Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning and F-22 'Raptor' : News & Discussion

Innominate

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Jun 23, 2021
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I love doing this to the clown of this forum who can't comprehend how the F-35 can deploy E-virus...

LANGLEY AFB: If you want to stop a conversation about the F-35 with a military officer or industry expert, then just start talking about its cyber or electronic warfare capabilities.

These are the capabilities that most excite the experts I’ve spoken with because they distinguish the F-35 from previous fighters, giving it what may be unprecedented abilities to confuse the enemy, attack him in new ways through electronics (think Stuxnet), and generally add enormous breadth to what we might call the plane’s conventional strike capabilities.

So I asked Air Force Gen. Mike Hostage, head of Air Combat Command here, about the F-35’s cyber capabilities, mentioning comments by former Air Force Chief of Staff Gen. Norton Schwartz several years ago about the F-35 having the “nascent capability” to attack Integrated Air Defense Systems (known to you and me as surface to air missiles) with cyber weapons.

Hostage deftly shifts the conversation each time I press for insights on the F-35’s cyber and EW. He doesn’t refuse to talk, as that would be impolite and, well, too obvious.

He starts off with what sounds like a shaggy dog story.

“When I was a youngster flying F-16s we would go fly close air support at the National Training Center for the Army,” he tells me. “They would have a large ground force: blue guys, OpFor [opposing forces], they’d go out and have big battles on the ground. And they would bring the [Close Air Support] CAS in to participate. They’d let us come in, we’d fly for 30 minutes and then they’d shoo us away because they wanted to have their force on force and if they allowed the CAS to participate during force on force it fundamentally changed the nature of the ground battle.”

Then he brings us back to the issue at hand, and mentions the Air Force’s Red Flag exercises, the pinnacle of the service’s force-on-force training: “Fast forward to today. We do Red Flag for the purpose of giving our young wingman those first 10 days of combat, or first 10 combat missions in a controlled environment because what we’ve studied over the years of conflict is the first 10 missions are where you’re most likely to lose your fleet. So if you can replicate that first 10 in a controlled environment with a very high degree of fidelity, you’ve greatly increased the probability that they’re going to survive their actual first 10 combat missions. So Red Flag is the closest we can get to real combat without actually shooting people.”

Allies are a key part of the Red Flag exercises, especially as the F-35 becomes the plane flown by most of our closest allies, from Britain to Israel to Australia and beyond. But the toughest, most realistic exercises at Red Flag occur when it’s only American pilots flying against each other.

During those Red Flag-3 exercises they integrate space and cyber weapons into the fight, including those the F-35 possesses. Those capabilities make are “so effective that we have to be very careful that in a real world scenario we don’t hurt ourselves allowing them to play.”

Then he gets back to the point at hand. “So, to answer your question, it has tremendous capability. We’re in the early stages of exploring how to get the most effectiveness out of cyber and space, but we’re integrating it into the Air Operations Center; we’re integrating it into the combat plan; and it is absolutely the way of the future. And you’re right, the AESA radar has tremendous capacity to play in that game.”

Boil all that down and it comes to this. Gen. Hostage is saying that the F-35’s cyber capabilities are so effective — combined with space assets, which are often difficult to distinguish in effect from cyber capabilities — that the planes have to stop using them so the pilots can shoot at each other.

The obvious question that arises from this is, how can a radar system also be a cyber weapon? We’ve all seen those World War II movies where the radar dish sweeps back and forth. The energy beams out, strikes the enemy plane and comes back as a blip. What makes an AESA radar special is the fact that it beams energy in digital zeroes and ones — and the beam can be focused. This allows the radar to function as both a scanning radar, a cyber weapon and an electronic warfare tool.



AESA Radar, Cyber And IADS

Here’s an excellent explanation for how we go from radio and radar and military systems that are not connected to the Internet yet remain vulnerable to hacking that I’ve cribbed from my deputy, Sydney Freedberg, from a recent piece he wrote in Breaking Defense about cyberwar. An enemy’s radios and radars are run by computers, so you can transmit signals to hack them. If the enemy’s computers are linked together then your virus can spread throughout that network. The enemy does not have to be connected to the Internet. You just need the enemy’s radios and radar to receive incoming signals – which they have to do in order to function.

So, as a former top intelligence official explained to me about two years ago, the AESA radar’s beams can throw out those zeros and ones to ANY sort of receiver. And an enemy’s radar is a receiver. His radios are receivers. Some of his electronic warfare sensors are also receivers.

