Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning and F-22 'Raptor' : News & Discussion

lcafanboy

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F-35.....🤣🤣😂😂😜😜
 
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BMD

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I didn't realise it was Turkey complaining. Maybe they can fly their S-400 system instead.
 
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AbRaj

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I didn't realise it was Turkey complaining. Maybe they can fly their S-400 system instead.
They are literally begging US to give them the promised F35s and they are even willing to reconsider deploying of S400 is given assurances.
How much a Dictator can beg to get those F35s goddamn it
 

randomradio

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They are literally begging US to give them the promised F35s and they are even willing to reconsider deploying of S400 is given assurances.
How much a Dictator can beg to get those F35s goddamn it

With Greece getting both Rafales and F-35s, Turkey was forced into a major disadvantage overnight. Their entire air force is nothing but turkey shoot now, pun intended. ;)

They can't afford to have such a major disadvantage, and the TFX is unlikely to become available until 2035. Russia/China are a no go since they are a part of NATO. The F-35 is their only real choice to gain parity.

So begging it is.
 
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AbRaj

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And those making fun of F35 should understand one thing. It’s US Defence companies. People said same things when F16 was introduced or F18 or F15 for that matter. All of these were mediocre at best when they were launched. But they never abandoned them but improved their deficiencies one by one to the point that they are considered absolute best in their respective roles.
meanwhile Europeans and Russian designed some absolute pathbreaking designs like Mirage, Harrier,Gnat, Tornado, Jaguar etc

Have a look at some of the great concepts designed by Brits almost centuries earlier which look much closer to what US did decades later. But these countries failed to improve on these designs and just abounded the projects.

These same US companies can design and develop contemporary fighters like Typhoon and Rafale in extremely quick time if needed. Those who are designing fighters like F22, B1, B2 and F35 trio since ages must not be laughed at.
 
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AbRaj

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With Greece getting both Rafales and F-35s, Turkey was forced into a major disadvantage overnight. Their entire air force is nothing but turkey shoot now, pun intended. ;)

They can't afford to have such a major disadvantage, and the TFX is unlikely to become available until 2035. Russia/China are a no go since they are a part of NATO. The F-35 is their only real choice to gain parity.

So begging it is.
I highly doubt about prospects of TFX or whatever they call it.
The way Turks are behaving, US will not let UK help them design weapons that can potentially be used against US and NATO allies in very near future.
France is already in loggerheads with them and so is Greece, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, UAE. All are US allies. Israel’s case is doubtful though looking at Azerbaijan Armenia war. But F35 or any potential stealth fighter in the hands of lunatic like ErDogan will be a disaster to Israel too.
 
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randomradio

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And those making fun of F35 should understand one thing. It’s US Defence companies. People said same things when F16 was introduced or F18 or F15 for that matter. All of these were mediocre at best when they were launched. But they never abandoned them but improved their deficiencies one by one to the point that they are considered absolute best in their respective roles.
meanwhile Europeans and Russian designed some absolute pathbreaking designs like Mirage, Harrier,Gnat, Tornado, Jaguar etc

Have a look at some of the great concepts designed by Brits almost centuries earlier which look much closer to what US did decades later. But these countries failed to improve on these designs and just abounded the projects.

These same US companies can design and develop contemporary fighters like Typhoon and Rafale in extremely quick time if needed. Those who are designing fighters like F22, B1, B2 and F35 trio since ages must not be laughed at.

Most people haven't understood what the USAF CAS said. People are assuming the F-35 has failed but that's not the case. The F-35 was meant to be a high end equivalent jet with the costs of a low end jet, like the F-16. The F-35 is still a high end jet, but it comes with high end costs. So they only failed at managing the costs. Now the USAF plans to treat the F-35 as a high end jet and get a low end jet in a parallel process.

The F-35's costs are likely to get worse over time due to potentially reduced overall numbers, especially with the new jet eating into the program. But the F-35's capabilities itself are not in question.
 
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randomradio

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I highly doubt about prospects of TFX or whatever they call it.

Yeah. That's a grand lemon in the making. Their engine plans are highly doubtful. They may even be forced to go Russian.

The way Turks are behaving, US will not let UK help them design weapons that can potentially be used against US and NATO allies in very near future.
France is already in loggerheads with them and so is Greece, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, UAE. All are US allies. Israel’s case is doubtful though looking at Azerbaijan Armenia war. But F35 or any potential stealth fighter in the hands of lunatic like ErDogan will be a disaster to Israel too.

