Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning and F-22 'Raptor' : News & Discussion

Herciv

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Nov 30, 2017
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FRANCE

The F-35 is help by subventions. How many of other states have received this advantage ?
Greece has missed $2 billion.
"The case for US State Department Foreign Military Financing (FMF) grants has now been reduced to about $200 million, as Athens failed to take advantage of the window of opportunity that existed to claim up to $2 billion that was available."
 
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Innominate

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Jun 23, 2021
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GREECE – F-35 JOINT STRIKE FIGHTER CONVENTIONAL TAKE OFF AND LANDING (CTOL) AIRCRAFT​


WASHINGTON, January 26, 2024 - The State Department has made a determination approving a possible Foreign Military Sale to the Government of Greece of F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Conventional Take Off and Landing (CTOL) aircraft and related equipment for an estimated cost of $8.6 billion. The Defense Security Cooperation Agency delivered the required certification notifying Congress of this possible sale today.

The Government of Greece has requested to buy up to forty (40) F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Conventional Take Off and Landing (CTOL) aircraft; and forty-two (42) Pratt & Whitney F135-PW-100 engines (40 installed, 2 spares). Also included are AN/PYQ-10 Simple Key Loaders; KGV-135A embedded secure communications devices; Cartridge Actuated Devices/Propellant Actuated Devices (CAD/PAD); impulse cartridges, chaff, and flares; Full Mission Simulators and system trainers; electronic warfare systems and Reprogramming Lab support; logistics management and support systems; threat detection, tracking, and targeting systems; Contractor Logistics Support (CLS); classified software and software development, delivery and integration support; transportation, ferry, and refueling support; weapons containers; aircraft and munitions support and support equipment; integration and test support and equipment; aircraft engine component improvement program (CIP) support; secure communications, precision navigation, and cryptographic systems and equipment; Identification Friend or Foe (IFF) equipment; spare and repair parts, consumables, and accessories, and repair and return support; minor modifications, maintenance, and maintenance support; personnel training and training equipment; classified and unclassified publications and technical documents; warranties; and U.S. Government and engineering, technical, and logistics support services, studies, and surveys; and other related elements of logistics and program support. The estimated total cost is $8.6 billion.

This proposed sale will support the foreign policy goals and national security of the United States by improving the air capabilities and interoperability of a NATO Ally that is a force for political and economic stability in Europe.

The proposed sale will allow Greece to modernize its air force and improve Greece’s ability to provide for the defense of its airspace, contribute to NATO missions to preserve regional security and defend NATO Allies, and maintain interoperability with U.S. and NATO forces. The F-35 will offset the increasing obsolescence of other Hellenic Air Force aircraft such as the F-4 and Mirage 2000. Greece will have no difficulty absorbing these articles and services into its armed forces.

The proposed sale of this equipment and support will not alter the basic military balance in the region.

The principal contractors will be Lockheed Martin Aeronautics Company, Fort Worth, TX, and Pratt & Whitney Military Engines, East Hartford, CT. The purchaser typically requests offsets. Any offset agreement will be defined in negotiations between the purchaser and the contractor.

Implementation of this proposed sale will not require the assignment of any additional U.S. Government or contractor representatives to Greece.

There will be no adverse impact on U.S. defense readiness as a result of this proposed sale.

The description and dollar value is for the highest estimated quantity and dollar value based on initial requirements. Actual dollar value will be lower depending on final requirements, budget authority, and signed sales agreement(s), if and when concluded.

All questions regarding this proposed Foreign Military Sale should be directed to the State Department's Bureau of Political-Military Affairs, Office of Congressional and Public Affairs, [email protected]


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randomradio

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Nov 30, 2017
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India
The defense company said deliveries may slip into the third quarter after previously guiding that the so-called TR-3 version of the F-35 would start shipping in the second quarter. The Pentagon has said it won’t take the upgraded Joint Strike Fighters until issues are fully resolved with the aircraft’s largest and most sophisticated software upgrade.

I said that the slippage was 6 months every 6 months, which is verified by a slippage of 3 months after 3 months! If they don't change anything, TR3 will never be ready!

Schmidt did say it will slip beyond June.
 

randomradio

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Nov 30, 2017
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Turks must feel really stupid pissing off Uncle Sam. Maybe they can get Rafales since they usually follow nations that US says, NO F-35's FOR YOU!

The Turks are entertaining.

I wonder why Greece has capped their Rafales to mid 20's and decided to go for more F-35's? :unsure:

Don't you know? You buy less of the better jet. ;)

Anyway Greek F-35s are subsidized via FMF. So the already cheaper jet is now even cheaper for Greece, notwithstanding the fact that it's the natural successor to 150+ F-16s. And the Rafale quite easily fulfills their high performance air superiority requirements, even against the future TF-X. Like the F-22 to the F-35.
 

Hydra

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May 19, 2020
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Mumbai
The Turks are entertaining.



Don't you know? You buy less of the better jet. ;)

Anyway Greek F-35s are subsidized via FMF. So the already cheaper jet is now even cheaper for Greece, notwithstanding the fact that it's the natural successor to 150+ F-16s. And the Rafale quite easily fulfills their high performance air superiority requirements, even against the future TF-X. Like the F-22 to the F-35.
Why we cannot follow the same route? Rafale & F35/F15EX combo? Aftet all we need Jaguar replacement.
 

Innominate

Senior member
Jun 23, 2021
2,225
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California
The Turks are entertaining.



Don't you know? You buy less of the better jet. ;)

Anyway Greek F-35s are subsidized via FMF. So the already cheaper jet is now even cheaper for Greece, notwithstanding the fact that it's the natural successor to 150+ F-16s. And the Rafale quite easily fulfills their high performance air superiority requirements, even against the future TF-X. Like the F-22 to the F-35.
High performance? Rafale is a brick and slow with tanks and air to air loadout unlike F-35. :)
 

BMD

Senior member
Dec 4, 2017
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Greece to get US draft letter approving purchase of F-35 jets - sources​


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randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
19,302
14,035
India
High performance? Rafale is a brick and slow with tanks and air to air loadout unlike F-35. :)

I don't think the Greeks share that opinion. They operated 44 M2000s alongside 150+ F-16s for the same reason. It's possible they will buy more Rafales at a later date.
 

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
19,302
14,035
India
Why we cannot follow the same route? Rafale & F35/F15EX combo? Aftet all we need Jaguar replacement.

Our combo is MRFA and AMCA. Jaguar will be replaced by LCA Mk2.

F-15EX can't win MRFA, it's a generation behind the Rafale and Typhoon, while effectively costing 50+% more in terms of LCC. It won't even get shortlisted.

There are only three ways possible:
If we want F-35, at this time, it's gonna have to participate in MRFA and win.

If we want both Rafale and F-35 in large numbers, then we need to buy 36 more Rafales so Dassault can set up a production line on their own, followed by future tranche-wise orders (2-4 more squadrons) and the F-35 must win MRFA.

Alternatively, if the F-35 doesn't participate, then the Rafale must win MRFA and the IAF can buy 2-3 F-35 squadrons as stopgap.

I only find the last option as a possibility. There's also a chance the US may offer the NGAD instead, in order to compete with the Su-57 and PAK DP. They will want to offer it to Australia and, of course, Japan to end any potential foreign tie-ups of their own. If we want to operate something American, it's a good idea to buy their best stuff to compensate for attached strings.
 
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