But neither Hostage nor many others I spoke with were willing to be specific on the record about how effective the AESA radar, working with the aircraft’s sensors like the Distributed Aperture System and its data fusion system, will be. So the following is information culled from conversations over the last three months with a wide range of knowledgeable people inside government and the defense industry, as well as retired military and intelligence officers.

As the F-35 flies toward the Chinese coast and several hundred incoming PLAAF J-20s streak toward them in the scenario outlined in the first piece of this series, spoofing (using the enemy’s own systems to deceive him) will be a major part of our attack.

Enemy radar may well show thousands of F-35s and other aircraft heading their way, with stealth cross-sections that appear to match what the Chinese believe is the F-35’s cross section. Only a few hundred of them are real, but the Chinese can’t be certain which are which, forcing them to waste long-range missiles and forcing them to get closer to the US and allied F-35s so they can tell with greater fidelity which ones are real. The Chinese will try and use Infrared Search and Track (IRST) sensors, which have shorter ranges but provide tremendous fidelity in the right weather conditions. But that, of course, renders them more vulnerable to one sensor on the F-35 that even the plane’s critics rarely criticize, the Distributed Aperture System (DAS).

The clowns reaction after reading this.
brian-regan-derp.gif

I just ignored them so as not to be tempted again.
Lol. Oh you can't ignore when your BS is called out. You can't help it.
 
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_Anonymous_

Senior Member
Banned
Dec 4, 2017
17,189
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Mumbai
I love doing this to the clown of this forum who can't comprehend how the F-35 can deploy E-virus...

LANGLEY AFB: If you want to stop a conversation about the F-35 with a military officer or industry expert, then just start talking about its cyber or electronic warfare capabilities.

These are the capabilities that most excite the experts I’ve spoken with because they distinguish the F-35 from previous fighters, giving it what may be unprecedented abilities to confuse the enemy, attack him in new ways through electronics (think Stuxnet), and generally add enormous breadth to what we might call the plane’s conventional strike capabilities.

So I asked Air Force Gen. Mike Hostage, head of Air Combat Command here, about the F-35’s cyber capabilities, mentioning comments by former Air Force Chief of Staff Gen. Norton Schwartz several years ago about the F-35 having the “nascent capability” to attack Integrated Air Defense Systems (known to you and me as surface to air missiles) with cyber weapons.

Hostage deftly shifts the conversation each time I press for insights on the F-35’s cyber and EW. He doesn’t refuse to talk, as that would be impolite and, well, too obvious.

He starts off with what sounds like a shaggy dog story.

“When I was a youngster flying F-16s we would go fly close air support at the National Training Center for the Army,” he tells me. “They would have a large ground force: blue guys, OpFor [opposing forces], they’d go out and have big battles on the ground. And they would bring the [Close Air Support] CAS in to participate. They’d let us come in, we’d fly for 30 minutes and then they’d shoo us away because they wanted to have their force on force and if they allowed the CAS to participate during force on force it fundamentally changed the nature of the ground battle.”

Then he brings us back to the issue at hand, and mentions the Air Force’s Red Flag exercises, the pinnacle of the service’s force-on-force training: “Fast forward to today. We do Red Flag for the purpose of giving our young wingman those first 10 days of combat, or first 10 combat missions in a controlled environment because what we’ve studied over the years of conflict is the first 10 missions are where you’re most likely to lose your fleet. So if you can replicate that first 10 in a controlled environment with a very high degree of fidelity, you’ve greatly increased the probability that they’re going to survive their actual first 10 combat missions. So Red Flag is the closest we can get to real combat without actually shooting people.”

Allies are a key part of the Red Flag exercises, especially as the F-35 becomes the plane flown by most of our closest allies, from Britain to Israel to Australia and beyond. But the toughest, most realistic exercises at Red Flag occur when it’s only American pilots flying against each other.

During those Red Flag-3 exercises they integrate space and cyber weapons into the fight, including those the F-35 possesses. Those capabilities make are “so effective that we have to be very careful that in a real world scenario we don’t hurt ourselves allowing them to play.”

Then he gets back to the point at hand. “So, to answer your question, it has tremendous capability. We’re in the early stages of exploring how to get the most effectiveness out of cyber and space, but we’re integrating it into the Air Operations Center; we’re integrating it into the combat plan; and it is absolutely the way of the future. And you’re right, the AESA radar has tremendous capacity to play in that game.”

