Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning and F-22 'Raptor' : News & Discussion

Having a combined combat fleet of Rafales + F-35 is awesome. Stop this childish fighting!
GP Captain A Vinod:
the conclusion? you get an F-35 class aircraft for the price of an F-18.
There's no reason to want F-35s when you have Rafale, they don't have any more capability, they're buggy, and they're 4 times less available. But if you want a strategic agreement with the United States, this is the best way to get it.
 
GP Captain A Vinod:

There's no reason to want F-35s when you have Rafale, they don't have any more capability, they're buggy, and they're 4 times less available. But if you want a strategic agreement with the United States, this is the best way to get it.
There are certain area of air combat or SEAD/DEAD that 5th gen VLO planes will invariably enjoy certain advantages over 4++ gen planes like Rafale. That's why you are developing SCAF/FCAS too.

Having said that, if a nation has large fleet of Rafale then it has serious offensive capability is beyond doubt!
 
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There are certain area of air combat or SEAD/DEAD that 5th gen VLO planes will invariably enjoy certain advantages over 4++ gen planes like Rafale. That's why you are developing SCAF/FCAS too.
That's Lockheed marketing, it's the opposite of what GP Captain A Vinod is saying, the idea that if you put a "5th generation" label on an aircraft then that aircraft is better and above all that to get the label you need passive stealth, whereas GP Captain A Vinod seems to be quite happy with the active stealth that he has tested on the Rafale.
 
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That's Lockheed marketing, it's the opposite of what GP Captain A Vinod is saying, the idea that if you put a "5th generation" label on an aircraft then that aircraft is better and above all that to get the label you need passive stealth, whereas GP Captain A Vinod seems to be quite happy with the active stealth that he has tested on the Rafale.
Stealth is not a panacea but a solution to ensure better survivability under hostile situations. In any fight against peer level enemy you need to get your hands dirty and fight. F-35's passive stealth, better sensors and SA will give it definite advantage over Rafale. In later Blocks it may also have ACT. Though how effective ACT is going to be against modern AESA radars is yet to be seen.


F-35's biggest problem has been that LM has failed to live upto its upgrade potential. Rafale has no such weakness. But still F-35 is whole generation more advance than Rafale can't be denied. Is it better though? Only a real war can testify!
 
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Stealth is not a panacea but a solution to ensure better survivability under hostile situations. In any fight against peer level enemy you need to get your hands dirty and fight. F-35's passive stealth, better sensors and SA will give it definite advantage over Rafale. In later Blocks it may also have ACT. Though how effective ACT is going to be against modern AESA radars is yet to be seen.


F-35's biggest problem has been that LM has failed to live upto its upgrade potential. Rafale has no such weakness. But still F-35 is whole generation more advance than Rafale can't be denied. Is it better though? Only a real war can testify!
Stealth is a solution to get survivability and Rafale with better sensors, better fusion, Low Observability and active stealth is more survivable than F-35 and if you add its automatic terrain-following capabilities at very low altitude and high speed and the way it can drop AASMs, it's definitely a better vector for SEAD/DEAD than the F-35.

 
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That's why you are developing SCAF/FCAS too.
1) Stealth is now more easy to study, built and overhaul than 30 years ago.
2) Rafale, at the end, will have to be replace. It has a very strong road map to evolve until 2060, but technology are moving.
3) Rafale is quite light for a medium jet : it was studied at a time warsaw pact was in west germany ! now the battlefiled is further, so a bigger bird for the future (SCAF).
 
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1) Stealth is now more easy to study, built and overhaul than 30 years ago.
2) Rafale, at the end, will have to be replace. It has a very strong road map to evolve until 2060, but technology are moving.
3) Rafale is quite light for a medium jet : it was studied at a time warsaw pact was in west germany ! now the battlefiled is further, so a bigger bird for the future (SCAF).
Agreed👍
 
Running a non-stealth fighter as your primary air-superiority fighter until 2060? That's desperation.
Not really.
1980 built Tornado and Mirage 2000 remains potent so far. Our Mirage 2000D will always fly in 2030.
Classical radar fighters remain potent against AESA ones.
Stealth is not full time invisibility. Multistatic radars and low band radars will become standard, for exemple.
 
