Mirage 2000H, MiG-29UPG, Jaguar DARIN III - Medium Multirole Aircraft of IAF

randomradio

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CBU105,thats really an attraction. None of our aircraft other than Jaguar can carry it at the moment. I dont know why Tejas is not configuring to carry cbu 105.

Requires a Raytheon supplied Munitions Control Unit.
If we cannot afford to use ONLY stand off weapons , then it means that
We will also need to use Dumb bombs and LGBs

Now the question is how to drop such weapons

If such weapons are safely dropped by Low level flights , then Jaguar is still useful

The Cold Start is all about Shallow incursions by Mechanised forces

They will need close air support

Bombing can be done from low altitude with dumb bombs as well, it requires flying directly over the target. But this is the next phase of the air campaign, not in the first one or two phases where PGMs are going to be very important.
 

Hydra

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Requires a Raytheon supplied Munitions Control Unit.
I know that, its impossible on MKI & almost impossible on french bird too. But i think its possible with tejas, there wont be political obstruction to do it since we are gonna sign Beca agreement with USA this month.
 
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randomradio

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I know that, its impossible on MKI & almost impossible on french bird too. But i think its possible with tejas, there wont be political obstruction to do it since we are gonna sign Beca agreement with USA this month.

Yeah, there's no issue with integrating the MCU on to the LCA. But they need to see if they can fit it inside the jet, and also if there's a need for it in the first place, since we do not really need foreign weapons on the LCA in the near future.
 

Hydra

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Yeah, there's no issue with integrating the MCU on to the LCA. But they need to see if they can fit it inside the jet, and also if there's a need for it in the first place, since we do not really need foreign weapons on the LCA in the near future.
I dont think we have a cbu105 type weapon program in house.
 

Ashwin

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suryakiran

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I wonder though, would you fly on 2 MKI's or 8-12 Jags in the same strike package. jags at extended range have to cut thier payload almost by 1/2 to 1/3rd.

Best would be to move the Jags to the ANC. Hand them over to the IN for 'visiting' friendlies. Lowest cost irritant to the Chinese. Fix them with EW to go sniffing in the region via friendly air bases. IN gets a 1 squadrons operational in Andaman. Deploy 1 in Vietnam. Keep 1 squadron in mainland.

And (read in Russel Peter's voice) "Just for fun" move 1 squadron to Afghanistan.
 

_Anonymous_

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Jaguars or its makers haven't wronged me in any way, because every time I speak about it it seems that I have a personal axe to grind.

@Falcon CAS for IBG's is absolutely important, but which platform would make the most sense is the question, and with littening III pods and massive payload on tap along with it's extended loiter time; there is nothing that comes close to MKI in bang for the buck, the drawback being it will remain with the IAF. Think of an MKI that works like a fullback.

Coming back to Jags, they were envisaged to be low-level deep penetration strike aircraft with secondary nuclear delivery capability. They do have remarkable endurance and are simple machines to work on. I don't think there is much of scope for its primary role of low-level strike roles with large coverage of Medium-range sams, in the immediate theater. Now for CAS, yes it can be used, but I think its payload is a bit of misnomer and I do not think it can carry 4.5 tons as is usually referred to with usable range. If you want to utilize it's endurance, it becomes more of a 1 ton capable strike platform.
For the roles, it can run, They are already employed in the Maritime patrol role and the rest of the fleet can be repurposed to do the same. They will work great with two AShm, and two CCM's and three drop tanks. Run them in coastlines and they will perform brilliantly.

The idea of having it as a bomb truck in a strike package sometimes feels right but, it's not a very useful truck either. So the other use could be a dedicated EW unit, where it's endurance can come in handy.

Retiring them before time wouldn't be the worst deal. This one is a bit of Praveen Amre of Indian lineup. I'm sure Praveen Amre's fans wouldn't take to kindly to it, but you get the point.

Finally there is always target drone, or even unmanned weaponised drones. I have long wished for a Mi21 armed unmanned drone for combat ue.


Best would be to move the Jags to the ANC. Hand them over to the IN for 'visiting' friendlies. Lowest cost irritant to the Chinese. Fix them with EW to go sniffing in the region via friendly air bases. IN gets a 1 squadrons operational in Andaman. Deploy 1 in Vietnam. Keep 1 squadron in mainland.