Boil all that down and it comes to this. Gen. Hostage is saying that the F-35’s cyber capabilities are so effective — combined with space assets, which are often difficult to distinguish in effect from cyber capabilities — that the planes have to stop using them so the pilots can shoot at each other.

The obvious question that arises from this is, how can a radar system also be a cyber weapon? We’ve all seen those World War II movies where the radar dish sweeps back and forth. The energy beams out, strikes the enemy plane and comes back as a blip. What makes an AESA radar special is the fact that it beams energy in digital zeroes and ones — and the beam can be focused. This allows the radar to function as both a scanning radar, a cyber weapon and an electronic warfare tool.



AESA Radar, Cyber And IADS

Here’s an excellent explanation for how we go from radio and radar and military systems that are not connected to the Internet yet remain vulnerable to hacking that I’ve cribbed from my deputy, Sydney Freedberg, from a recent piece he wrote in Breaking Defense about cyberwar. An enemy’s radios and radars are run by computers, so you can transmit signals to hack them. If the enemy’s computers are linked together then your virus can spread throughout that network. The enemy does not have to be connected to the Internet. You just need the enemy’s radios and radar to receive incoming signals – which they have to do in order to function.

So, as a former top intelligence official explained to me about two years ago, the AESA radar’s beams can throw out those zeros and ones to ANY sort of receiver. And an enemy’s radar is a receiver. His radios are receivers. Some of his electronic warfare sensors are also receivers.

But neither Hostage nor many others I spoke with were willing to be specific on the record about how effective the AESA radar, working with the aircraft’s sensors like the Distributed Aperture System and its data fusion system, will be. So the following is information culled from conversations over the last three months with a wide range of knowledgeable people inside government and the defense industry, as well as retired military and intelligence officers.

As the F-35 flies toward the Chinese coast and several hundred incoming PLAAF J-20s streak toward them in the scenario outlined in the first piece of this series, spoofing (using the enemy’s own systems to deceive him) will be a major part of our attack.

Enemy radar may well show thousands of F-35s and other aircraft heading their way, with stealth cross-sections that appear to match what the Chinese believe is the F-35’s cross section. Only a few hundred of them are real, but the Chinese can’t be certain which are which, forcing them to waste long-range missiles and forcing them to get closer to the US and allied F-35s so they can tell with greater fidelity which ones are real. The Chinese will try and use Infrared Search and Track (IRST) sensors, which have shorter ranges but provide tremendous fidelity in the right weather conditions. But that, of course, renders them more vulnerable to one sensor on the F-35 that even the plane’s critics rarely criticize, the Distributed Aperture System (DAS).

The clowns reaction after reading this.
View attachment 22605

Lol. Oh you can't ignore when your BS is called out. You can't help it.
@Milspec , you may be interested in budding Frank Herbert here. He's all set to create an alternate universe for the F-35 .

What's it's name you ask ?

Why , isn't it obvious ?!

DUNCE .

That there is the name of the new novel.
 

_Anonymous_

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Lol. I just love how he needs to call for help. I reckon he's not too smart to counter the article with his own words.
Where's the evidence, chump? You can claim the F-35 can use DEW too. Not a decade down the line but right now.
 

_Anonymous_

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Help me Milspec! Help me picard-oil! :ROFLMAO:
So you don't have any evidence , just a claim from an article 8 yrs old mostly aimed at a compromised Congress on LMs payroll to continue backing the JSF program long delayed & guzzling funds at the rate at which your SUVs would feel good about it's fuel efficiency & scam the ordinary tax payer as well as give multiple orgasms to juveniles like you .

What's more we're supposed to believe it. Why ? It's trust me bro , I know what I know . 🤣

Then you have the gall to take potshots against a proven active cancellation system like SPECTRA.

I've asked you this plenty of times before - how old are you ? Were you trained by your ma to put the toilet seat down after peeing or do you sit & pee ? 😆

This is precisely why I've repeatedly asked the moderating team here to have a minimum age bar of 21 & insist on a scanned copy of the Social security card or any such national identity card of a foreign member confirming the D.o.B of a new member before admitting the said member into the forum.

