LCA AF Mk2 (Medium Weight Fighter) - News and discussions

[Aniruddha]

Now, you are a special kind of stupid to make this kind of comment even after spending all these years on the forum.

Showcasing first time on aero india doesnt mean squat. UTTAM was shown in 2017, i was there. Its not "ready" even today after 9 years.

BrahMos-NG was displayed previously, but they have not started test firing yet.

I have not heard of sourcing IRST from russia, must be some clickbait source according to your standard. Thank you for wasting time.

Well unlike you, I atleast present factual arguments rather than blurting out brain dead rant nonsense like you love to do kiddo.
Also the DRDO developed IRST I am talking about has been flight tested.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1775876240601387134

The Uttam AESA showcased in 2017 was more of a tech demonstrator and that version isn't making its way to the 2nd Tejas Mk1A batch of 97 aircraft, it has evolved with time.
So call that radar not ready is frankly BS because that radar isn't the final one meant for fitment onto the Tejas.

Brahmos-NG is yet to get go ahead from services & MoD.

I am not the only one saying the IRST being sourced outside, there are multiple reputed channels reporting on this piece of info.

https://twitter.com/x/status/2046026956538269928

Appreciate you wasting my time aswell—consistency in being useless is still consistency, I guess

 

[Tatvamasi]

You basically debunked all your earlier claims.

Claim 1) DRDO IRST is ready : Now its just possibly flight tested by now. Meaning its no where near ready when LCA Mk2 prototype configuration froze few years back.

Well unlike you, I atleast present factual arguments rather than blurting out brain dead rant nonsense like you love to do kiddo.
Also the DRDO developed IRST I am talking about has been flight tested.

2) Showcasing model means its ready: Suddenly Uttam was just evolving not ready!. Lol

The Uttam AESA showcased in 2017 was more of a tech demonstrator and that version isn't making its way to the 2nd Tejas Mk1A batch of 97 aircraft, it has evolved with time.
So call that radar not ready is frankly BS because that radar isn't the final one meant for fitment onto the Tejas.

3) IRST sourced from Russia: now its just outside according to some twitter boys.

I am not the only one saying the IRST being sourced outside, there are multiple reputed channels reporting on this piece of info.

 

[Rajput Lion]

It's likely fake news. Any attempt at searching for this throws me in the direction of Pirate. There's no contract for it.

DRDO once said they are developing an IRST and it works like Pirate. It appears someone's decided to think it means we are buying Pirate. Even some search results throw statements like DRDO's IRST is designed around Pirate, which doesn't make sense 'cause we don't have access to it.

Anyway, if DRDO IRST isn't ready, there's no need to import one just for prototypes. They can simply use ballast until it is ready. An import is necessary only if the goal is to deliver the jets with IRST.

Our IRST being developed by BEL is based on PIRATE's specs which simply means it works on both 3-5 microns and 8-14 microns, i.e., on both MWIR & LWIR. But likely our IRST has integrated TV channel and LRF too. At least on the variant intended for MKI UPG. However LCA MK2 may or may not have the latter two.

 

[randomradio]

Our IRST being developed by BEL is based on PIRATE's specs which simply means it works on both 3-5 microns and 8-14 microns, i.e., on both MWIR & LWIR. But likely our IRST has integrated TV channel and LRF too. At least on the variant intended for MKI UPG. However LCA MK2 may or may not have the latter two.

That's not what "based on" Pirate's specs means. MWIR and LWIR simply work in those frequencies. If it's based on Pirate, then it would need the Pirate's matrix detector, which DRDO does not have access to.

Pirate was given as an example. We know what IRST is, but this information was meant for the general public.

Update: India to integrate indigenous IRSTs into fighter aircraft

India's state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) is testing an indigenous infrared search and track (IRST) system that has been developed for the Indian Air Force...

www.janes.com

Kaushik Sorabh, HAL LCA Mk2 project manager, said the design of the IRST is similar to the Passive Infrared Airborne Track Equipment (PIRATE) IRST system, which was built primarily for the Eurofighter Typhoon platform and developed by Eurofirst, a consortium led by Leonardo.

Sorabh added that, like the PIRATE, HAL's new passive-ranging IRST is a long-range dual-band system that is capable of tracking multiple targets with a large field-of-view (FoV). The IRST is equipped to handle air-to-air and air-to-ground target tracking.
There's absolutely no relation between India's IRST and Pirate. It's just idiots making things up 'cause they don't know English.

In any case, MKI's new IRST is different. It's via HAL and BEL partnership whereas LCA Mk2's MAWS and IRST are from IRDE. Both are being tested by HAL considering both programs are theirs. MKI's IRST comes with TV and laser as well, LCA Mk2's is just IRST. Both are dual band IR.

