Multi-Role Carrier Borne Fighter For The Indian Navy - Updates & Discussions

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Optimist

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Oct 31, 2021
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Australia
100kt Stall? Rafale proved to be able to stay maneuvrable at far far less speed....
Sadly using Picdelamirand-oil 80kt +wod numbers. You may be right with the minus -40kt, after taking off and going backwards, tail first into the water.
Google said " Launch and recovery of aircraft, A Rafale fighter jet makes a catapult launch on the flight deck, where in two seconds the jet goes from 0 to 250 kms per hour, aboard France's flagship Charles de Gaulle aircraft carrier March 28, 2011."

My maths say that 250kmh is 135 kts plus WOD. 80kt is only 55kts slower.

 

lcafanboy

Senior member
Dec 22, 2017
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Why are Indian Rickshaw mantree and Air cheif in Japan?
Unlike Pakistan whose ministers and its Jernails Bajwas who go on Begging Spree with their Begging Bowl and are used to Beizzati, Indian ministers and Air chiefs go on business increament (to boost India's GDP) and defence cooperation trip increasing the stature of India across the world.... 😊
 
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Optimist

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Oct 31, 2021
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3 years is the normal period between order and delivery. It's a bit late, but Australia has 24 half-life fa-18f updated to block lll. They say we will retire in 2030 and 12 Growler in 2035. They will go onto the second-hand market
 

Hydra

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May 19, 2020
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3 years is the normal period between order and delivery. It's a bit late, but Australia has 24 half-life fa-18f updated to block lll. They say we will retire in 2030 and 12 Growler in 2035. They will go onto the second-hand market
Typical indian mentality.
Aussies wants to retire by 2030 so that IN should purchase it in 2022-23 time frame. Wow
 

Optimist

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Oct 31, 2021
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Australia
Typical indian mentality.
Aussies wants to retire by 2030 so that IN should purchase it in 2022-23 time frame. Wow
We are moving to a full 5th gen and retiring them early, we don't run 2 fighters normally. They replaced the F-111 bomber, I don't know what we will use as a bomber post 2030, there is talk of the B-21 by the US at press conferences. I don't see it myself.
The current build FA-18ef will be flying as long as the Rafale and Eurofighter, with a near 40 year life.
 
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Jersey27

Member
Nov 26, 2021
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10
New Zealand
I think you didn't get my point. Let's assume Rafale is a sofa. Is it possible to bring it inside your home diagonally when the width of the sofa is bigger than the width of your house door? It will be stuck at the entrance of the door.
You mean that the width of the opening between the lift and the hangar is even narrower than the lift itself to an extent that the width of a Rafale positioned at an angle isn't narrow enough to make this work?
 

Jersey27

Member
Nov 26, 2021
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New Zealand
The length of the hypotenuse is equal to the square root of the sum of the squares of the other sides. So if you have 10 meter width (squared: 100) and you need to make it fit in 9 meter width (squared: 81), you need to raise one side by 4.36 meters (squared: very slighlty above 19).

That's the general principle. In practice, I do not believe that the dolly to raise one side would be practical during operations.
Not suggesting raising one side of the plane. Instead, position the aircraft in such a way that the imaginary line from the tip of the radome to the wingtip is parallel, and as close as practicably possible, to the side boundary of the elevator.
 

Jersey27

Member
Nov 26, 2021
18
10
New Zealand
Typical indian mentality.
Aussies wants to retire by 2030 so that IN should purchase it in 2022-23 time frame. Wow
I'm sure whoever proposed it, proposed it as a stopgap measure till TEDBF comes along.

It isn't that farfetched to imagine us selling IAF's older Tejas mk1s in the secondhand market in the late 2030s or gifting them to allied nations.
 

Amarante

Well-Known member
Jun 22, 2021
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La Défense, France
(…) Google said " Launch and recovery of aircraft, A Rafale fighter jet makes a catapult launch on the flight deck, where in two seconds the jet goes from 0 to 250 kms per hour, aboard France's flagship Charles de Gaulle aircraft carrier March 28, 2011."

