Multi-Role Carrier Borne Fighter For The Indian Navy - Updates & Discussions

ghostwhowalks

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IAF will order more LCa MK1As and IN will most likely go for F-18SH.
if the F-18 order is in lieu of the F-16 deal, Im all for it. the SH is custom designed to be a carrier aircraft, not a land based bird modified for carrier ops. The F-16 deal would be a disaster for India, so if MoD/GoI is looking to have the IAF equipped with Su30, Rafale (at least 90 should be procured) and LCA (at least 200) and the Navy being equipped with Mig 29Ks and F18, then this will be a very potent air arm for the country. Whilst there may be some logistics issues, but sufficient numbers will bring economies of scale and we will not be at the mercy of one country in the event of an emergency.
 

vstol Jockey

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Rafale M can take off even from Vikramaditya easily at full load.
No sir it does not. IN stipulates that the aircraft must reach its target take off safety speed by top of the trajectory with positive rate of climb. Now the calculations for the safety speed are based on 90% of Clmax value for calculating stall speed, thrust reduction for ISA+15*C condition, further reduction of thrust for ECS and fuel tank pressurisation, further reduction for engine degradation over a period of time plus a safety margin to the safety speed to cater for gusting winds and deck pitch and roll. based on these parameters we can safely assume that Rafale-M may not even qualify for Vikky.
 

Picdelamirand-oil

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French Rafale Fighters to Deploy on Carrier USS George H.W. Bush This Spring
By: Ben Werner
January 10, 2018 4:50 PM • Updated: January 10, 2018 5:36 PM

French navy Rafale Marine aircraft from the aircraft carrier FS Charles De Gaulle (R91) fly in formation above the flight deck of the aircraft carrier USS Dwight D. Eisenhower (CVN-69) on Dec. 8, 2017. US Navy Photo
ARLINGTON, Va. – France is sending 350 sailors and naval aviators to deploy with a U.S. Navy aircraft carrier this spring as their nuclear-powered carrier finishes scheduled maintenance, French officials told USNI News.
The April to May deployment will occur just before France’s aircraft carrier FS Charles de Gaulle (R91) is expected to complete a major maintenance period which started in 2015. The aircrews will do carrier qualifications aboard USS George H.W. Bush (CVN-77), but the intent is to accomplish more than qualifications or cross-deck operations, Capt. Jean-Emmanuel Roux de Luze, French Naval Attaché to the U.S. told USNI News.
“We want to demonstrate our ability to integrate with U.S. military services,” Roux de Luze said. “We want to show we do maintenance, demonstrate we can load weapons.”
French Navy Dassault Rafale M fighters and Northop Grumman E-2C Hawkeye aircraft will at first fly with U.S. airwings out of Naval Air Station Oceana, in Virginia Beach. French sailors will work with their U.S. counterparts maintaining the aircraft, Rouz de Luze said. The unspecified French forces will then board Bush and operate as part of the air wing.
The agreement to send French aircraft, crews, and sailors to the U.S. was first announced in December, when U.S. Navy Chief of Naval Operations Adm. John Richardson met in Paris with his French counterpart French Navy Chief of Staff Adm. Christophe Prazuck, first reported by website Navy Recognition.

A Sailor guides an F-1 Rafale, attached to the French aircraft carrier Charles de Gaulle, to a catapult for launch on the flight deck of the aircraft carrier USS Harry S. Truman (CVN-75) in 2014. US Navy Photo
While speaking at the Surface Navy Association’s International Navies Luncheon Wednesday, Rouz de Luze, said joint operations build trust among navies by demonstrating each can work with the other. With the U.S. Navy, he said the technology used, procedures, communications equipment are all basically the same.
“Today we are 95 percent interoperable,” Rouz de Luze said. “Our concerns in our navy is in 10 years, in 15 years will we be able to work like that.”
The U.S. Navy, though, in its push to ensure it is always technologically ahead of any near-peers, is the leader in developing new systems. Rouz de Luze said militarily, the U.S. Navy can go alone.
“Due to its size and power, the US Navy does not really need us and not really need help of other navies,” Rouz de Luze said.
But politically, Rouz de Luze said the U.S. needs to be part of a coalition or NATO operation because doing so give legitimacy to an action. For everyone else, Rouz de Luze said coalitions are necessary for both political and military.

A Rafale aircraft, attached to the French aircraft carrier Charles de Gaulle, prepares to launch from the flight deck of the aircraft carrier USS Harry S. Truman (CVN-75) during carrier qualificaion integration in 2014. US Navy Photo
“The French Navy, we know in the future we will work with other navies, so you need to know how to operate with other navies,” Rouz de Luze said.
The French have been an active contributor to the anti-ISIS coalition air strikes via the French military’s Opération Chammal since 2014.
In 2015, the French deployed de Gaulle shortly following the deadly ISIS attacks on the offices of the satirical magazine Charlie Hebdo in Paris. The carrier deployed on two other occassions to the Middle East in support of the anti-ISIS mission.

