Made in Pakistan

[The Deterrent]

I have enough material to prove what I wrote. And you are 100% wrong. You tested the cold device in 1983 and your bomb design was tested in China in 1985 which flopped. You had no bomb till 1993. And even that design was given to you by China. I hope ypou know what is needed to make a nuke bomb.

*contd. from here: Air Battle over Kashmir : MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 *
Please provide the said material, I'd be glad to see it.

1. No, the first successful cold device design was tested in 1984 by Pakistan. I'm not sure how familiar you are with hydrodynamic testing, but usually once a 'successful' cold device test is conducted, it validates the design's functionality to a large extent. All that is left then is to replace the core with actual fissile material. However that design was not fighter or missile deliverable, but Zia threatened GoI nevertheless.

2. No, the Chinese did not test any nuclear weapon in 1985. They even halted the testing for 30 months in 1985.
SAGE Journals: Your gateway to world-class journal research

3. Yes, Pakistan might not have had fighter/missile deliverable bombs till 1993 (I cannot elaborate on the exact year when it did). But that does not means that Pakistan didn't have larger devices, capable of being delivered by an escorted transporter, by 1993. As point 1 suggests, Pakistan had a functional device design by 1984.

4. As I said in my response, China did give the CHIC-4 design to Pakistan. That specific design weighed a massive 1290kg, however, was simple to implement and easy to scale. From that basic design, Pakistan evolved the present inventory. IAEA recovered designs for a <500kg device from the Libyans, that should tell a lot about how far Pakistan had come by that time.

My point was that your timelines and 'facts' were way off, and the way you confidently almost brag about what you say is unbecoming of you. Having a tag does not gives you the right to misinform, and there's no reason to get tacky when your narrative is challenged.

I believe I have had a chat with the deterrent long time back on it (when I was new at PDF).

The CHIC-4 design link to Pakistan NWP is based on CIA intelligence, non-disclosed interviews etc...as with everything regarding nuclear weapons proliferation, there is little smoking gun stuff (which tend to happen only when you disarm a country like was done with Libya and attempted with Iran) as to where the original designs etc came from officially.

More on CHIC-4 and Pakistan, can just be googled using "CHIC-4 Pakistan" as search terms etc....can find material like this:

SAGE Journals: Your gateway to world-class journal research

Precise details about Pakistan’s nuclear warheads are not publically known, but its initial warhead design was most likely based on an HEU fission implosion configuration. It is generally believed that Beijing provided Pakistani nuclear scientist A. Q. Khan with blueprints for the uranium implosion device that China detonated on October 27, 1966 (the so-called CHIC-4 test/design). It is also suspected that on May 26, 1990 China tested a Pakistani derivative of the CHIC-4 at its Lop Nor test site, with a yield in the 10 to 12 kiloton (kt) range.3 That yield estimate accords with recorded yields of Pakistan’s 1998 nuclear tests, which are somewhere between 5 and 12 kt.

https://www.usnews.com/news/world/a...like-pakistan-north-korea-build-nuclear-bombs

Why , as you say in the book, did the Chinese give the technology to Pakistan?


Pakistan can be explained by a balance of power: India was China's enemy and Pakistan was India's enemy. The Chinese did a massive training of Pakistani scientists, (just like the Russians had done for them) brought them to China for lectures, even gave them the design of the CHIC-4 device, which was a weapon that was easy to build a model for export. There is evidence that A.Q. Khan used Chinese designs in his nuclear designs. Notes from those lectures later turned up in Libya, for instance. And the Chinese did similar things for the Saudis, North Koreans, and the Algerians.

Did the Chinese further assist in the Pakistan program?

Under Pakistani president Benazir Bhutto, the country built its first functioning nuclear weapon. We believe that during Bhutto's term in office, the People's Republic of China tested Pakistan's first bomb for her in 1990.There are numerous reasons why we believe this to be true, including the design of the weapon and information gathered from discussions with Chinese nuclear experts. That's why the Pakistanis were so quick to respond to the Indian nuclear tests in 1998. It only took them two weeks and three days. When the Soviet Union took the United States by surprise with a test in 1961, it took the U.S. seventeen days to prepare and test, a device that had been on hand for years. The Pakistani response makes it clear that the gadget tested in May 1998 was a carefully engineered device in which they had great confidence.

