Multi-Role Carrier Borne Fighter For The Indian Navy - Updates & Discussions

What should we select?


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Aurora

Well-Known member
May 18, 2020
382
263
India
F/A-18 was made for the USAF. It's the jet that lost to the F-16. Then the navy which was operating the super expensive F-14 chose the F/A-18 and modified it for carriers.
Yes but we are talking about growlers which came much later than F18s and were never offered to USAF.
EW business jets and Growler operate from pretty much the same range. from the target. Both work outside SAM rings. Only the SEAD/DEAD fighter jet goes inside theS SAM ring.
Question is of capability. Even if USN doesn't use growlers as an escort jammers they could perform that role as the carrier body of the system is a fighter jet. A business jet would never be able to perform that role.
 

Hydra

Senior member
May 19, 2020
2,913
1,384
Mumbai
RCS of Rafale is 0.1. Whereas RCS of F15 is 25 which Boeing has managed to reduce to 3-4 in ex version AFAIK. That is why Rafales give us decisive BVR edge against PLAAF.
And yes Rafales can deal with J20s as there RCS is lower than J20.
If you are sending rafale in clean formations, then definitely its useful. But the moment u attach weapins, its no longer low rcs aircraft.
If rafale can detect j20,then f15,su35,f18 can also detect j20.
 

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
14,983
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India
Rafale Spectra is an excellent system but it is more of a self protection jammer and has very limited capability to provide jamming for other strike elements.

Our SPECTRA, the IAF version, will be able to jam across the entire relevant spectrum. Which is why we are getting low and mid band jamming with our version through ISE.

Also, the Growler and Rafale capabilities are complementary. While Growler provides standoff jamming, Rafale provides escort, standin and penetrating jamming. However due to the more advanced capabilities of SPECTRA, the air force would prefer the enemy is not alerted through standoff jamming, hence the Growler will become a liability rather than a force multiplier when it's actually used together with the Rafale.

Rafale doesn't need to provide jamming to other strike elements, it can do the job by itself. Only 2 or 4 Rafale are needed to do the job of 8-12 older gen aircraft when it comes to SEAD/DEAD. 2 Rafale can provide top cover and intelligence, 2 Rafale can move in, destroy a SAM site and move out, the top cover aircraft can perform BDA after, all this without alerting the enemy of their presence which the Growler will definitely succeed in doing long before the mission has even begun.

This is what Gen Mike Hostage said about the Growler:
“But in the first moments of a conflict I’m not sending Growlers or F-16s or F-15Es anywhere close to that environment, so now I’m going to have to put my fifth gen in there and that’s where that radar cross-section and the exchange of the kill chain is so critical. You’re not going to get a Growler close up to help in the first hours and days of the conflict, so I’m going to be relying on that stealth to open the door,” Hostage says.

If the USAF's Air Combat Command doesn't believe Growler is a first day of war aircraft, then it's going to be a waste of time and money to acquire what is obviously an outdated concept.

Lastly, there's the issue of downgrades. Whatever we get will definitely not be the gold standard.
 

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
14,983
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India
But F18 is dealing with HAL only right?

Boeing will deal with HAL for MRFA production. But for everything else it will be the private sector.
My emphasis was on bigger RCS and less maneuverablilty of F15s. J20, Su35 and J11Ds would have a significant advantage in BVR combat over F15s due to their lower RCS.

Everything relatively modern in PLAAF inventory will be superior to the F-15EX+Aim-120D combo.
 
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randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
14,983
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It's an EW attack platform for carrier base operations, business jet based EW cannot operate from an AC.
Also it can be used for IAF too,since it can go inside enemy airspace just like any other fighter,it can carry its own BVR missiles.
And,pls don't forget the fact that Growler is the only aircraft that mad an F22 kill in BVR ranges in a simulated air exercise. No other aircraft achieved it so far.

Dude, try and keep up. Vstol is proposing the Growler for the IAF.

Also, Growler isn't capable of operating like a fighter jet.
 

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
14,983
10,956
India
Yes but we are talking about growlers which came much later than F18s and were never offered to USAF.

Why were they not offered to the USAF? Very strange.

Question is of capability. Even if USN doesn't use growlers as an escort jammers they could perform that role as the carrier body of the system is a fighter jet. A business jet would never be able to perform that role.