My maths say that 250kmh is 135 kts plus WOD. 80kt is only 55kts slower.

does the French aircraft carrier have a ski-jump? g**gle is not your friend.

It is obvious that you do not know the principle of taking off from a ski jump.
(Repetition is the basis of pedagogy)

wiki: A springboard is a curved ramp that allows an aircraft to take off from a runway that is shorter than its normal take-off distance. By sending the aircraft upwards, take-off can be achieved at a speed lower than that at which the wing becomes airborne [in french: portante. i can’t find the eng. word for “portance”]
 

marich01

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Aug 17, 2022
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India

France, US tussle to sell fighter jets for India's homemade aircraft carrier​

French aircraft manufacturer Dassault Aviation has offered to equip India’s homemade aircraft carrier with Rafale jets. But the French firm faces stiff competition from America's Boeing, which is pitching F-18 fighter planes for the new vessel.


India this week commissioned the 43,000-ton INS Vikrant. The giant vessel can hold 30 aircraft and helicopters – about half the capacity of the US Navy’s Nimitz class carriers.
Vikrant will initially be equipped with Russian-origin MiG-29s borrowed from India’s other aircraft carrier INS Vikramaditya. Vikrant will then rearm with Western aircraft once the deal has been approved by the government.
"As of now, there is no one else in the race except Boeing and Dassault,” one official told RFI of India’s four-year quest for 57 dual-role combat jets for its two aircraft carriers.
India bought 45 MiG-29s in installments starting 2011 and, nine years later, it cleared the import of 21 additional units and ordered the modernisation of 59 of the multi-role jets.

The trouble with MiGs​

Captain Rajat Kumar, who leads INS Vikrant’s air wing, has reservations about the MiG-29s that will come on board his carrier, powered by four gas turbines that can pump out 88 megawatts of power.
“The MiG-29 is a large aircraft – it was designed by the Russians and it is quite challenging to land on a deck,” Kumar told media on board the new carrier that cost 2.52b euros and took 20 years to build.
National auditors have said the ageing MiGs suffer from engine failures and other “operational deficiencies”.
Military officials told RFI that 26 Western jets would eventually operate from the 860-foot long INS Vikrant, which will commence flight tests in November and continue until mid-2023.

Cordial air war between allies​

In May, Boeing sent two F-18s to display the jet’s capability at a naval base in India’s seaside state of Goa in the latest pitch to sell the twin-engine plane to the world’s second largest arms importer.
“The Super Hornet Block III has been built for carrier aircraft operations and it is the fighter that the US Navy depends on for its operations,” Salil Gupte, president of Boeing’s Indian chapter, told a news conference in August.
“The Super Hornet we are offering to the Indian Navy has the most advanced and critical capability. The fighter will outpace current threats,” said Steve Parker, another Boeing executive, adding the firm can deliver the jets in three years.
Executives from American firms like General Electric, Raytheon and Norththrop Gurmman involved in the F-18 project have also been visiting India in efforts to sell the plane.

France fights back​

France too sent the naval variant of its Rafale aircraft for shore-based testing at the Goa facility in June last year and then again in January. The company says its craft meets all requirements of the Indian navy.
The jury is out but several aviation experts favour the French product saying the Indian Air Force was “extremely satisfied” with 36 Rafales it purchased for almost eight billion Euros in a 2016 deal with Dassault Aviation.
“Indian pilots are flying operational sorties on them and so it will be easy to adapt to its deck-based variant,” an official said of Rafale-M, which is deployed on the French navy’s Charles de Gaulle aircraft carrier.
But the Rafale deal kicked off a firestorm in India where opposition politicians alleged bribes exchanged hands to clinch the government-to-government contract behind closed doors.
Meanwhile, several admirals have said India needed a third aircraft carrier given its vast coastline but the government says two will be sufficient.
“The commissioning of the Indian aircraft carrier is an assurance to friendly foreign countries that we will be able to assure collective security,” Defence Minister Rajnath Singh said during INS Vikrant’s flag-off.

