I don't think that is a valid way to look at things. We aren't living in 1994. Country has changed a lot since 94. The things at HAL and DRDO has changed a lot as well. Although delays are still a thing, but i don't think they will take two decades to finish a project today.
LCA AF Mk2 (Medium Weight Fighter) - News and discussions
- Thread starter Schwifty
- Start date
Culture of over promising, boasting and babudom didn’t change. Its institutional, wont change just with better resources.
People tend to look at things with a binary lens. They should look at the financial support that the Aero Engine has received over the decades along with the crest and troughs of interest shown by GoI in having its own FA projects. It is easy to nail DRDO or HAL to a pillar of shame. It is a low hanging fruit that has varying degree of truth associated with it. The unnecessary complexity around certain aspects of mil tech/mil procurement (such as excessive babudom) leaves the Def fans underwhelmed and disappointed most of the time. Just my 2 cents. Let's see how things proceed with Pvt. orgs as they are allowed to enter the Aero sector.
Then what do you think it should be? The Koreans themselves confirmed the Typhoon's RCS is 0.1m2 class, which they classified as reduced observable or RO, the same objective for KF-21, and we know for a fact Rafale has an even smaller RCS.
Yes, weapons increase RCS, but reducing base RCS removes the load off EW, and adding weapons is additive. So in some configurations, RCS can be maintained as weapons are released.
For example in an LFE when equipped with ASRAAM and 4 BVRs, once the BVRs are released, the LCA retains base RCS, with the ASRAAM contributing nothing to the RCS 'cause it's below 0.01m2. Now you have an aircraft at 0.27m2 facing off against an aircraft with 1m2 or 10-15m2 RCS, ie, the 4th gens of the time. This provides resistance against radar burn-through.
The Rafale, too, when carring 4 MICAs, the base RCS is the most observed 'cause the MICAs integrate into the airframe, whereas Typhoon has 4 recessed/conformal HPs for BVR, you see the same design on KF-21. Combine these jets with a missile design that has very low RCS by design, like ASRAAM, and there's no noticeable increase to base RCS.
You exist outside of already established facts. Like Rafale's RCS being in the 0.1m2 class like Typhoon isn't even disputed by anybody.
Even SH B2's RCS was reduced to below 0.5m2 with further improvements on B3. Heck, the DoD made a whole report on why the earlier Hornet cannot carry a towed decoy due to its 5m2 RCS.
They would have had they stuck to original objectives instead of changing the game midway. Who told them to chase after digital FBW as their first project? The IAF had asked for hydraulics. DRDO just kept increasing the specs until the airframe could no longer handle it with the technology of the time.
LCA was just a TD program until the mid-2000s.
All of DRDO projects received sufficient funding once initiated, even Kaveri. The engine failed due to lack of tech.
They blamed it on tech denials, but IAF was like, "Why don't you lot develop what was denied instead?"
Later a new generation of scientists took over and delivered results after Safran confirmed the program was doable. This was after Modi purged the DRDO, this pushed new under-35 scientists into leadership roles, 2015. He then allowed the new leadership to remove what he called "dead wood." DRDO started performing once the fossils were extracted.
Do you have sources for all these? I would love to peruse the financials bottlenecks (if there ever was a case) and the sufficient funding aspects. The last claim especially the DRDO insider bit - I was completely unaware that such a thing had taken place. If you have a source, I would appreciate a link. Thanks.
I can tell without checking your profile you seem to be new around here. Been waiting for 8+ years for such references / citations including the golden year of 2022. Anyway , let me know if you come across anything.
There's a bit of history here (I read tidbits on several threads) and I am aware of it. I am equally aware of your stance regarding things. The claims are so staggering that I had to ask.
Restructured leadership of DRDO
Leadership changes in DRDO signal the determination of the government to propel the organisation to attain significantly higher levels of indigenisation in defence hardware with enhanced levels of accountability.
www.spslandforces.com
DRDO Chief ousted.
Real reasons behind DRDO chief Avinash Chander’s sacking
corruptionindrdo.com
5 DRDO labs where everyone is under 35!
'Each lab is working on a key advanced technology of importance to the development of futuristic defence.'
This was all part of the wider MoD reforms.
Future reforms: DRDO 2.0.
Recommendations of Vijay Raghavan Panel
The nine-member VijayRaghavan panel, established by the government, has recently submitted a comprehensive report addressing concerns about the functioning of the Defence Research and Development Organisation
www.drishtiias.com
As for financial bottlenecks, DRDO Chief and other respective program chiefs have said they never faced funding issues in their programs whenever questioned by the media.
Thank you. I got what was I was looking for.Restructured leadership of DRDO
Leadership changes in DRDO signal the determination of the government to propel the organisation to attain significantly higher levels of indigenisation in defence hardware with enhanced levels of accountability.