Nope. You carry that much outside, you are nothing more than a transport aircraft.
 

Aurora

Well-Known member
May 18, 2020
382
263
India
If you are sending rafale in clean formations, then definitely its useful. But the moment u attach weapins, its no longer low rcs aircraft.
If rafale can detect j20,then f15,su35,f18 can also detect j20.
Spectra is exactly for that. It enables Rafale to maintain low RCS signature in loaded configuration too which is superior than everything in PLAAF inventory and it's MRFA competitors.
Why were they not offered to the USAF? Very strange.
Because USAF didn't need a carrier borne stand off jammer.
Nope. You carry that much outside, you are nothing more than a transport aircraft.
I don't think so. Su 30s carry much more outside than that.
 
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randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
14,983
10,956
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Because USAF didn't need a carrier borne stand off jammer.

Not due to that reason. The USAF had the F-22, which was a far superior SEAD/DEAD aircraft than what the Growler offered.

I don't think so. Su 30s carry much more outside than that.

Not at all. Weapons are designed based on how performance is affected based on the mission. For the SEAD/DEAD mission, fighter jets carry paylaods that are suitable for the role without drastically compromising performance.

But when it comes to the Growler, it's no different than a business jet. The only way it can survive is if it unloads its entire payload and run away, but they would rather not risk it is such a manner in the first place, too expensive, too many secrets, which is why it doesn't participate in the strike itself. It's used no different than a business jet, which is the reason why all air forces use business jets in the first place, far superior EW performance on a business jet.

The USN would also use a business jet if it could be launched off a carrier.

The Growler was actually a downgrade compared to the Prowler. The Prowler had 40% greater range and had 4 operators, the most crucial aspects of an EW aircraft. The ony advantage the Growler brings to the table is a slightly higher cruise speed. A business jet has an advantage in all three parameters.

Lastly, the Growler cannot match the range requirements of future aircraft. It's already outdated and within 10 years it will become completely obsolete.
 

Lolwa

Senior member
Feb 6, 2020
1,613
1,025
Delhi
Everything relatively modern in PLAAF inventory will be superior to the F-15EX+Aim-120D combo.
Interestingly Boeing could integrate the meteor on the f15EX.


If Boeing has a tie-up still and the f15EX boasts an open systems architecture (don't understand the term entirely) it could easily integrate the meteor and be more effective than the rafale in bvr
 

Lolwa

Senior member
Feb 6, 2020
1,613
1,025
Delhi
But when it comes to the Growler, it's no different than a business jet
I disagree the growler can be used in offensive operations against rival fighters in a bvr environment and can single handedly do sead/dead operations. A group of growlers will effectively make the entire enemy ad sitting ducks. Plus agm 88 HARM is the most effective and proven anti radiation munition in the market right now. Only our ngarm is better and by then even the Americans will come up with a replacement..
 
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randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
14,983
10,956
India
Interestingly Boeing could integrate the meteor on the f15EX.


If Boeing has a tie-up still and the f15EX boasts an open systems architecture (don't understand the term entirely) it could easily integrate the meteor and be more effective than the rafale in bvr

For most of the Rafale's life, most western aircraft always had superior range than the Rafale due to the difference between Aim-120C7 and MICA, but none of them could actually demonstrate superiority in BVR.

Forgot to add, the article you posted is from 1999. US jets will enver get the Meteor, as per the Europeans.

I disagree the growler can be used in offensive operations against rival fighters in a bvr environment and can single handedly do sead/dead operations. A group of growlers will effectively make the entire enemy ad sitting ducks. Plus agm 88 HARM is the most effective and proven anti radiation munition in the market right now. Only our ngarm is better and by then even the Americans will come up with a replacement..

Maybe you can then explain why it has never been done so.

All modern ARMs are good. Otherwise they wouldn't even be put into service.
 

Killbot

Active member
Jun 3, 2019
324
146
Bangalore
57, definitely not. 20-30 , real possibility there. Everything depends upon what either the SH or Rafale M can prove.

TEDBF is for IAC2 when that happens.
Shouldn't that be *if* that happens. And can either fighter (MRCBF) operate at full capacity from a ski jump AC?