 
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Bon Plan

Senior member
Dec 1, 2017
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Sadly using Picdelamirand-oil 80kt +wod numbers. You may be right with the minus -40kt, after taking off and going backwards, tail first into the water.
Google said " Launch and recovery of aircraft, A Rafale fighter jet makes a catapult launch on the flight deck, where in two seconds the jet goes from 0 to 250 kms per hour, aboard France's flagship Charles de Gaulle aircraft carrier March 28, 2011."

My maths say that 250kmh is 135 kts plus WOD. 80kt is only 55kts slower.

Flying at 100° AoA or -40kt is never made at 100 feet....
And it was just to show how the fly by wire is mastered by Dassault.
The Cobra figure for exemple is absolutely of a no use in real combat : you are a perfect slow moving target in the sky, so a perfect target for a WVR missile or a skilled gun fire.

France, US tussle to sell fighter jets for India's homemade aircraft carrier​



It's the last possible customer for SH18 : Boeing is making hard dumping. A good occasion for India to bargain.
The 12 months is a reasonable time period, if we inked the deal for FA18 SH today, it will take minimum 1 year to start delivering the product.

@vstol Jockey
for 2nd hand yes. Not for brand new one. 36 months is the classical lead time delivery.
 

Optimist

Active member
Oct 31, 2021
512
239
Australia
does the French aircraft carrier have a ski-jump? g**gle is not your friend.

It is obvious that you do not know the principle of taking off from a ski jump.
(Repetition is the basis of pedagogy)

wiki: A springboard is a curved ramp that allows an aircraft to take off from a runway that is shorter than its normal take-off distance. By sending the aircraft upwards, take-off can be achieved at a speed lower than that at which the wing becomes airborne [in french: portante. i can’t find the eng. word for “portance”]
Rafale 'too slow' stall speed is 100kt, A2A configuration. Heavier is more drag, less lift. There has to be a safe air speed buffer and I doubt it be 80kt deck speed and 27kt WOD. WOD is also not fixed and is affected by true wind speed and direction.
 
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Lolwa

Senior member
Feb 6, 2020
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Delhi
I have said it many times. Even in the worst case scenario, USA will still sell everything to Pakistan which it may to India, if Pakistan pays for it. And if the relationship improves a bit, then even reduce prices or give CSF or something in that order.

We should therefore be very prudent in what we do and we we don't with the US.
You need to buy American loyalty they are no different than the Russians in that regard
Why are Indian Rickshaw mantree and Air cheif in Japan?
Most likely tech sharing for subs and amca. But mostly joint training so that japanese can deal with the Chinese sukhois
 
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Amarante

Well-Known member
Jun 22, 2021
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382
La Défense, France
(…)WOD is also not fixed and is affected by true wind speed and direction.
During takeoffs and deckings, the boat always sail the opposite of wind direction, so the aircraft (the lift) benefits from the real wind+the relative wind due to the speed of the boat.

… And where did you get this “100kt stall speed”, please?
 

Optimist

Active member
Oct 31, 2021
512
239
Australia
During takeoffs and deckings, the boat always sail the opposite of wind direction, so the aircraft (the lift) benefits from the real wind+the relative wind due to the speed of the boat.

… And where did you get this “100kt stall speed”, please?
Wind direction varies and moves quickly, it's not fixed. It's also not always possible to sail into the wind, because of the sea state is one reason. It obviously can affect WOD speed. There is a reason they practice deck landings with a following wind. The last example I read was the QE carrier

Rafale HUD 100kt 'too slow' stall warning, as pointed out by Ats
 

vstol Jockey

Professional
Dec 1, 2017
6,216
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New Delhi
During takeoffs and deckings, the boat always sail the opposite of wind direction, so the aircraft (the lift) benefits from the real wind+the relative wind due to the speed of the boat.

… And where did you get this “100kt stall speed”, please?
I have been going thru this thread for sometime and so need to put certain things in proper perspective.

The WOD required for launch performance is the maximum speed the ship can attain this ensures that even in zero wind conditions, the limiting WOD is available for Launch. Like for Indian navy, it is 28 kts.

The calculations shared by @pic-del-amirand were correct.