I agree with you (and IIRC, did the last time as well on the topic of CHIC-4). It is also possible that in 1990 (NOT 1985), the Chinese may have tested a Pakistani scaled upgrade of the CHIC-4. Regarding confidence in the device design, in fact Pakistan had already commenced production of the deliverable design and had a single-digit operational inventory before the 1998 tests. Regarding the quick response to Indian tests, PAEC had prepared the test sites in Balochistan years before, in anticipation of such an event, since the window of response was expected to close soon.

China did provide Pakistan the building blocks to get started with the development of a strategic nuclear arsenal, but it didn't do anything unusual (reference France/Israel, US/UK, USSR/PRC), and it stopped afterwards (as far as crucial components are concerned). After the 90s 'start-up', Pakistan did almost everything on its own. There's a reason why you don't see a DF-21 lookalike in Pakistani inventory.

 

[vstol Jockey]

*contd. from here: Air Battle over Kashmir : MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 *
Please provide the said material, I'd be glad to see it.

1. No, the first successful cold device design was tested in 1984 by Pakistan. I'm not sure how familiar you are with hydrodynamic testing, but usually once a 'successful' cold device test is conducted, it validates the design's functionality to a large extent. All that is left then is to replace the core with actual fissile material. However that design was not fighter or missile deliverable, but Zia threatened GoI nevertheless.

2. No, the Chinese did not test any nuclear weapon in 1985. They even halted the testing for 30 months in 1985.
SAGE Journals: Your gateway to world-class journal research

3. Yes, Pakistan might not have had fighter/missile deliverable bombs till 1993 (I cannot elaborate on the exact year when it did). But that does not means that Pakistan didn't have larger devices, capable of being delivered by an escorted transporter, by 1993. As point 1 suggests, Pakistan had a functional device design by 1984.

4. As I said in my response, China did give the CHIC-4 design to Pakistan. That specific design weighed a massive 1290kg, however, was simple to implement and easy to scale. From that basic design, Pakistan evolved the present inventory. IAEA recovered designs for a <500kg device from the Libyans, that should tell a lot about how far Pakistan had come by that time.

My point was that your timelines and 'facts' were way off, and the way you confidently almost brag about what you say is unbecoming of you. Having a tag does not gives you the right to misinform, and there's no reason to get tacky when your narrative is challenged.


I agree with you (and IIRC, did the last time as well on the topic of CHIC-4). It is also possible that in 1990 (NOT 1985), the Chinese may have tested a Pakistani scaled upgrade of the CHIC-4. Regarding confidence in the device design, in fact Pakistan had already commenced production of the deliverable design and had a single-digit operational inventory before the 1998 tests. Regarding the quick response to Indian tests, PAEC had prepared the test sites in Balochistan years before, in anticipation of such an event, since the window of response was expected to close soon.

China did provide Pakistan the building blocks to get started with the development of a strategic nuclear arsenal, but it didn't do anything unusual (reference France/Israel, US/UK, USSR/PRC), and it stopped afterwards (as far as crucial components are concerned). After the 90s 'start-up', Pakistan did almost everything on its own. There's a reason why you don't see a DF-21 lookalike in Pakistani inventory.

It is good to see that you have agreed that you had done cold test in 1984 and had no deliverable nuke untill 1993 which loosely corraborates what I had stated.
Now I want you to read up a bit more about HEU device and cold explosion and what is needed to set off a HEU core. All thru you were working on uranium enrichment. Which year did you change to Plutonium extraction and who provided the Plutonium for the 1998 blasts? Who helped you refine your design and infact gave away the design itself? Your answer to when Pakistan started Plutonium production will show you the truth.
I am sure very soon you will retarct the statement regarding my post about your nuke program.

 

[The Deterrent]

It is good to see that you have agreed that you had done cold test in 1984 and had no deliverable nuke untill 1993 which loosely corraborates what I had stated.

