Gen Rawat, talking to a group of journalists, said a new approach of staggered procurement of major military platforms like 114 fighter jets is being firmed up to address the problem of obsolescence

NEW DELHI: India will have two to five theatre commands to deal with future security challenges along the western and northern borders and the first such structure is set to be made functional by 2022, Chief of Defence Staff Gen. Bipin Rawat said on Monday, rolling out plans for big ticket military reforms.

The chief of defence staff said security challenges in Jammu and Kashmir will be handled by a dedicated theatre command in a major revamp of existing structures.

Gen Rawat, talking to a group of journalists, said a new approach of staggered procurement of major military platforms like 114 fighter jets is being firmed up to address the problem of obsolescence.

The government appointed Gen Rawat as CDS on December 31 to bring in convergence among the three services and restructure military commands to effectively deal with future security challenges.

The chief of defence staff said the proposed peninsula command, to be formed by merging the Indian Navy's eastern and western commands, is likely to take shape by end of 2021.

The tri-services command under a naval commander will have air assets as well as support of the Army, and it will take care of entire responsibility of maritime security challenge in the Indian Ocean Region.

"The security of Indian Ocean region has to be dealt with by one commander and he will not be required to get approval from Delhi for operational matters including movement of ships," said Gen. Rawat.

He said the proposed air defence command is likely to be rolled out by middle of next year and certain air assets like missiles of the Indian Army and the Navy will be part of it.

The chief of defence staff also said that government plans to have a separate training and doctrinal command modelled on similar structure in the US, while a separate command will be set up to take care of logistical requirements of the three services.

He said a team headed by Vice Chief of the Indian Air Force is conducting a study to set up the air defence command and it has been told to complete the study by March 31.

"Then orders will be issued for implementation of the study. We should have the shape of the air defence command by first half of next year," Gen Rawat said.

On the peninsula command, he said it should be rolled out by the end of next year.

About the theatre commands each of which will have responsibility specific areas of operation, Gen Rawat said the aim is to make India's first theatre command by 2022.

"We are planning to have a separate theatre command for Jammu and Kashmir which will including the IB (International Boundary) portion," said Gen Rawat.

Each of the theatre commands will have units of the Army, the Navy and the Air Force and all of them will work as a single entity looking after security challenges in a specified geographical territory under an operational commander.

At present, the Army, Navy and the Air Force have separate commands.

The CDS has a key role in ensuring optimum utilisation of allocated budget, ushering in more synergy in procurement, training and operations of the services through joint planning and integration.

The other major mandate of the CDS is to facilitate indigenisation of weapons and equipment to the maximum extent possible while formulating the overall defence acquisition plan for the three services.

Gen Rawat said the newly created Department of Military Affairs will handle revenue procurement while the capital procurement will continue to be looked after by the defence secretary.

CDS General Rawat unveils big ticket military reform agenda
 
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