Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning and F-22 'Raptor' : News & Discussion

BMD

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Should be like this:
EPAWSS is equipped with advanced radio frequency (RF) electronic countermeasures (ECM), enabling deeper penetration against modern integrated air defense systems and providing rapid response capabilities designed to protect the aircrew.
Find a statement saying that the ASQ-239's only methods of jamming are via TRD and radar.
 

randomradio

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Find a statement saying that the ASQ-239's only methods of jamming are via TRD and radar.

You do realise the burden of proof rests in your hands, right?

At this time, all proof points towards the radar and TRD only.

The American concept of stealth is actually quite simple.
-Use EA from outside the detection range of SAMs using radar.
-Use stealth to penetrate. Zero emissions during penetration, so no jamming.
-If things go south, reel out the TRD, try to jam the radar and/or missile while you either escape or accomplish the mission. This way the TRD overwhelms enemy radar with overflow, while the jet maintains stealth from a distance.

The Israelis added a jamming pod to the Adir because the jet itself lacks jamming capability.

The new system will also allow the I.D.F to install Israeli-built datalinks and defensive avionics systems such as radar-jamming pods. An official told Aviation Week the IAF expects the advantages of the F-35’s low radar cross section will be “good for five to ten years” before adversaries develop countermeasures.

Thus, the I.D.F particularly values the flexibility to install “plug-and-play” defensive countermeasures such as jamming pods as they become relevant and available.


You don't need an external jamming pod if there was internal capability. This is common sense.
 
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randomradio

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Do you really think it's customary to advertise a negative feature?

BMD needs written proof from LockMart saying that the F-35 cannot actually fly under water. As long as such proof doesn't exist, then the jet can indeed fly under water.

I recall this story about an American woman who locks the steering wheel of her trailer home while driving fast on a highway in order to make herself some food at the back. She was later arrested and her defence was the owner's manual didn't say she was not supposed to do that. BMD is now aggressively competing with her.
 
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BMD

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Dec 4, 2017
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You do realise the burden of proof rests in your hands, right?

At this time, all proof points towards the radar and TRD only.

The American concept of stealth is actually quite simple.
-Use EA from outside the detection range of SAMs using radar.
-Use stealth to penetrate. Zero emissions during penetration, so no jamming.
-If things go south, reel out the TRD, try to jam the radar and/or missile while you either escape or accomplish the mission. This way the TRD overwhelms enemy radar with overflow, while the jet maintains stealth from a distance.

The Israelis added a jamming pod to the Adir because the jet itself lacks jamming capability.

The new system will also allow the I.D.F to install Israeli-built datalinks and defensive avionics systems such as radar-jamming pods. An official told Aviation Week the IAF expects the advantages of the F-35’s low radar cross section will be “good for five to ten years” before adversaries develop countermeasures.

Thus, the I.D.F particularly values the flexibility to install “plug-and-play” defensive countermeasures such as jamming pods as they become relevant and available.


You don't need an external jamming pod if there was internal capability. This is common sense.
Nope, the radar is made by Northrop Grumman, the radar, according to you, does not do EA yet. I linked the BAE SYSTEMS ASQ-239 product brochure, which refers solely to the ASQ-239 and it says that it has jamming. My work is done.

Always active, AN/ASQ-239 provides all-aspect, broadband protection to help the F-35 reach well-defended targets and suppress enemy radars.
Sounds a lot like that deeper penetration you were harping on about.
 

randomradio

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Nope, the radar is made by Northrop Grumman, the radar, according to you, does not do EA yet. I linked the BAE SYSTEMS ASQ-239 product brochure, which refers solely to the ASQ-239 and it says that it has jamming. My work is done.


Sounds a lot like that deeper penetration you were harping on about.

Some day they may become more specific, let's see. Until then the Israelis will use their external pod to do the same.
 

BMD

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They do, but not for the F-35.

The one going on the F-35 is a single pod meant for self-protection and standin EA.
They wanted an independent EW system that they understood, and were able to customise, so what? Can you even provide evidence of what exact system they're using?
 

BMD

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As a counter to your logic, Israel are adding a lot of their own stuff that duplicates the function of the original stuff.