Don't twist your narrative to justify yourself. You staunchly held to YOUR version of the 'facts' which I challenged in this FIRST instance. Would you like me to go on? I should mention, you might have to 'loosely' agree with me. I assure you, it is not in your interest to continue down this road. I will respectfully oblige you, until someone kicks me out.

Now I want you to read up a bit more about HEU device and cold explosion and what is needed to set off a HEU core. All thru you were working on uranium enrichment. Which year did you change to Plutonium extraction and who provided the Plutonium for the 1998 blasts? Who helped you refine your design and infact gave away the design itself? Your answer to when Pakistan started Plutonium production will show you the truth.
I am sure very soon you will retarct the statement regarding my post about your nuke program.

Oh great, of course now I have to 'read up'. If you're implying that somehow the HEU-based device designs were not deliverable, and Pakistan needed a Pu-based alternative to develop a deliverable design...then you're mistaken to a pitiable extent. I wonder which devices were detonated on the 28th May then, if the 30th May test was of a single Pu device.

Instead of going off on tangents here, specify which exact statement I have to retract. And as requested before, please provide the 'enough material' you have to prove EXACTLY what you wrote.

 

[vstol Jockey]

Let me put things in better perspective for you.
We all know when and why the Pak Nuke program started and who all were roped in and how the Uranium enrichment tech was obtained. Let us go beyond that and talk about timelines. Pakistan succeeded in doing a cold test in 1983. The core of a nuke is set off by conventional explosives which must direct all the energy towards the center of the core and it must be so exploded that all the shock waves are set up at same time. this creates and concentration of extremely high temperatures which results in detonation of a fission device. This is a critical tech and Pakistan aquired it in 1983. But the amount of explosives used was high and the device itself was too big to be of any use. The amount of Uranium needed for this device could be enriched only in 1986-87. Till then Pakistan did not even sufficient Uranium to even explode a test Nuke. This design was sent ot China for a zero yield test to just check the Uranium core design. This test failed and Pakistan needed to refine the design. They conducted more cold tests and finally sometime in 1993-94 they had perfected the device design with help from China. Pakistan had its first explodable device ready only in 1994. This was an HEU device.
Pakistan knew that it will take a very large effort to produce enough Uranium for large number of devices and reducing the size itself will take very longtime. Pakistan had a test reactor since late 60s called PARR-1 and that produced very small amounts of spent Uranium which could be conmverted to Plutonium. Sometime in late 70 they realised that the HEU program might not deliver so they approached China who helped them set up Khusab reactor which began operation in 1986-87 and the first lot of spent Uranium from this was extracted only in 1999-2000. So Pakistn did not have Plutonium with them at the time of 1998 nuke tests. BUT, the five devices which were tested had three subkiloton devices which were Plutonium devices. Who gave them the plutonium and the device? This is something Pakistan won't speak and China won't tell. The HEU devices tested by Pakistan were unfit to be delivered by any fighter aircraft or the Missiles. They acquired this capability only in 2002-2003. Now Pakistan Nuke program is fully Plutonium based program.

Now tell me my friend, where was I wrong in what I stated. You did not have anything even on testbed in 1987 during Brasstacks when Rajiv Gandhi got fooled by Americans that Pakistan had nukes while all our Intelligence agencies told him that Pakistan did not have anykind of nuke with them and that India must go ahead and finish off Pakistan and create independent states from it.

 

[Ankit Kumar]