DRDO Chief ousted.
Real reasons behind DRDO chief Avinash Chander’s sacking
5 DRDO labs where everyone is under 35!
'Each lab is working on a key advanced technology of importance to the development of futuristic defence.'www.rediff.com
This was all part of the wider MoD reforms.
Future reforms: DRDO 2.0.
Recommendations of Vijay Raghavan Panel
The nine-member VijayRaghavan panel, established by the government, has recently submitted a comprehensive report addressing concerns about the functioning of the Defence Research and Development Organisation
As for financial bottlenecks, DRDO Chief and other respective program chiefs have said they never faced funding issues in their programs whenever questioned by the media.
I was being serious. Go through them. You'll feel....you'll feel something. I do not know what exactly but it will be profound.
Let's see -I was being serious. Go through them. You'll feel....you'll feel something. I do not know what exactly but it will be profound.
The first link leads to a bad gateway . Nothing surprising there.
The second one is a site dedicated to highlighting issues at DRDO . It's partially accessible listing corruption incompetence & other acts of malfeasance at the organisation.
Avinash Chander was primarily sacked ( he was on extension ) to send a message down the ranks .
Those 5 DRDO labs were to be staffed by scientists below the age of 35 . It's not as if all scientists above that age would be sacked or redesignated .
You can't implement knee jerk solutions like this in legacy organizations without grave repercussions all around .These labs were created specifically for this age group.
The complete findings & recommendations of the Vijay Raghavan Committee has not been made public for obvious reasons. All we have are broad indications of its recommendations.
Some of its recommendations have long been part of wishlists if you've ever been to B-R-F like the DTC & Department of Defence Science Technology & Innovation apart from other requirements like for instance the involvement of DRDO in production ization.
That's a separate task by itself left best to specialists. Ideally the production team is part of the development process which is something you see today in the form of the DcPP. There're plenty of other takeaways from the report whose recommendations are being implemented.
As far as the financial inputs go , a good example is the Kaveri project & the finances allotted. We know for a fact lack of test facilities severely hampered & delayed the R&D of the said project.
This isn't to say we'd have developed a fully functional TF which fulfilled the AFSQRs if the program had received due finances. But without providing the basics how do you evaluate the performance of an organisation ?
In all likelihood we'd still have lacked production expertise in some areas we're now getting courtesy the F-414 JV vide local production .
Now you compare all this to what was claimed in #2626 & the evidence provided in #2630 & decide for yourself whether whatever was claimed is verifiable by the evidence provided.
Spoonfed maharaj strikes again.
I gave all the clues necessary for people to do their due diligence.
Say ahh.
theprint.in
Here's an aeroplane.
Here's a second aeroplane.
swarajyamag.com
DRDO went though the same thing, it's obvious they can't publicize details for his esteemed spoonfed maharaj 'cause that requires thinking.
Next up is full revamp, studies began in 2018.
www.hindustantimes.com
I gave all the clues necessary for people to do their due diligence.
Say ahh.
Modi govt wants ministries to name corrupt officers by next week for forced retirement
In a letter sent Tuesday, the DoPT has asked 45 government bodies and ministries, including finance, HRD & law, to send details of corrupt officers by 13 December.
theprint.in
Here's an aeroplane.
Here's a second aeroplane.
Modi Govt Got Rid Of 340 Non-Performing 'Deadwood' Group-A, Group-B Officers Till December 2020
The Fundamental Rule 56(J) allows the government to send employees on compulsory retirement.
swarajyamag.com
DRDO went though the same thing, it's obvious they can't publicize details for his esteemed spoonfed maharaj 'cause that requires thinking.
Next up is full revamp, studies began in 2018.
Modi govt revamps DRDO: Key body reconstituted, to set agenda
The reconstituted DSTMC is a high-profile body that will chart the future of DRDO laboratories in synergy with the science and technology department.| India News
www.hindustantimes.com
I like the tropes professional story teller employs to buttress his points. First make 8 pm statements , which most veterans ignore for obvious reasons but which happens to be challenged by a relatively new member & then panic sets in , the pleasant post 8 pm buzz disappears & the circus starts .
First comes goal post shifting. From clear evidence the goalposts are shifted to what is known in the legal profession as corroborative evidence.
However these by itself cannot prove the main charges . Hence comes the next tactic in the playbook - ask people to make guesses or due diligence.
In other words I will indulge in R&D - Read & Dump . If you ask for evidence , I will provide something vague & you've to do data mining to prove me wrong. Otherwise whatever I've put out is the gospel truth.
Unfortunately AI - the master story teller leaves no room for professional story teller to spin tales to earn his livelihood.
There's no mention whatsoever of DRDO personnel being sacked / compulsorily retired from service for either corruption or a poor service record.