Currently, the IAF operates 20 F-35 (Adir) and uses them in combat. One of the key capabilities of the F-35 is its capability to absorb electronic signals from radars and air defense systems and to quickly classify them, geolocate them, and display them to the pilot. Then the aircraft can distribute that data to other combatants.

The critical data is collected by the aircraft’s passive antennas embedded in the F-35’s edges. They feed the signals information to the jet’s computers. Using interferometers, the slightest time delay between when a signal hits one antenna compared to another, azimuth and range can be defined and target-quality coordinates created on where the threatening radio frequency emission is coming from.

The already very advanced ELINT system of the F-35 is going to be further upgraded by the IAF, working with Israel’s defense companies.

Since the stealth fighter aircraft first arrived in Israel, some locally-made systems have been partially tested in different scenarios, but the test aircraft will allow these new systems to be put completely through their paces.

The test aircraft will enable each of the Israeli F-35s to function as a “Target Generator” for all Israeli ground and naval forces thanks to what some have described as an Israeli-built command-and-control system.

The Israeli companies that are developing systems for the IAF’s F-35’s are reluctant to provide details about the systems under development.

Eitan Ben Eliyahu, former commander of the IAF, told Breaking Defense that the F-35 will bring two main capabilities to the Israeli air force’s existing ones: “The stealth of course is the obvious one and it is crucial in an area where different forces deploy advanced anti-aircraft systems.

“The second capability is the one that allows this aircraft to receive and distribute all kinds of combat data from a long list of sensors. This,” Ben Eliyahu said, “is very important for an air force that is performing combat missions almost on a daily basis.”



So just their own version of what's there but made in-house. Like I said, you make rash assumptions and extrapolate on facts way to much to create non-facts.
 

randomradio

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Nov 30, 2017
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As a counter to your logic, Israel are adding a lot of their own stuff that duplicates the function of the original stuff.


Currently, the IAF operates 20 F-35 (Adir) and uses them in combat. One of the key capabilities of the F-35 is its capability to absorb electronic signals from radars and air defense systems and to quickly classify them, geolocate them, and display them to the pilot. Then the aircraft can distribute that data to other combatants.

The critical data is collected by the aircraft’s passive antennas embedded in the F-35’s edges. They feed the signals information to the jet’s computers. Using interferometers, the slightest time delay between when a signal hits one antenna compared to another, azimuth and range can be defined and target-quality coordinates created on where the threatening radio frequency emission is coming from.

The already very advanced ELINT system of the F-35 is going to be further upgraded by the IAF, working with Israel’s defense companies.

Since the stealth fighter aircraft first arrived in Israel, some locally-made systems have been partially tested in different scenarios, but the test aircraft will allow these new systems to be put completely through their paces.

The test aircraft will enable each of the Israeli F-35s to function as a “Target Generator” for all Israeli ground and naval forces thanks to what some have described as an Israeli-built command-and-control system.

The Israeli companies that are developing systems for the IAF’s F-35’s are reluctant to provide details about the systems under development.

Eitan Ben Eliyahu, former commander of the IAF, told Breaking Defense that the F-35 will bring two main capabilities to the Israeli air force’s existing ones: “The stealth of course is the obvious one and it is crucial in an area where different forces deploy advanced anti-aircraft systems.

“The second capability is the one that allows this aircraft to receive and distribute all kinds of combat data from a long list of sensors. This,” Ben Eliyahu said, “is very important for an air force that is performing combat missions almost on a daily basis.”



So just their own version of what's there but made in-house. Like I said, you make rash assumptions and extrapolate on facts way to much to create non-facts.

In order to use their own EW suite, datalink and integration with their IADS, they needed their own C&C. There's nothing special about this. You seem to have come across something that most people have known for years now. They are paying $400M for all this. All these systems are standalone in comparison to the F-35's core systems. They are standalone because the Americans did not allow the source codes needed to modify the F-35's core avionics.

The exact ECM capability is not known, but what is known is it is meant for defence against enemy radars and other emitters when stealth fails. The Israelis believe their EW capability is superior to what's on the F-35, hence the need to introduce their own tech for the purpose of survivability. They believe that the American system of "stealth only" is not enough and that they need an active defence capability on the aircraft. Which is why the focus on stealth working only for the next 5-10 years resulted in them saying jamming will become more important later on, hence the modification. And they said this back in 2013.