I think Israel had a lot to do with stopping the F-35 sale to Turkey. The S-400 seems to be the excuse.
 

AbRaj

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Most people haven't understood what the USAF CAS said. People are assuming the F-35 has failed but that's not the case. The F-35 was meant to be a high end equivalent jet with the costs of a low end jet, like the F-16. The F-35 is still a high end jet, but it comes with high end costs. So they only failed at managing the costs. Now the USAF plans to treat the F-35 as a high end jet and get a low end jet in a parallel process.

The F-35's costs are likely to get worse over time due to potentially reduced overall numbers, especially with the new jet eating into the program. But the F-35's capabilities itself are not in question.
F35 as an integrated weapon system is leaps and bounds ahead of anything else designed till today. It’s a whole different concept. Only Su57 comes somewhat close. Rafale or Typhoon as a stand-alone platform can beat F35 in training exercises no doubt but in battlefield along with all its networked sub systems of US, F35 will enable even F16/F18/F15s to knock out any other fighter without even breaking a sweat.
It’s not a fighter, it’s just a component of whole US war fighters machinery.
F22 was designed as a standalone fighter but with F35 they shifted the whole concept of fighting a air war
 

Bali78

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These same US companies can design and develop contemporary fighters like Typhoon and Rafale in extremely quick time if needed. Those who are designing fighters like F22, B1, B2 and F35 trio since ages must not be laughed at.
That's an over simplified extrapolation. Just because US companies did some great job in the past does not mean the current generation of engineers can deliver the same at the same speed. Let me give an example. The great Hoover dam was built in 1930s within 5 years, using basic machine tools available during that time and the project included building upper and lower check dams, bypass tunnels and the main dam. The actual main dam took only 2 years to build !! Now fast forward to 21st century. An arch bridge was built to bypass Hoover dam (due to the traffic jam on the dam) and it took same 5 years !! This fact was presented by the tour guide, in sarcastic manner.

A country that built tens of thousands of miles of freeways during 1960 -1980, now struggles to add an extra lane for few miles and takes years to complete. Bottomline is, the generations of Americans who built this great country are gone and current generation of Americans are pathetically inefficient and just want to enjoy the benefits of the system built by their ancestors.

The tech companies that generate trillions of $ for the American economy, are being run by immigrants pulled from all over the world. But due to American law, defense projects cannot employ immigrants and that is a major bottleneck. The shortage of engineering talent pool among Americans is only getting worse and I don't see any near term solution to that.

Another problem defense companies face is the huge compensation packages offered by tech companies. So even from the ever reducing American talent pool, they find it difficult to attract the best. Some of our best analog circuit designers started their career in defense industry and moved out due to financial reasons.

So without adequate human resources, statements like "These same US companies can design and develop contemporary fighters like Typhoon and Rafale in extremely quick time if needed." are just wishful thinking at best.
 

AbRaj

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That's an over simplified extrapolation. Just because US companies did some great job in the past does not mean the current generation of engineers can deliver the same at the same speed. Let me give an example. The great Hoover dam was built in 1930s within 5 years, using basic machine tools available during that time and the project included building upper and lower check dams, bypass tunnels and the main dam. The actual main dam took only 2 years to build !! Now fast forward to 21st century. An arch bridge was built to bypass Hoover dam (due to the traffic jam on the dam) and it took same 5 years !! This fact was presented by the tour guide, in sarcastic manner.

A country that built tens of thousands of miles of freeways during 1960 -1980, now struggles to add an extra lane for few miles and takes years to complete. Bottomline is, the generations of Americans who built this great country are gone and current generation of Americans are pathetically inefficient and just want to enjoy the benefits of the system built by their ancestors.

The tech companies that generate trillions of $ for the American economy, are being run by immigrants pulled from all over the world. But due to American law, defense projects cannot employ immigrants and that is a major bottleneck. The shortage of engineering talent pool among Americans is only getting worse and I don't see any near term solution to that.

Another problem defense companies face is the huge compensation packages offered by tech companies. So even from the ever reducing American talent pool, they find it difficult to attract the best. Some of our best analog circuit designers started their career in defense industry and moved out due to financial reasons.

So without adequate human resources, statements like "These same US companies can design and develop contemporary fighters like Typhoon and Rafale in extremely quick time if needed." are just wishful thinking at best.
Apple and oranges comparison really. Nothing related to technological deficiencies.
The prototype NASA alone develops and test is multiple times higher than all Europeans combined. Regarding manpower bottlenecks, have a look at magnitude of automation of F35 line. While Europeans still using manual labor for everything not much different than HAL.
 
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