Yes, but as the frogs will explain in a minute. Greece has a dozen secondhand and a dozen new Rafale. So that's 24 Rafales. They are getting 40 F-35. So that means the Rafale is nearly twice as good, to a F-35
NATO ally Greece wants fifth-gen F-35 stealth fighters with the upgrades to cure past 'childhood illness'

  • Greece says it's waiting to acquire upgraded versions of the fifth-gen F-35 that'll cure past "childhood illness."
  • Its defense minister announced a sweeping overhaul of its armed forces, especially the air force.
  • Greece wants Block 4 versions of the F-35, hoping issues with the upgrade will be resolved soon.
Greece's military leadership has announced radical changes to its Armed Forces, particularly its air force, including plans to offload older combat aircraft and get new F-35 stealth jets.

But Greece isn't in a rush to acquire the advanced fifth-generation fighters, Greek Minister of Defense Nikos Dendias said, and is willing to wait for upgraded versions in hopes that "all the childhood illness," as he described it, will be cured.

In a local television interview on Monday, Dendias said Greece intends to acquire Block 4 F-35s featuring the latest upgrades, but those are still unavailable due to what officials involved in the program have described as serious concurrency problems.

"Development and production concurrency is Block 4′s most critical challenge, and we are dealing with its consequences today," F-35 program executive officer Lt. Gen. Michael Schmidt said in December.

"The F-35 [Joint Program Office], Lockheed Martin, and other industry partners have identified high risk concurrency in the F-35 Block 4 schedule, which would threaten to shut down aircraft production if development slips," he added.

The F-35 Joint Strike Fighter was recently put into full-rate production, but deliveries of the jet are currently on hold amid work on the Tech Refresh-3 elements, which allow for things like increased processing power, that are needed for the eventual Block 4 upgrades. Those later upgrades will give the F-35 the ability to carry more weapons, enhance the aircraft's targeting capacity, and improve the jet's electronic warfare capabilities.

US Air Force leadership has also highlighted the need for these significant upgrades, with Secretary Frank Kendall saying earlier this month that "we really need the TR-3 hardware and the Block 4 set of upgrades … to stay competitive."

The ongoing challenges are expected to delay Block 4 upgrades until 2029 from the original 2026 plan, Jon Ludwigson, director of contracting and national security acquisitions at the Government Accountability Office, said during a hearing last December, per Defense News.

The number of new capabilities in the Block 4 upgrades have risen from 66 to 80, and the cost of adding them has climbed from $10.6 billion to $16.5 billion.

"Some of the challenges that have emerged [with Block 4] is because they didn't have requirements, they didn't necessarily have a firm sense of what was technically achievable," Ludwigson said.

"They didn't have a strong basis for understanding how long these things were going to take. It became a bit of a journey of discovery and took time for them to figure out," he said.

Greece's plans to wait out what the defense minister called "childhood illness" in the F-35 come along with other major changes to its Armed Force, what Dendias referred to as the "biggest reform program in the history of the modern Greek state."

"We need to make some very radical changes, in the weapons systems, in the structure, in innovation – that is, in the ability to create new systems using our own capabilities – in the military service, in our own significant and motivated personnel, everything needs to change," Dendias said. "Everything needs to change in order to maintain exactly the same goal: the ability to protect our sovereignty and independence."

For the air force, that means retiring and selling a variety of aircraft, such as F-4 jets, Mirage 2000-5 planes, and Block 30 F-16s. Other aircraft will be upgraded and maintained while Greece waits to acquire Block 4 F-35s. In January, the US State Department approved a potential sale of up to 40 F-35As to Greece at a cost of $8.6 billion, a major step forward in the modernization of Greece's fighter fleet.
 