Now it may well be the case that this is classified information though why is it so is beyond me . In which case what's the point of sharing such links ? But that's what the post 8 pm effect is all about.
Google Search
m.economictimes.com
Yeah well , the aeroplane failed to take off or if it did , it crash landed. As I've pointed out plenty of times before , AI is going to spell the death knell of a lot of professions like Coder Coolies , Animators , Musicians , Call Center Coolies , porn stars even but most of all professional story tellers .
It's a good thing old PKS kicked the bucket before he faced this phenomenon. In his defence his track record in predictions were a good 7-8/10 . Then we have professional ...ok let's not go there.
Data provided doesn't include personnel from ISRO , DRDO , DAE etc for it's classified information. So once again what's the point of this link which is at best corroborative evidence while the main body of evidence is missing.
Yeah well second aeroplane met the same fate as the first one . The only aeroplane flying at this time of the night is the consumer of 8 pm.
No evidence for sacking / compulsory retirement of DRDO personnel just like in the previous case. Nil / Zilch / Nada / Nyet evidence.
So after posting all the "evidence " comes the final act of the playbook - issue a disclaimer viz DRDO doesn't publicise evidence & it's upto those seeking evidence to add 2+2.
Yup. Revamp began in 2018 . Vijay Raghavan Committee set up in 2023. Report submitted in 2024 , we're in 2026 & the revamp is still happening.
A good number of those scientists may have already super annuated , some may have kicked the bucket in harness & so on while the revamp was still being undertaken.
Perhaps all this was part of the revamp. I'm glad we didn't have a statement to this effect by professional story teller. Thank God for tender mercies.
In the meanwhile ADE , professional story teller's former / current employer ( most probably ) is still test flying the Rustom -> Tapas -> Archer -> Archer NG which they were to certify in the last AI-25 .
No issues I say . In less than a year we're due for AI-27 . Time for one more story then . Then there's the Nirbhay Sub Sonic Cruise Missile & the number of name changes it underwent.
Now that's one organisation which ought to be shut down & the scientists there not reassigned nor given Compulsory Retirement but GPL minus any compensation whatsoever
And I'm not saying this because professional story teller was / is employed there ( well yes it's that too ) but that organisation is a genuine blot on the name & reputation of DRDO .
Have you heard of any such development ? No you haven't nor will you . For good reason . They're well entrenched. Going by the yardstick professional story teller employed about inference , extra polation of data etc if this perennial non performer of an organisation can still exist then individuals or smaller non performing clusters definitely can.
This means all that post 8 pm talk is just that - post 8 pm talk.
First comes goal post shifting. From clear evidence the goalposts are shifted to what is known in the legal profession as corroborative evidence.
However these by itself cannot prove the main charges . Hence comes the next tactic in the playbook - ask people to make guesses or due diligence.
In other words I will indulge in R&D - Read & Dump . If you ask for evidence , I will provide something vague & you've to do data mining to prove me wrong. Otherwise whatever I've put out is the gospel truth.
Unfortunately AI - the master story teller leaves no room for professional story teller to spin tales to earn his livelihood.
There's no mention whatsoever of DRDO personnel being sacked / compulsorily retired from service for either corruption or a poor service record.
Now it may well be the case that this is classified information though why is it so is beyond me . In which case what's the point of sharing such links ? But that's what the post 8 pm effect is all about.
Google Search
DRDO: 132 scientists left DRDO on personal grounds in last 5 years: Govt
In a written reply, Shripad Naik, Minister of State for Defence, said in 2015, 37 scientists quit the organisation, followed by 38 in 2016, 22 in 2017, 17 in 2018 and 18 in 2019. He said financial incentives have been increased to arrest brain drain and make the career of scientists in DRDO more...
Yeah well , the aeroplane failed to take off or if it did , it crash landed. As I've pointed out plenty of times before , AI is going to spell the death knell of a lot of professions like Coder Coolies , Animators , Musicians , Call Center Coolies , porn stars even but most of all professional story tellers .
It's a good thing old PKS kicked the bucket before he faced this phenomenon. In his defence his track record in predictions were a good 7-8/10 . Then we have professional ...ok let's not go there.
Data provided doesn't include personnel from ISRO , DRDO , DAE etc for it's classified information. So once again what's the point of this link which is at best corroborative evidence while the main body of evidence is missing.
Yeah well second aeroplane met the same fate as the first one . The only aeroplane flying at this time of the night is the consumer of 8 pm.
No evidence for sacking / compulsory retirement of DRDO personnel just like in the previous case. Nil / Zilch / Nada / Nyet evidence.
So after posting all the "evidence " comes the final act of the playbook - issue a disclaimer viz DRDO doesn't publicise evidence & it's upto those seeking evidence to add 2+2.