 

[Rajput Lion]

That's not what "based on" Pirate's specs means. MWIR and LWIR simply work in those frequencies. If it's based on Pirate, then it would need the Pirate's matrix detector, which DRDO does not have access to.

Pirate was given as an example. We know what IRST is, but this information was meant for the general public.

Update: India to integrate indigenous IRSTs into fighter aircraft

India's state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) is testing an indigenous infrared search and track (IRST) system that has been developed for the Indian Air Force...

www.janes.com

Kaushik Sorabh, HAL LCA Mk2 project manager, said the design of the IRST is similar to the Passive Infrared Airborne Track Equipment (PIRATE) IRST system, which was built primarily for the Eurofighter Typhoon platform and developed by Eurofirst, a consortium led by Leonardo.

Sorabh added that, like the PIRATE, HAL's new passive-ranging IRST is a long-range dual-band system that is capable of tracking multiple targets with a large field-of-view (FoV). The IRST is equipped to handle air-to-air and air-to-ground target tracking.
There's absolutely no relation between India's IRST and Pirate. It's just idiots making things up 'cause they don't know English.

That's what I meant by being based on PIRATE, i.e., being similar in tech base.

In any case, MKI's new IRST is different. It's via HAL and BEL partnership whereas LCA Mk2's MAWS and IRST are from IRDE. Both are being tested by HAL considering both programs are theirs. MKI's IRST comes with TV and laser as well, LCA Mk2's is just IRST. Both are dual band IR.

Yeah, but LCA MK2 could still use TV and LRF in final or later production batches.

 

[randomradio]

That's what I meant by being based on PIRATE, i.e., being similar in tech base.

Yeah, but LCA MK2 could still use TV and LRF in final or later production batches.

MKI's sensor will be much larger so it's much more comprehensive than LCA's.

It's Pirate based, as in, it only has IRST. No laser or TV. LCA will instead get TV and laser via Litening.

MKI's IRST is OLS-35 based, comes with TV and laser. It's meant for A2G and dogfighting.

So being based on Pirate is based on functionality.

 

[Rajput Lion]

MKI's sensor will be much larger so it's much more comprehensive than LCA's.

It's Pirate based, as in, it only has IRST. No laser or TV. LCA will instead get TV and laser via Litening.

MKI's IRST is OLS-35 based, comes with TV and laser. It's meant for A2G and dogfighting.

So being based on Pirate is based on functionality.

Absolutely. That was exactly my point. One correction though, OLS-35 is MWIR only just like current OLS-30M. MKI's future indigenous IRST is going to be dual-band so even that is similar to PIRATE in that regard though it will also have TV channel along with LRF like OLS-35.

MKI's IRST is specifically designed to track J-20 from 150kms+ away and to put Astra 2/3 shot on it before J-20 fires its PL-15/16.

 

[randomradio]

Absolutely. That was exactly my point. One correction though, OLS-35 is MWIR only just like current OLS-30M. MKI's future indigenous IRST is going to be dual-band so even that is similar to PIRATE in that regard though it will also have TV channel along with LRF like OLS-35.

MKI's IRST is specifically designed to track J-20 from 150kms+ away and to put Astra 2/3 shot on it before J-20 fires its PL-15/16.

I was referring to functionality, not the tech base. OLS-35 may come with MWIR, but system design is around an IRST, TV, and laser rather than IRST alone.

I don't think there will be much of a difference between LCA and MKI's IRSTs in terms of detection range.

 

[Rajput Lion]

I was referring to functionality, not the tech base. OLS-35 may come with MWIR, but system design is around an IRST, TV, and laser rather than IRST alone.

Yes.

I don't think there will be much of a difference between LCA and MKI's IRSTs in terms of detection range.

AFAIK, MKI's sensor will be bigger and more advanced than MK2's version. With TV channel and LRF integrated in the same window, its tech base is also more advance. The algorithms fusing IRST, TV & LRF data is also going to be more advance in MKI. Thanks to more space available, not only the outer dome/window going to be bigger in MKI but the inner SHU(sensor head unit) is also going to bigger and heavier, thus more capable.

 

[randomradio]

AFAIK, MKI's sensor will be bigger and more advanced than MK2's version. With TV channel and LRF integrated in the same window, its tech base is also more advance. The algorithms fusing IRST, TV & LRF data is also going to be more advance in MKI. Thanks to more space available, not only the outer dome/window going to be bigger in MKI but the inner SHU(sensor head unit) is also going to bigger and heavier, thus more capable.