French Rafale Fighters to Deploy on Carrier USS George H.W. Bush This Spring
 
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Picdelamirand-oil

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No sir it does not. IN stipulates that the aircraft must reach its target take off safety speed by top of the trajectory with positive rate of climb. Now the calculations for the safety speed are based on 90% of Clmax value for calculating stall speed, thrust reduction for ISA+15*C condition, further reduction of thrust for ECS and fuel tank pressurisation, further reduction for engine degradation over a period of time plus a safety margin to the safety speed to cater for gusting winds and deck pitch and roll. based on these parameters we can safely assume that Rafale-M may not even qualify for Vikky.
No problems, Clmax on Rafale could be very high due to Canards. You want to calculate Rafale stall speed? :giggle:
Look at 0:37
 
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randomradio

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No problems, Clmax on Rafale could be very high due to Canards. You want to calculate Rafale stall speed? :giggle:

There is a very, very good chance that the GoI is looking to make a political deal with the Americans using the SH considering their difficulty at managing the same with the F-16 for the IAF.

The IN is looking at jets that can be integrated fully with the Quad Alliance fleet, which means, no Mig-29s. So both aircraft should be on equal terms. May the cheapest aircraft win.
 
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vstol Jockey

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No problems, Clmax on Rafale could be very high due to Canards. You want to calculate Rafale stall speed? :giggle:
Look at 0:37
Air shows are done with minimum required fuel and lowest possible weight. Deck launch calculations are done for max fuel and highest possible load. and that is where Rafale-M will lose out. you need to take into account Indian conditions which are hot compared to europe.
 

AbRaj

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No sir it does not. IN stipulates that the aircraft must reach its target take off safety speed by top of the trajectory with positive rate of climb. Now the calculations for the safety speed are based on 90% of Clmax value for calculating stall speed, thrust reduction for ISA+15*C condition, further reduction of thrust for ECS and fuel tank pressurisation, further reduction for engine degradation over a period of time plus a safety margin to the safety speed to cater for gusting winds and deck pitch and roll. based on these parameters we can safely assume that Rafale-M may not even qualify for Vikky.
SH need totally new set of armaments and infrastructure in india which would be highly costly.
 
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randomradio

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The cheapest in LCC will be Rafale.

I know. And considering all the possibilities, the LCC factor will play the biggest part. But that's only if the tender survives.

The problem is the govt is not happy with the lack of competitors. For both SE MII and MRCBF. Too many hurdles for both tenders.
 

randomradio

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SH need totally new set of armaments and infrastructure in india which would be highly costly.

It's the same for the navy with respect to Rafale. The navy does not operate anything that is compatible with Rafale or SH. But Rafale's weapons are way better than what's on the SH.
 

vstol Jockey

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Rafale M - 4 / 5

The Rafale M F3R is the latest version to be inducted in 2018 in French services, it does not come with conformal fuel tanks so the range increment based on internal fuel won't be significant. Rafale carries less fuel internally compared to Advanced Super Hornet, but could carry 3 external fuel tanks without losing much of it's kinematics. The M F3R would be come up with Meteor missiles.

Combat Radius Specifications:

With three tanks, four MICA AAMs, and twelve 1,000 Ib bombs = 1,100 km.

With three tanks, four MICA AAMs, and four 500 Ib GBU-12 LGBs = 1,480 km.

Combat Air Patrol : More than 2 hours Rafale M with six AAMs and three 1,250L tanks = 185 km away from the carrier.

With three tanks, four MICA AAMs and four Meteor AAMs = 1,155 km.
Rafale M flight performance
Absolutely unrealistic configuration considering that Rafale has only five heavy pylons of which three are going to be used up by D/Ts. where will you load 12x1000lbs bombs?
 

randomradio

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We are already spending so much for weapons and infrastructure for rafale in India.
SH will only duplicate that cost and some,unnecessarily.

IAF's infra and weapons won't be shared with IN. IN will have to pay for everything all over again.

The only thing common between them is the OEM. So more numbers will reduce the price for supporting the aircraft and weapons, that's about it.
 
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AbRaj

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IAF's infra and weapons won't be shared with IN. IN will have to pay for everything all over again.

The only thing common between them is the OEM. So more numbers will reduce the price for supporting the aircraft and weapons, that's about it.
If there is a overhaul depot as DRAL is planning, it can definitely be shared among various forces and so is possible assembly lines. Also supply chain upto various extent is shaired so the cost will be lesser.Weapons and others common parts in emergency too can be shared.


USA is very prone to delay and block arms sales to customers in order to make them submit to their demands.
 

Bon Plan

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Rafale's weapons are way better than what's on the SH.
I'm a strong Rafale supporter, but I don't think we can say that !
The AM 39 exocet has only a range of 70km // Harpoon more than 120Km and another long range missile to come.
No dedicated anti radar missile on Rafale.

AASM Hammer is a nice weapon but not ordered so far by India.
Meteor... of course !

The weaponery of SH18 is far more deeper...
 
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No problems, Clmax on Rafale could be very high due to Canards. You want to calculate Rafale stall speed? :giggle:
Look at 0:37
Air shows are done with minimum required fuel and lowest possible weight. Deck launch calculations are done for max fuel and highest possible load. and that is where Rafale-M will lose out. you need to take into account Indian conditions which are hot compared to europe.

F-18SH have better low speed flight characteristic compared to Rafale-M at MTOW. The only question is, can the 'M' meet Navy's minimum requirements, especially sink rate after ramp exit at max payload.
 

randomradio

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