The aircraft when launched is never restricted to its stall speed but a speed which is about 15% higher than the stall speed for the given configuration called the Take Off safety speed. There is a difference between clean power off stall speed and clean power on stall speed and with increase in load it goes up.

The launch performnace of a twin engined fighter is not calcaulated with both engines operating but with one engine failing during launch and that live engine pushig the aircraft to the take off safety speed. For this we assume that all external loads are jettisoned from the aircraft within 2 seconds of engine failure and its take off configuration w.r.t falps/slats and undercart are undisturbed or the undercart is in the process of being retracted.

This speed is further restricted by the limits of rolling and pitching of the ship as during launch, the deck may actually being pitching down and this parameter for IN is 2*+/- and 3* in roll. So your exit angle maybe anything from 12* to 16* at the top of skiramp as the skiramp angle is 14*.

When the aircraft goes on the ramp, we assume that the accelaration is maintained and it happens also as we talk of velocity. But the load increase on the wheels causes the oleos to compress further and after launch, the wheels suddenly extend downwards which require restrainers which you must have seen in N-LCA as well. When we take off from ground, the pressure from the oleos is released in a gradual manner but it is opposite of it when you do a Ski Ramp launch. The pilots can undergo upto 2Gs while going off the ramp as you go up in a circular motion over the ramp.

In a CAT launch, we assume a height loss of 10 feet as the aircraft transitions from ground effect to non ground effect after exiting the deck but Indian Navy has a restriction that the take off safety speed must be achieved without loss of height. Which means, the aircraft must reach the take off safety speed by the time it reaches the top of launch trajectory. But Chinese allow for aircraft to drop back to the exit height to recover. This restriction of Indian Navy halves the time available for accelaration and that has resulted in reducing the load carried by the aircraft. This has probably come from Sea Harriers wherein we were supposed to transition out to nozzles fully aft with a residual rate of climb of 200 feet/minute. At exit we used to hit about 800ft/minute climb rate which used to reduce as we used to nozzle out and we used to exit the ramp and hit 18* bar on HUD.

For landing performance, Indian Navy has put a limit of WOD of 20 kts. Why so, is beyond me and I even questioned them and they were not able to answer it. If a ship can generate 28 kts WOD in nil wind conditions, it can do so for landing as well.

The landing performance is always calculated for the worst case scenerio which results in highest landing speed and that is usually for the failure of Flaps/slats or other control problems. Plus the loads are what is called the minimum bring back load as we have limited ammo onbaord the ship and we can't keep dumping them at sea to save the aircraft.

Once again the landing speed as calculated for landing on deck is diiferent from how it is calculated over land. We use a speed called Vps=velocity poweron stall at 1G for any given configuration and this peed is lower than the speed for landing on shore. The shore landing speed is Vs1g= velocity stall at 1G condition. This speed is increased by a multiple 1.05 to arrive at approach speed. Plus we have 3.5* glide slope on the carrier approach while it can be 2.5-3.25* for shore. This higher glide slope angle increase the rate of descent, reduces the power requirement for approach and as a result the componant of thrust adding to the lift, given by the formula T x sin x alpha. The touchdown speed and loads on the each gear are calculated based on the this speed with an addtional 2 kts for the accelaration which the aicraft will achieve when it opens max thrust prior to wire engagement and touch down.
Wind direction varies and moves quickly, it's not fixed. It's also not always possible to sail into the wind, because of the sea state is one reason. It obviously can affect WOD speed. There is a reason they practice deck landings with a following wind. The last example I read was the QE carrier

Rafale HUD 100kt 'too slow' stall warning, as pointed out by Ats
In high sea state, we always sail the ship 90* to the waves so winds are always head on. Ships have much better sea control in pitching than in rolling. Incase of gusting winds, the lowest value is used as the WOD for launch parameters calculation. We man the aircraft and do our checks and start up and the launch time is announced, just prior to launch, the carrier and the screen change station to Foxcorpn or flying course and launch is cleared. The launch course is given to the pilot before launch and he feeds those parameters to his flight management system/ Mission computers plus the aircraft gyros are aligned with ships gyros and the PPS=present and future position of the ship is given.
 
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