Having more features and having the same tech base are completely different. An AESA radar with EW and comm capability is feature. GaN vs GaAs is tech base.

MKI's IRST has to share space with a TV sensor and a small laser. This is how the MKI's IRST will look like.




Litening contains IRST + TV + FLIR + laser. MKI eliminates the FLIR. Whereas Mk2 will just have the IRST alone within the entire sensor housing. So it's possible for the Mk2's IRST to be larger.

OLS-30's IRST is 20 cm compared to Pirate's 30 cm. Mk2's could also be 20-30 cm.

And since Mk2's a DRDO product, it could use a more advanced detector compared to whatever BEL can conjure up.

We need actual data to compare.

 

[Rajput Lion]

Having more features and having the same tech base are completely different. An AESA radar with EW and comm capability is feature. GaN vs GaAs is tech base.

MKI's IRST has to share space with a TV sensor and a small laser. This is how the MKI's IRST will look like.

View attachment 51756


Litening contains IRST + TV + FLIR + laser. MKI eliminates the FLIR. Whereas Mk2 will just have the IRST alone within the entire sensor housing. So it's possible for the Mk2's IRST to be larger.

OLS-30's IRST is 20 cm compared to Pirate's 30 cm. Mk2's could also be 20-30 cm.

And since Mk2's a DRDO product, it could use a more advanced detector compared to whatever BEL can conjure up.

We need actual data to compare.

It's not just the dome but the underneath SHU that matters most as the data processing is done there. MKI's SHU is designed with same footprint(though lighter) as OLS-30M's, so it is going to be much larger while having literally the same tech-base(processing) as MK2's IRST, resulting in far longer detection range of stealth targets.

 

[spice]

Is this for Tejas 2 rollout ? ADA Tender on Gem portal
Tender title: Canopy Assembly for Aircraft

CANOPY LH SIDE MEMBER-OUTER - 1
OUTER HANDLE - 1
PUSH-BUTTON-OUTER-HANDLE - 1
Dummy Mirror - 6

Delivery period is 3 months. Bid will be opened on 4th June.

 

[Sathya]

Mk2 order size depend on time of induction..
If it's inducted tomorrow, order size will go 400+ , but post 2035,.doubt we ll be interested in more than 200 + when Amca , Su 30 UPG, Rafale will be inducted.

 

[Rajput Lion]

Mk2 order size depend on time of induction..
If it's inducted tomorrow, order size will go 400+ , but post 2035,.doubt we ll be interested in more than 200 + when Amca , Su 30 UPG, Rafale will be inducted.

42 squadron is now passe. We're now looking to increase sanctioned squadron count to almost 60. Which jet do you think we have in mind to achieve this number?

 

[BHARAT KA BETA]

42 squadron is now passe. We're now looking to increase sanctioned squadron count to almost 60. Which jet do you think we have in mind to achieve this number?

42 squadrons = 42×18 = 756 Aircrafts
60 squadrons = 60×18 = 1080 Aircrafts

Present strength is 29 squadrons = 29×18 =522 Aircrafts

For,

42 squadrons we need (756 - 522) = 234 Aircrafts + At least 9 replacement squadrons (in near future) = (234+162) = 396 Aircrafts

60 squadrons we need (1080 - 522) = 558 Aircrafts + At least 9 replacement squadrons (in near future) = (558+162) = 720 Aircrafts.

We have already placed order for 180 LCA Tejas Mk 1A.

So,

For 42 squadrons we need new ( 396 - 180 ) = 216 Aircrafts (New Order)

For 60 squadrons we need new ( 720 - 180 ) = 540 Aircrafts (New Order).

Assuming 114 New Aircrafts under MRFA,

For 42 squadrons we need indigenous ( 216 - 114 ) = 102 Aircrafts only

For 60 squadrons we need indigenous ( 540 - 114 ) = 426 Aircrafts

So, my opinion is IAF is absolutely looking for a 60 + squadrons strength minimum . And the requirements of NEW+ INDIGENOUS AIRCRAFTS still required is 426 Aircrafts.

Among these 426 Aircrafts ,

LCA MK 2 should be 250 to 300 ( 13 to 16 squadrons), and
AMCA should be 126 to 176 ( 7 to 10 squadrons).

 

[lmaoxd]

Gripen e is superior to su35/sm2 by miles(gan aesa + meteor)

Yeah, but i dont think that it will get any export orders in 2032 onwards.

mk2 export is practially not possible, since the gripen E is just a mk2 anyway. But India is likely to order 200 of the mk2s if push comes to shove to replenish squadron numbers. The minimum for the mk2 is alr at 120(6-7 squadrons) stated by the IAF themselves.