And (read in Russel Peter's voice) "Just for fun" move 1 squadron to Afghanistan.


The concept of converting the Jaguars to an unmanned drone is intriguing & ought to be explored. The thought of basing the Jaguars in ANC is also novel as is the concept of retooling it into an exclusive EW aircraft.

Frankly it's been so long that till Milspec brought up the point, I'd almost forgotten that back in the 80's , 90's & possibly in the first decade of the 21st century, the Jaguars were our platform of choice for gravity N bombs before younger & more capable aircraft replaced it.

Retooling it into an unmanned drone & exploring other concepts of the Jag Max viz Wingman, etc by HAL as displayed in AI-2019 ought to be explored as a precursor & testbed for technologies meant to go into the AMCA Mk-2. I'd love to see such a drone undertaking CAS if not DP&S missions preferably with the F-125 Honeywell engine or equivalent or better still a desi alternative.
 

STEPHEN COHEN

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Given the Kinks and Bends of India Pakistan Border Jaguars can be very useful while Flying PARALLEL to the border and making incursions , bomb the target and make a quick right turn
Back into India

The Long Rajasthan , Punjab and Jammu borders are full of bends and turns

They can take off from Rajasthan , Bomb targets in Shakargarh Sector and Land in Pathankot

Similarly Taking off from Pathankot and bombing targets in Sialkot Akhnoor sector before landing

There will be plenty of targets within 30 km of the Border
 

randomradio

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Best would be to move the Jags to the ANC. Hand them over to the IN for 'visiting' friendlies. Lowest cost irritant to the Chinese. Fix them with EW to go sniffing in the region via friendly air bases. IN gets a 1 squadrons operational in Andaman. Deploy 1 in Vietnam. Keep 1 squadron in mainland.

And (read in Russel Peter's voice) "Just for fun" move 1 squadron to Afghanistan.

That will empty three large bases though.
Given the Kinks and Bends of India Pakistan Border Jaguars can be very useful while Flying PARALLEL to the border and making incursions , bomb the target and make a quick right turn
Back into India

The Long Rajasthan , Punjab and Jammu borders are full of bends and turns

They can take off from Rajasthan , Bomb targets in Shakargarh Sector and Land in Pathankot

Similarly Taking off from Pathankot and bombing targets in Sialkot Akhnoor sector before landing

There will be plenty of targets within 30 km of the Border

That can't be done. Pilots need many hours long briefing before engaging targets. Landing in Pathankot would mean a significant waste of a sortie since it has to make it back to home base.
 

STEPHEN COHEN

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That will empty three large bases though.


That can't be done. Pilots need many hours long briefing before engaging targets. Landing in Pathankot would mean a significant waste of a sortie since it has to make it back to home base.

But you do realise that Land Conflict will Not be evenly spread out

It can and will be concentrated in a Few sectors And which then will also lead to a Concentration of Air power in those areas

For example if Pakistan Army makes a Strong attack on Jammu Area to cut it off from Rest of India then we will have to divert IAF planes from other places

In fact on Feb 27 , Srinagar Airbase alone could not handle the 30 odd PAF package , So fighters were asked to take off from Punjab

By the Way Recent Interviews of Shiv Aroor with Retired Mirage and Mig 25 pilots on their Kargil misions , tell the same thing ie Fighters taking off from one place but Landing elsewhere after their missions

Nothing new about it
 

suryakiran

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That will empty three large bases though.

Yes, am talking about post replacement scenario. Replacing them with Tejas Mk1A for now. When the medium weight comes in, move the Mk1A deployed here for interception roles. If we keep looking at long term and no medium term, we will fall short.
 

suryakiran

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That's far into the future. By then both LCA Mk2 and MRFA will have completed inductions and even AMCA Mk2 will have started coming in to replace the Jaguars.

While, I hope what you wish comes true, I seriously doubt on any of the above coming in the promised time frame. Don't expect any of the above to be available before 2030. 2030 is also being optimistic for the AMCA.