Let me put things in better perspective for you.
We all know when and why the Pak Nuke program started and who all were roped in and how the Uranium enrichment tech was obtained. Let us go beyond that and talk about timelines. Pakistan succeeded in doing a cold test in 1983. The core of a nuke is set off by conventional explosives which must direct all the energy towards the center of the core and it must be so exploded that all the shock waves are set up at same time. this creates and concentration of extremely high temperatures which results in detonation of a fission device. This is a critical tech and Pakistan aquired it in 1983. But the amount of explosives used was high and the device itself was too big to be of any use. The amount of Uranium needed for this device could be enriched only in 1986-87. Till then Pakistan did not even sufficient Uranium to even explode a test Nuke. This design was sent ot China for a zero yield test to just check the Uranium core design. This test failed and Pakistan needed to refine the design. They conducted more cold tests and finally sometime in 1993-94 they had perfected the device design with help from China. Pakistan had its first explodable device ready only in 1994. This was an HEU device.
Pakistan knew that it will take a very large effort to produce enough Uranium for large number of devices and reducing the size itself will take very longtime. Pakistan had a test reactor since late 60s called PARR-1 and that produced very small amounts of spent Uranium which could be conmverted to Plutonium. Sometime in late 70 they realised that the HEU program might not deliver so they approached China who helped them set up Khusab reactor which began operation in 1986-87 and the first lot of spent Uranium from this was extracted only in 1999-2000. So Pakistn did not have Plutonium with them at the time of 1998 nuke tests. BUT, the five devices which were tested had three subkiloton devices which were Plutonium devices. Who gave them the plutonium and the device? This is something Pakistan won't speak and China won't tell. The HEU devices tested by Pakistan were unfit to be delivered by any fighter aircraft or the Missiles. They acquired this capability only in 2002-2003. Now Pakistan Nuke program is fully Plutonium based program.

Now tell me my friend, where was I wrong in what I stated. You did not have anything even on testbed in 1987 during Brasstacks when Rajiv Gandhi got fooled by Americans that Pakistan had nukes while all our Intelligence agencies told him that Pakistan did not have anykind of nuke with them and that India must go ahead and finish off Pakistan and create independent states from it.

I hope we pick up enough guts and supply Taiwan officially things which China gives to Pakistan and unofficially things which China unofficially gives to pakistan.

From Ballistic missiles to submarine designs to nukes too if required.

The real reason why this parasitic state of pakistan is alive, is china. We need to do things....

 

[Guynextdoor]

I hope we pick up enough guts and supply Taiwan officially things which China gives to Pakistan and unofficially things which China unofficially gives to pakistan.

From Ballistic missiles to submarine designs to nukes too if required.

The real reason why this parasitic state of pakistan is alive, is china. We need to do things....

That’s not how you do foreign policy. China has done many stupid things, which is why no one looks at them through the prism of global leadership. We should not make the same mistakes.

 

[The Deterrent]

Pakistan succeeded in doing a cold test in 1983. The core of a nuke is set off by conventional explosives which must direct all the energy towards the center of the core and it must be so exploded that all the shock waves are set up at same time. this creates and concentration of extremely high temperatures which results in detonation of a fission device. This is a critical tech and Pakistan aquired it in 1983.

I absolutely didn't know anything about cold aka hydrodynamic testing, thank you for increasing my knowledge
You might want to correct your post though, the temperatures have little to do with a fissile core going supercritical. It is the shock waves which compress the core to increase its density and cause it to go supercritical.

But the amount of explosives used was high and the device itself was too big to be of any use. The amount of Uranium needed for this device could be enriched only in 1986-87. Till then Pakistan did not even sufficient Uranium to even explode a test Nuke. This design was sent ot China for a zero yield test to just check the Uranium core design. This test failed and Pakistan needed to refine the design. They conducted more cold tests and finally sometime in 1993-94 they had perfected the device design with help from China. Pakistan had its first explodable device ready only in 1994. This was an HEU device.

Can we please have some evidence for this 'failed' test, except 'unnamed sources'? Why would Pakistan send a device to China to 'check' a core design, when it was already conducting AND evaluating successful cold tests on its soil of much bigger designs? And why did it take SIX years for the Pakistanis AND the Chinese to 'perfect' a design which China already had mastered?
Your 'facts' don't add up.

Pakistan knew that it will take a very large effort to produce enough Uranium for large number of devices and reducing the size itself will take very longtime. Pakistan had a test reactor since late 60s called PARR-1 and that produced very small amounts of spent Uranium which could be conmverted to Plutonium. Sometime in late 70 they realised that the HEU program might not deliver so they approached China who helped them set up Khusab reactor which began operation in 1986-87 and the first lot of spent Uranium from this was extracted only in 1999-2000. So Pakistn did not have Plutonium with them at the time of 1998 nuke tests. BUT, the five devices which were tested had three subkiloton devices which were Plutonium devices. Who gave them the plutonium and the device? This is something Pakistan won't speak and China won't tell. The HEU devices tested by Pakistan were unfit to be delivered by any fighter aircraft or the Missiles. They acquired this capability only in 2002-2003. Now Pakistan Nuke program is fully Plutonium based program.