Lastly, everything you have quoted has nothing to do with what we are discussing. Everything in the article has to do with RWR, ESM and networking.
 

BMD

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In order to use their own EW suite, datalink and integration with their IADS, they needed their own C&C. There's nothing special about this. You seem to have come across something that most people have known for years now. They are paying $400M for all this. All these systems are standalone in comparison to the F-35's core systems. They are standalone because the Americans did not allow the source codes needed to modify the F-35's core avionics.

The exact ECM capability is not known, but what is known is it is meant for defence against enemy radars and other emitters when stealth fails. The Israelis believe their EW capability is superior to what's on the F-35, hence the need to introduce their own tech for the purpose of survivability. They believe that the American system of "stealth only" is not enough and that they need an active defence capability on the aircraft. Which is why the focus on stealth working only for the next 5-10 years resulted in them saying jamming will become more important later on, hence the modification. And they said this back in 2013.

Lastly, everything you have quoted has nothing to do with what we are discussing. Everything in the article has to do with RWR, ESM and networking.
Right, so Israel adding something doesn't mean that the F-35 didn't already perform that function, hence destroying your premise.
 

randomradio

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Right, so Israel adding something doesn't mean that the F-35 didn't already perform that function, hence destroying your premise.

No. What I said was whatever is on the F-35 for jamming is not enough for the Israelis.

The Israelis literally said they need the ECM pod when stealth is compromised. So they believe that even the people in the ME are capable of defeating the F-35's stealth capabilities, and whatever's onboard is definitely not enough to counter that.

If we assume the Americans are actually lying about stealth and the F-35 actually carries a full suite of jamming capabilities internally on the F-35, as per your claims, it still simply isn't enough for the Israelis. If that's not a red flag to you, then nothing is. 'Cause they actually believe the F-35 is better off with an external pod compromising stealth than rely on the internal EW suite. Seriously, you think that's not a big enough red flag? They would rather have EW than stealth? You are seriously saying that? Wouldn't it be more logical to believe the F-35 simply lacks an internal jamming capability, hence why the Israelis added it using a pod?

Maybe I am wrong and you are right, doesn't really make a difference to the whole scheme of things, then F-35 does come with a full suite internally. But the Israelis think it's a turd. Now try and wrap that around your head.
 

BMD

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No. What I said was whatever is on the F-35 for jamming is not enough for the Israelis.

The Israelis literally said they need the ECM pod when stealth is compromised. So they believe that even the people in the ME are capable of defeating the F-35's stealth capabilities, and whatever's onboard is definitely not enough to counter that.

If we assume the Americans are actually lying about stealth and the F-35 actually carries a full suite of jamming capabilities internally on the F-35, as per your claims, it still simply isn't enough for the Israelis. If that's not a red flag to you, then nothing is. 'Cause they actually believe the F-35 is better off with an external pod compromising stealth than rely on the internal EW suite. Seriously, you think that's not a big enough red flag? They would rather have EW than stealth? You are seriously saying that? Wouldn't it be more logical to believe the F-35 simply lacks an internal jamming capability, hence why the Israelis added it using a pod?

Maybe I am wrong and you are right, doesn't really make a difference to the whole scheme of things, then F-35 does come with a full suite internally. But the Israelis think it's a turd. Now try and wrap that around your head.
Israel are putting their own stuff on because they want to keep certain things in-house. Whether the aircraft needs stealth more than extra jamming power depends on the mission, they're fitting NGJ for the same reason. It's a good job they aren't putting on their own wings or you'd be like, "OMG, the F-35 has no wings!"

And I doubt the Palestinians are capable of defeating a Lancaster bomber never mind an F-35.
 
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randomradio

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Israel are putting their own stuff on because they want to keep certain things in-house. Whether the aircraft needs stealth more than extra jamming power depends on the mission, they're fitting NGJ for the same reason. It's a good job they aren't putting on their own wings or you'd be like, "OMG, the F-35 has no wings!"

And I doubt the Palestinians are capable of defeating a Lancaster bomber never mind an F-35.

Whatever makes you feel better. Anyway, they haven't asked for the NGJ. It's not even planned for the F-35 yet.
 

BMD

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Simple fact, that's why they're also putting on their own ESM and comms stuff, nothing to do with current capabilities. 2022-2023 according to Tom Burbage of LM.