This way we prevent juveniles entry into a discussion room for adults & keep the level of discussions to a certain standard as opposed to methhead trailer park aviation geek community standard . 😆
 
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_Anonymous_

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Sucked into the myth too are you? Their DRFM is special. It's just a shame that it is now obsolete tech.
I think the issue we're discussing is the so called E Virus like Stuxnet mythical abilities that the F-35 possesses which nobody not even the OEM has talked about nor have those customers who've purchased the aircraft ever discussed except some obscure article in an equally obscure publication published 8 yrs ago , famous only in certain communities which we're expected to treat as the gospel.

How about extending the same reverence to the abilities of SPECTRA too then ? What's sauce for the goose ought to be sauce for the gander.
 

Innominate

Well-Known member
Jun 23, 2021
990
649
California
Help me Milspec! Help me picard-oil! Come and debunk General Hostage and the articles claim!! :ROFLMAO:

Such a boob. Demands evidence but has the nerve to accuse the article and General Hostage of lying without any evidence himself.

Pulling claims out of his a$$ because he hates the thought the F-35 is an advanced cyber weapon that a monkey like him can't comprehend so he calls for help to rescue him from his stupidity.
 
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_Anonymous_

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Help me Milspec! Help me picard-oil! Come and debunk General Hostage and the articles claim!! :ROFLMAO:

Such a boob. Demands evidence but has the nerve to accuse the article and General Hostage of lying without any evidence himself.

Pulling claims out of his a$$ because he hates the thought the F-35 is an advanced cyber weapon that a monkey like him can't comprehend so he calls for help to rescue him from his stupidity.
Ah ! Gen Hostage represents the second coming now does he ? Hell , Why didn't you say so before ?! I wouldn't dream of demanding evidence from the son of God ever , wouldn't dream of committing such a blasphemy ever again .

From now on I'd hold on to every word coming out of Gen Hostage's mouth as the gospel. Btw - where is this umm son of God these days ? Awaiting resurrection ?

You still haven't answered me kid . How old are you & do you make sure to put the toilet seat down after peeing or do you sit & do it ?
 

_Anonymous_

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Apparently Son of God wants 8 + Lightnings to team up with perhaps an equal number of Raptors to achieve the desired effect & meth head here was talking about how 2 Lightnings are enough to shield a dozen Vipers and / or Eagles to do the job.

Quite obviously he snorted stuff & posted out here or chased it & posted , didn't you boyo? Out with it . Snorted or chased ? @WHOHE


Question: One of the concepts we’ve played with was what we called the S Cubed, which is the tradeoffs between sensors, stealth, and speed. And how you played them off against one another. Does that make sense?

General Hostage: It does. I think an excellent portrayal of the value of looking at the interaction of those parameters is to examine Raptor versus the Lightning. A Raptor at 50-plus thousand feet at Mach 2 with its RCS has a different level of invulnerability than a Lightning at 35,000 at Mach .9 and it’s RCS.

The altitude, speed, and stealth combined in the two platforms, they give the airplanes two completely different levels of capability. The plan is to normalize the Lightning’s capability relative to the Raptor by marrying it up with six, or seven, or eight other Lightnings.

The advanced fusion of the F-35 versus the F-22 means those airplanes have an equal level or better level of invulnerability than the Raptors have, but it takes multiple airplanes to do it because of the synergistic fused attacks of their weapon systems.

And that’s the magic of the fifth gen F-35, but it takes numbers of F-35s to get that effect, that’s why I’ve been so strident on getting the full buy. Because if they whittle it down to a little tiny fleet like the Raptor, it’s not going to be compelling.



 

Optimist

Active member
Oct 31, 2021
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186
Australia
I think the issue we're discussing is the so called E Virus like Stuxnet mythical abilities that the F-35 possesses which nobody not even the OEM has talked about nor have those customers who've purchased the aircraft ever discussed except some obscure article in an equally obscure publication published 8 yrs ago , famous only in certain communities which we're expected to treat as the gospel.

How about extending the same reverence to the abilities of SPECTRA too then ? What's sauce for the goose ought to be sauce for the gander.
To keep it simple for you. Look at your iphone and what it can do. With bluetooth, wifi, internet, cell tower and satellite. Then add what the apps can do and times it all by 100.
 

_Anonymous_

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To keep it simple for you. Look at your iphone and what it can do. With bluetooth, wifi, internet, cell tower and satellite. Then add what the apps can do and times it all by 100.
Check out # 3532 . I've just posted it & It's by the same Gen Hostage. Does it look like the simplistic explanation you've provided works as an analogy as to how the Lightnings function ?
 