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Hey hey, I don't think it's ever going to happen: wanting an F-35 free of its teething problems, more than 20 years after development began, and thinking it's going to happen soon, is guilty optimism.
 
Hey hey, I don't think it's ever going to happen: wanting an F-35 free of its teething problems, more than 20 years after development began, and thinking it's going to happen soon, is guilty optimism.
Or when F-35 technical problems became commercial problems. Very very bad publicity in fact.
Basically they just have said "later perhap's"
 
So ChatGPT can be manipulated. Garbage in = garbage out. How French it is.
you mean these are not just a bunch of French excuse making bots already? I was sure that some of them were bots because we get the same tired 5 excuses.


Nice article : https://www.dsiac.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/2175747_STI_Document.pdf

"Canopies are generally made of monolithic or laminated acrylics and polycarbonates, whereas windshields and windows will many times incorporate glass layers or even be made of all glass layers (mission dependent). The complex curvature of canopies can make them difficult to fabricate and a variety of techniques including drape-molding, vacuum forming, etc. are used to control the shape during fabrication [1].

One of the more complex processes is that for the F-35 canopy fabricated by GKN Aerospace Transparency Systems. The acrylic and other special materials-based shell is loaded into a forming tool in a oven heated to 200°F (98°C) where the canopy forms over a span of approximately 3 days. During that time, a control system automatically adjusts clamps to control the forming process and ensure the shape remains uniform [4].

The interlayer materials include polyurethane, silicone, and other proprietary materials with tailored optical properties that are used to bond the core plies together [1]. The interlayer materials can provide additional safety features such as bird-impact resistance, pressure “failsafe” capability, and anti-ice/anti-fog systems [5]. Commercial aircraft may include other technology such as electrically dimmable window technology [1]. A list of various transparency materials for DoD jet attack, fighter, bomber and trainer aircraft is provided in Appendix A."

200°F ... mmm that's less than 108°C

@

Are you still trying this made up lie? It is worth wondering if you do the opposite of your goals here, and instead of making the French look more honest and trustworthy and helpful you look dishonest and manipulative.

as was already explained the canopies are not made or constructed in the manner in which you are telling people in an obvious lie

which is 20 more than you were trying to convince everyone, and also pokes a hole in your original theory about "buying Rafales means no need for F-35"

I think many of us understand that you are gullible, just as optimist linked us to the French speaking forum. we are not all as gullible as you are, and you are not fooling anyone, not even your own countrymen.

Greece is not getting F-35 because they have the Rafale, so F-35 is unneeded, Rafale is a big winner!

Greece is looking into f-35

Greece is going to get the F-35

Greece is getting the F-35, but its only 20 so far. <--- you are here.

Greece is getting 40 F-35s

remember your original assurance is that the Greeks would not get them. now you are claiming a victory because they are only getting 20.

i'm surprised at this point that you can even stand this anymore, and even your fellow French people are already tired...
"Operation Restore Cope"

Haw can they be perfeclty content ?
1) No bird delivered so far.

The Swiss weren't going to take delivery until 6 years after the competition which is something you likely knew but in typical fashion you ignored for the easy "here and now" excuse.

no bird delivered so far:

 
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Wait a minute.
24 Rafale ordered so far. Another batch is in the pipe.
About F35 : no firm order so far, and the 40 is a maximum. As for now a purchase of only 20 is on the table.

That means, as in UAE, that Rafale is the prefered bird.

As long as you have the UAE, I don't know why there is such bitter complaining about the Rafale losses in Europe...

its very funny watching you guys do attempt to paint losses as victories when you are clearly miserable, and slightly obsessed. I am willing to bet I could do a "software check" on your programming, and enter a list of countries where the Rafale was not chosen and you can instantly respond with your preprogrammed excuses

That's Lockheed marketing, it's the opposite of what GP Captain A Vinod is saying, the idea that if you put a "5th generation" label on an aircraft then that aircraft is better and above all that to get the label you need passive stealth, whereas GP Captain A Vinod seems to be quite happy with the active stealth that he has tested on the Rafale.