 

[randomradio]

No chance for Gripen E or Rafale here.

Chinese pitted old J-11s against Thai Air Force' Gripen C, where Gripen dominated the BVR owing to lower RCS and stronger radar while J-11s owned the WVR regime.

Against Su-35S/Su-30SM2, that have far far stronger PESA radar, very powerful ECM and very strong engines along with much lower RCS than those old Chinese J-11s, Gripen E has no chance especially when R-37M is put in the fray. Twin-engined jets have far better operational ceiling and kinematics than these single-engined ones allowing the Russian Super Flankers to fly higher and faster, imparting more energy into their BVR shots, thereby putting the enemy on the defensive.

LCA MK2 will beat that.

The Chinese have praised the Gripen E concept after having dealt with Gripen C. That's the main point. MKIs have performed poorly in BVR against M2000s too. The Irbis-E won't help here. It's the limitation of a large RCS. Gripen C's frontal RCS is half that of the M2000 and Gripen E's is significantly better than that.

The IAF rates the Meteor higher compared to R-37M as well. The main reason for us is we can't use Meteors on MKIs, so R-37s act as stopgap to compete with LR BVRAAMs. Even with R-37M, Gripen E will consistently defeat Flankers.

MKI MLU is necessary here and still operate at a disadvantage compared to Gripen E and LCA Mk2.

Competition with Su-57 is entirely dependent on its own level of maturity relative to Gripen E. The problem with the Su-57 is its large IR signature relative to Gripen. If Gripen comes with a working ACT, then it could end up within shooting distance of the Su-57 due to IR limitations. The aircraft needs Izd 30 to survive. The F-22 and F-35 with significantly higher levels of RF and IR stealth are naturally better than Gripen E. Of course, if Su-57 actually achieves its design goals, it will become more than competitive, but it's unclear when that's gonna happen.

As for LCA, it has to come with the same EW capabilities if it has to compete in the export market. Can't expect much with just a price advantage 'cause of F-50. Gripen E has a decade-plus advantage for now.

 

[PhotonVish]

LCA MK 2 should be 250 to 300 ( 13 to 16 squadrons), and
AMCA should be 126 to 176 ( 7 to 10 squadrons).

I hope that iaf order over 300 amca(mk1+mk2+upgrades)

And then over 70 navel amca

3-4 squrad per year should be our goal with amca(including navel) at maturity

 

[Lolwa]

42 squadrons = 42×18 = 756 Aircrafts
60 squadrons = 60×18 = 1080 Aircrafts

Present strength is 29 squadrons = 29×18 =522 Aircrafts

For,

42 squadrons we need (756 - 522) = 234 Aircrafts + At least 9 replacement squadrons (in near future) = (234+162) = 396 Aircrafts

60 squadrons we need (1080 - 522) = 558 Aircrafts + At least 9 replacement squadrons (in near future) = (558+162) = 720 Aircrafts.

We have already placed order for 180 LCA Tejas Mk 1A.

So,

For 42 squadrons we need new ( 396 - 180 ) = 216 Aircrafts (New Order)

For 60 squadrons we need new ( 720 - 180 ) = 540 Aircrafts (New Order).

Assuming 114 New Aircrafts under MRFA,

For 42 squadrons we need indigenous ( 216 - 114 ) = 102 Aircrafts only

For 60 squadrons we need indigenous ( 540 - 114 ) = 426 Aircrafts

So, my opinion is IAF is absolutely looking for a 60 + squadrons strength minimum . And the requirements of NEW+ INDIGENOUS AIRCRAFTS still required is 426 Aircrafts.

Among these 426 Aircrafts ,

LCA MK 2 should be 250 to 300 ( 13 to 16 squadrons), and
AMCA should be 126 to 176 ( 7 to 10 squadrons).

Need to set up new mirage 2000 and Jaguar squadrons as well as mig 29. Just buy second hand mirage and Jaguar air frames from the French and build more flankers. Integrate Scalp, spice ,rampage and SAAW on all of them.

 

[PhotonVish]

Need to set up new mirage 2000 and Jaguar squadrons as well as mig 29. Just buy second hand mirage and Jaguar air frames from the French and build more flankers. Integrate Scalp, spice ,rampage and SAAW on all of them.

Bro, no need to buy these antiques. There right place is in museum and not in iaf

And anyway, if air to ground more concern you then having over 500 ghatak is more intelligent choice (for both air to air and air to ground)

We will have our own engine, radars, other avionics and obv design as well

Infact. For air to ground, a turoprop drone with cruise missile/ turbo jet bomb is cheaper option and also no piolet risk