Tch tch, seems like you didn't do your homework. ALL the 5 devices detonated on 28th May were HEU-based. The 2 main ones (claimed yields 36kt and 12kt respectively) were deliverable designs, 3 were experimental subkiloton designs. The 6th device detonated on 30th May was the only Pu-based design (claimed yield 12kt). If you did a close analysis of Pakistani warheads and accepted the statements of US officials, you'd realize that until late 2000s all deliverable Pakistani inventory was HEU-based. Pu-based devices were introduced much later. And NO, Pakistan still has the HEU-based devices in its inventory.

Now tell me my friend, where was I wrong in what I stated. You did not have anything even on testbed in 1987 during Brasstacks when Rajiv Gandhi got fooled by Americans that Pakistan had nukes while all our Intelligence agencies told him that Pakistan did not have anykind of nuke with them and that India must go ahead and finish off Pakistan and create independent states from it.

Starting from page 2, unlike you, so far I have specified each exact statement of yours which was wrong. I'm getting tired of typing 'No' again and again, it doesn't seems like you're in the mood of accepting your incorrect 'facts'. So until you can build up the courage to do so, please kindly don't bother to quote me, its a humble request to King of the jungle.

 

[vstol Jockey]

I absolutely didn't know anything about cold aka hydrodynamic testing, thank you for increasing my knowledge
You might want to correct your post though, the temperatures have little to do with a fissile core going supercritical. It is the shock waves which compress the core to increase its density and cause it to go supercritical.

I did write about shockwaves. Please read carefully. Temperature is a factor in Hydrogen Bomb. The shockwaves must all start at the same time and also travel exactly at same velocity to compress the core. Increasing density increases the temprature of not gases but also of metals. Try and hit an iron rod and touch it after that. You will find a minor increase in tyemperature due to electrons resistence increase by their movement due to compression.

Can we please have some evidence for this 'failed' test, except 'unnamed sources'? Why would Pakistan send a device to China to 'check' a core design, when it was already conducting AND evaluating successful cold tests on its soil of much bigger designs? And why did it take SIX years for the Pakistanis AND the Chinese to 'perfect' a design which China already had mastered?
Your 'facts' don't add up.

Chinese agreed to give the design only after 1992 and the device was given for Changi-1 test. Conducting a successful test and perfecting a device has miles of difference between them. it took you ten years to achieve repeatability to create a device which will explode everytime.

Starting from page 2, unlike you, so far I have specified each exact statement of yours which was wrong. I'm getting tired of typing 'No' again and again, it doesn't seems like you're in the mood of accepting your incorrect 'facts'. So until you can build up the courage to do so, please kindly don't bother to quote me, its a humble request to King of the jungle.

You need to read the books written by your own Nuke Scientists. I am quoting you from one such book about timelines. That book suddenly jumps and goes blank at times in the narrative. And that missing narrative is what I have filled in based on what was known to our RAW at the time. Do you want me to name the book or will this suffice?

 

[Nilgiri]