Innominate

Well-Known member
Jun 23, 2021
990
649
California
To keep it simple for you. Look at your iphone and what it can do. With bluetooth, wifi, internet, cell tower and satellite. Then add what the apps can do and times it all by 100.

Dude what are you doing? You're gonna have to do better than that and really dumb it down for him. Just look how upset he gets when an article where General Hostage hints of the F-35's E-virus capability he goes completely nuts because he can't comprehend how that is possible. Be gentle with people with the IQ of a chimp. No offense to the mighty chimp of course.
 
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_Anonymous_

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Dude what are you doing? You're gonna have to do better than that and really dumb it down for him. Just look how upset he gets when an article where General Hostage hints of the F-35's E-virus capability he goes completely nuts because he can't comprehend how that is possible. Be gentle with people with the IQ of a chimp. No offense to the mighty chimp of course.
So you do sit & pee. Where's the shame in admitting to it ? You mom raised you right even if she fed you dogfood.


I just finished watching this Hindi film where a couple of confidence men trick an American couple into buying the Taj Mahal. That was a week ago. The whole scene was a hoot . Reminded me of you & your Gen Hostage story .

Since then things have been dull . Voila ! Then you come along to entertain me with your stories about E Virus like Stuxnet once more including the second coming of the Son of God who can't be questioned leave alone be doubted.

I mean what better entertainment can one ask for ? Plus it's totally free . 🤣



Btw out of you & son of God Gen Hostage , whom do we believe ? You're claiming 2 Lightnings can cover a dozen 4/4.5 Gen fighters. Son of God is claiming he needs 8 to be teamed up & that too with Raptors. So whom do we believe ?

I hope you don't get the feeling that I'm trying to entrap you .🤣
 

Optimist

Active member
Oct 31, 2021
376
186
Australia
Dude what are you doing? You're gonna have to do better than that and really dumb it down for him. Just look how upset he gets when an article where General Hostage hints of the F-35's E-virus capability he goes completely nuts because he can't comprehend how that is possible. Be gentle with people with the IQ of a chimp. No offense to the mighty chimp of course.
Yea, I don't know why this is an alien concept. Cyber EA can be done by other platforms and other nation's air forces too. It's not a myth like active cancelation, which is still very primitive in comparison.
 

_Anonymous_

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Banned
Dec 4, 2017
17,189
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Yea, I don't know why this is an alien concept. Cyber EA can be done by other platforms and other nation's air forces too. It's not a myth like active cancelation, which is still very primitive in comparison.


Check out what juvenile delinquent posted here .


Post in thread 'Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning and F-22 'Raptor' : News & Discussion' Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning and F-22 'Raptor' : News & Discussion


Then check out #1428 onwards for the rest of the conversation specifically for a member Milspec & boyo's floundering responses to him . I'm unaware if you were a member then but I'm assuming you weren't. That'd put you up to date with boy wonder's shenanigans & how he keeps twisting & turning the narrative but when confronted now as then he starts obfuscating & deflecting.

The Lightning sells itself without needing trailer park boys cheerleading for it & imbuing it with exaggerated / imaginary capabilities .
 
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Innominate

Well-Known member
Jun 23, 2021
990
649
California
Yea, I don't know why this is an alien concept. Cyber EA can be done by other platforms and other nation's air forces too. It's not a myth like active cancelation, which is still very primitive in comparison.

Look how easily he gets upset and angry. He starts deflecting and talking about Indian movies somehow trying to make a point or something. Oh well this is the same poor fella that goes to public restrooms and praises them because it aesthetically pleases him or something. Weirdo.
 

Optimist

Active member
Oct 31, 2021
376
186
Australia
Check out what juvenile delinquent posted here .


Post in thread 'Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning and F-22 'Raptor' : News & Discussion' Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning and F-22 'Raptor' : News & Discussion


Then check out #1428 onwards for the rest of the conversation specifically for a member Milspec & boyo's floundering responses to him . I'm unaware if you were a member then but I'm assuming you weren't. That'd put you up to date with boy wonder's shenanigans & how he keeps twisting & turning the narrative but when confronted now as then he starts obfuscating & deflecting.

The Lightning sells itself without needing trailer park boys cheerleading for it & imbuing it with exaggerated / imaginary capabilities .
I accept you both are feuding and it has gone beyond fanboy teasing. That's a shame as it takes the fun out of it. I'm an old man, I can't remember what was on the last page and feuds hold no interest for me. Perception is everyone's reality. How else can people vote for Trump?