The notion of "5th genertion is marketing" has become itself a marketing label.

if the Rafale can't do it, and F-35 can, it dismissed as "Marketing," by the French cohort. the reason there has to be such a strong distinction between "Active Stealth" and "passive Stealth" is that the Rafale doesn't have "passive Stealth" which everywhere else is called "stealth" or Low observable" in more formal settings. so they had to use MARKETING to say the Rafale can do things a different way, and nullify the difference.

There is little to no recognition of "active stealth" outside France and Rafale operators. In the US and other places, such distinctions are not recognized or used. back in the old days "Active stealth" was called "jamming" or "electronic warfare" "Active Stealth" is in and of itself, MARKETING. its the attempt to play "me too!!" and rebrand something old as new. In the US there are entire units dedicated to electronic warfare, and they never use the phrase "Active stealth" because it would be considered paradoxical nonsense.

A more accurate description would be that the Rafale and the F-35 use different methods and tactics in order to accomplish their missions. not everything the F-35 does is "just marketing"

In Canada there was a very real requirement that the CF-18 replacement have a certain Radar Cross Section that met or exceeded a certain Threshold. That is not marketing, but the French cannot let such things go.
in railing against Marketing the French partake in counter-marketing, and basically then paint a false equivalency. This is typical of someone in a losing position. They can't win, so they try to say they are just like the winner. Its practically a French trademark. the second part is the notion that the F-35 can't beat the Rafale in anything so the only reason to buy them is to get in bed with the US. this again a coping mechanism, and the idea that the Rafale simply can't lose tactically, it can only lose politically.

I think Dassault in the end is not competing in markets when it comes to Europe. the french can attempt to "muddy the waters" and obfuscate as much as they want, but if everyone just like Canada, prefers the "Passive" stealth to the active kind, or doesn't trust French promises of equivalancy, etc. There really isn't that much that can be done. to summarize:

The F-35 uses Plan A.

The Rafale uses Plan B.


The market preference seems to be for Plan A. That is not marketing. its the recognition that they seem to think Plan A is superior. I tell myself that people involved in Dassault are smarter and know their jobs better than the french posters here, but again its worth wondering if the French posters here do more harm than good. The notion must always be that F-35 buyers want to be in bed with the United States, but I offer a counterproposal. They do NOT want to be in bed with France. Given my interactions with the French in this very forum, they can't admit to a single fault, and are easily mislead and sometimes outright dishonest. which is really saying something when we consider the competition is Lockheed Martin...
 
Or when F-35 technical problems became commercial problems. Very very bad publicity in fact.

at one point the French hive mind will have to come together and decide on the proper excuse narratives, because they are simply too numerous and contradictory. its interesting that "5th generation marketing" is such a sore point but at the same time you are telling us they can't get the marketing correct to the point that it is effecting sales.

Besides I thought the greeks placed an order for 20?


besides, I thought the publicity didn't matter remember? I thought people just bought F-35s no matter what to be with the United States? now you are telling us it hinges on "publicity" ??

make up your mind, I thought it was all rigged anyway, but now suddenly publicity is affecting the sale you told us would never happen?? it must be difficult keeping track of so many lies simultaneously. I wish you could see how obvious they all are, you might improve your posts that way. your canopy theory was debunked but you keep trying. Why? No one else is falling for this stupidity, and what do you hope to accomplish? Who do you think you will convince? honestly? who?
 
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so no "defeat" using the just invented standards?
In fact no F-35 for Greece due to "'childhood illness'"
from the article above :
  • Greece says it's waiting to acquire upgraded versions of the fifth-gen F-35 that'll cure past "childhood illness."
As I see that you like to be help for reading I help you for this : the important word is "waiting"
😘

And the reason why is that Greecs have big boloks when they say that after 20 years the F-35 is still a child with illness.

It's look like an other victory for the rafale.
🤣
 
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