Let me put things in better perspective for you.
We all know when and why the Pak Nuke program started and who all were roped in and how the Uranium enrichment tech was obtained. Let us go beyond that and talk about timelines. Pakistan succeeded in doing a cold test in 1983. The core of a nuke is set off by conventional explosives which must direct all the energy towards the center of the core and it must be so exploded that all the shock waves are set up at same time. this creates and concentration of extremely high temperatures which results in detonation of a fission device. This is a critical tech and Pakistan aquired it in 1983. But the amount of explosives used was high and the device itself was too big to be of any use. The amount of Uranium needed for this device could be enriched only in 1986-87. Till then Pakistan did not even sufficient Uranium to even explode a test Nuke. This design was sent ot China for a zero yield test to just check the Uranium core design. This test failed and Pakistan needed to refine the design. They conducted more cold tests and finally sometime in 1993-94 they had perfected the device design with help from China. Pakistan had its first explodable device ready only in 1994. This was an HEU device.
Pakistan knew that it will take a very large effort to produce enough Uranium for large number of devices and reducing the size itself will take very longtime. Pakistan had a test reactor since late 60s called PARR-1 and that produced very small amounts of spent Uranium which could be conmverted to Plutonium. Sometime in late 70 they realised that the HEU program might not deliver so they approached China who helped them set up Khusab reactor which began operation in 1986-87 and the first lot of spent Uranium from this was extracted only in 1999-2000. So Pakistn did not have Plutonium with them at the time of 1998 nuke tests. BUT, the five devices which were tested had three subkiloton devices which were Plutonium devices. Who gave them the plutonium and the device? This is something Pakistan won't speak and China won't tell. The HEU devices tested by Pakistan were unfit to be delivered by any fighter aircraft or the Missiles. They acquired this capability only in 2002-2003. Now Pakistan Nuke program is fully Plutonium based program.

Now tell me my friend, where was I wrong in what I stated. You did not have anything even on testbed in 1987 during Brasstacks when Rajiv Gandhi got fooled by Americans that Pakistan had nukes while all our Intelligence agencies told him that Pakistan did not have anykind of nuke with them and that India must go ahead and finish off Pakistan and create independent states from it.

I'm confused, did Pakistan have or not have implosion design for uranium in the 90s?

As far as I am aware no one tested a gun design (ala hiroshima) because its just waste of fissile material to do so (given design is very rudimentary - the Americans didn't test the hiroshima bomb and no one else really did either).

As for plutonium feedstock...you simply have the neutron source (i.e a neutron rich reactor of some sort)....you actually introduce (new) uranium 238 you want to convert to Pu-239 and you remove it rather quickly (so you limit the amount of Pu-240 contamination that is generated over time). I suppose you mean the Uranium 238 is the "spent" uranium from the earlier refining for HEU? You can also just use raw uranium metal pellets without any refinement....since uranium is vast majority U-238. CIRUS reactor for example just used natural uranium fuel. Though I suppose your timelime you talk about regards the production of fissile U-235 for use in the reactor itself in Pakistan (since they didn't go heavy water route) ?

Anyway creating fissile plutonium once you have a reactor set up for it is not all that difficult....in fact its the easy part. Creating the implosion design is the hard part....that is where CHIC-4 comes in (even tho its HEU based initially, it provided lot of detailed insight how to go about implosion - which the Chinese themselves learned from the Soviets).

 

[Nilgiri]

I interchanged enrichment and refinement a cpl times in post above, please bear with me.

 

[The Deterrent]

I did write about shockwaves. Please read carefully. Temperature is a factor in Hydrogen Bomb. The shockwaves must all start at the same time and also travel exactly at same velocity to compress the core. Increasing density increases the temprature of not gases but also of metals. Try and hit an iron rod and touch it after that. You will find a minor increase in tyemperature due to electrons resistence increase by their movement due to compression.

I thought we were talking about a fission bomb.
"Increase in temperature due to electrons resistance increase by their movement due to compression"? I'm unable to parse this statement.
In case of fusion devices, the causality goes like this: increasing temperature using a fission bomb causes hydrogen atoms to move faster resulting in fusion.

Chinese agreed to give the design only after 1992 and the device was given for Changi-1 test. Conducting a successful test and perfecting a device has miles of difference between them. it took you ten years to achieve repeatability to create a device which will explode everytime.

Again, your statements are repeatedly self-contradictory, kindly go through your previous posts and set your story straight. I'm tired of correcting you again and again, so just go through my previous posts starting from post # 21.

You need to read the books written by your own Nuke Scientists. I am quoting you from one such book about timelines. That book suddenly jumps and goes blank at times in the narrative. And that missing narrative is what I have filled in based on what was known to our RAW at the time. Do you want me to name the book or will this suffice?

Let me guess, it has something to do with grass?

 

[Hydra]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1351907112415354881

 

[RISING SUN]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1511950049416445956

 

[R73 FTW]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1511950049416445956

https://twitter.com/x/status/1511955482269089792

Wait since when does porkis have MIRVs??