MRFA is going to be another ckup. I have a simple explanation for all of this. Save your a$$ syndrome. Modi wants to appear clean. IAF wants to appear clean. MoD wants to appear clean. Pappu wants Modi to be dirty and himself to appear clean. We selected an airplane after one of the finest evaluations. Re-negotiate with the vendor, if required and close the deal. But in our need to 'appear' clean what takes a hit is the operational readiness, resulting in disgusting statements like, "If we had this, then it would be this."

The other mistake we keep making is predicting on the basis of existing technology. Without including strides in tech over the next ten years, the timelines are unrealistic to say the least.

Expect the IAF to ask for adding/changing tech in the plane, which will push timelines. This is a given.
 

randomradio

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While, I hope what you wish comes true, I seriously doubt on any of the above coming in the promised time frame. Don't expect any of the above to be available before 2030. 2030 is also being optimistic for the AMCA.

MRFA is going to be another ckup. I have a simple explanation for all of this. Save your a$$ syndrome. Modi wants to appear clean. IAF wants to appear clean. MoD wants to appear clean. Pappu wants Modi to be dirty and himself to appear clean. We selected an airplane after one of the finest evaluations. Re-negotiate with the vendor, if required and close the deal. But in our need to 'appear' clean what takes a hit is the operational readiness, resulting in disgusting statements like, "If we had this, then it would be this."

The other mistake we keep making is predicting on the basis of existing technology. Without including strides in tech over the next ten years, the timelines are unrealistic to say the least.

Expect the IAF to ask for adding/changing tech in the plane, which will push timelines. This is a given.

I'm thinking along the lines of 2035, since that's when Jaguar is expected to begin its phase out. Nothing much is going to happen before 2030 when it comes to phasing out jets. Only 2 old Jaguar squadrons will leave service by then, leaving 4 until 2042.

MRFA was definitely messed up. The govt did consider handing over a contract for 90 Rafales last year, and then backtracked due to the negative press led by RaGa. Plus the IAF wanted new jets through a tender instead of handing over the contract due to the large amount of time that had elapsed since the first tender. I suppose the IAF plans to get more advanced jets through MRFA while focusing on getting 2+2 squadrons of Rafale F3R in the meantime.

Induction is happening for three eras of tech, one is for predictable technologies that have been battle-tested or been in service for long, for example 4.5th gen jets like LCA Mk2 and Rafale F3R that use what's considered cutting edge today. The second one is to bring in cutting edge capabilities 5-10 years down the line like Rafale F4.2 that can take us through the 2030s and the third is for exotic tech like AMCA Mk2 for the following decade and can take us through the 2040s. So the IAF's induction plans are always well-thought out. It's just that bureaucratic apathy and financial troubles keep those plans from fructifying within predictable timelines.
 

Bon Plan

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If we cannot afford to use ONLY stand off weapons , then it means that
We will also need to use Dumb bombs and LGBs

Now the question is how to drop such weapons

If such weapons are safely dropped by Low level flights , then Jaguar is still useful

The Cold Start is all about Shallow incursions by Mechanised forces

They will need close air support
Jag can't be used, for the pilots sake, as a entry first tactical jet. It will be a suicide.
But after the first days, when the opposition become lighter, why not. A kind of second wave jet.
 
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STEPHEN COHEN

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Jag can't be used, for the pilots sake, as a entry first tactical jet. It will be a suicide.
But after the first days, when the opposition become lighter, why not. A kind of second wave jet.

We have a very long border with Pakistan -- 3500 KM

And Any future Air Land conflict will be Short and Very Intense , Maximum 5 days

We have to carry out more than 5000 Sorties in first 72 Hours , this is what was officially revealed in 2018 Air Exercises

So All assets will need to be used , including Jaguars
 

A Person

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I think we need french permission to do that, hope customized rafale could be carrying it.
It's mostly American permission that you will need. Did you need British permission to integrate them to the Jaguar?

And if you ask the Americans while you have aircraft procurement projects, they will refuse because they'll see it as a incentive to buy one of their aircraft instead of what the IAF wants. So keep them on the Jaguar for the time being, and look for integration on other platforms in, say, 2035 or so.