Yup. Revamp began in 2018 . Vijay Raghavan Committee set up in 2023. Report submitted in 2024 , we're in 2026 & the revamp is still happening.
A good number of those scientists may have already super annuated , some may have kicked the bucket in harness & so on while the revamp was still being undertaken.
Perhaps all this was part of the revamp. I'm glad we didn't have a statement to this effect by professional story teller. Thank God for tender mercies.
In the meanwhile ADE , professional story teller's former / current employer ( most probably ) is still test flying the Rustom -> Tapas -> Archer -> Archer NG which they were to certify in the last AI-25 .
No issues I say . In less than a year we're due for AI-27 . Time for one more story then . Then there's the Nirbhay Sub Sonic Cruise Missile & the number of name changes it underwent.
Now that's one organisation which ought to be shut down & the scientists there not reassigned nor given Compulsory Retirement but GPL minus any compensation whatsoever
And I'm not saying this because professional story teller was / is employed there ( well yes it's that too ) but that organisation is a genuine blot on the name & reputation of DRDO .
Have you heard of any such development ? No you haven't nor will you . For good reason . They're well entrenched. Going by the yardstick professional story teller employed about inference , extra polation of data etc if this perennial non performer of an organisation can still exist then individuals or smaller non performing clusters definitely can.
This means all that post 8 pm talk is just that - post 8 pm talk.
So many words, but so little meaning.
People leaving on "personal grounds" is called resignation. But what's really happening is sidelining of oldies.
For example, the 5 new labs for new tech limited to under 35s means all the oldies waiting to get their hands on these new departments were sidelined. All these 5 labs are cutting edge next gen stuff, AI, quantum, materials, cognitive, and asymmetric technologies. All labs I know for a fact people were keen to get into.
And this was repeated in almost all existing labs too, where hierarchy was trampled upon and junior scientists were pushed forward. This resulted in a spate of "voluntary resignations" who left DRDO on "personal grounds."
This is very common in the military and defense circles, even PSUs in general. People take voluntary retirement when they get sidelined. That's also why Avinash Chander was kicked out, he used his position to sideline others in the hierarchy for money. Vstol too quit the IN prematurely after he was grounded for health reasons after 2 ejections and decided to go civilian.
I know many people in such positions of power within PSUs, they don't simply leave before retirement until they are forced to leave. The only other time people leave is early on when they do not get a scientist position due to certain specific circumstances, or when they use DRDO as a springboard for higher education in foreign universities.
Man, it's boring to think for others.
The only reason I reply to stupid posts is to make sure others are not infected by the stupidity. Otherwise I tend to leave normal stupid posts alone anyway.
Thinking is a privilege.
People leaving on "personal grounds" is called resignation. But what's really happening is sidelining of oldies.
For example, the 5 new labs for new tech limited to under 35s means all the oldies waiting to get their hands on these new departments were sidelined. All these 5 labs are cutting edge next gen stuff, AI, quantum, materials, cognitive, and asymmetric technologies. All labs I know for a fact people were keen to get into.
And this was repeated in almost all existing labs too, where hierarchy was trampled upon and junior scientists were pushed forward. This resulted in a spate of "voluntary resignations" who left DRDO on "personal grounds."
This is very common in the military and defense circles, even PSUs in general. People take voluntary retirement when they get sidelined. That's also why Avinash Chander was kicked out, he used his position to sideline others in the hierarchy for money. Vstol too quit the IN prematurely after he was grounded for health reasons after 2 ejections and decided to go civilian.
I know many people in such positions of power within PSUs, they don't simply leave before retirement until they are forced to leave. The only other time people leave is early on when they do not get a scientist position due to certain specific circumstances, or when they use DRDO as a springboard for higher education in foreign universities.
Man, it's boring to think for others.
The only reason I reply to stupid posts is to make sure others are not infected by the stupidity. Otherwise I tend to leave normal stupid posts alone anyway.
Thinking is a privilege.
So resignations is now part of "the great purge " by the Modi government. I highlighted the article only to give readers here an idea of the various reasons people are quitting the DRDO since there are no confirmed figures of the yarns professional story teller has subjected us to nor has he provided any direct evidence of his allegations , as usual , in his standard MO over the past decade.
Well isn't it quite obvious new technologies would mean the younger scientists would be more at home coming up with innovations on them than the older lot ?
AI wasn't a thing when I graduated 2 decades ago . Hell even electromechanical engg wasn't a subject then leave aside what it was earlier. We don't expect 50 year old scientists to be dabbling in them do we ?
I mean are these no brainers or some huge brainwave as professional story teller is pretending it is mostly to cover for his post 8 pm performance here ?
Having said that Modi is to be commended for these "innovations" . The apostrophe marks are deliberate for this isn't normally the way systems in India function irrespective this is the norm worldwide for we are like this only.
If heirarchies were trampled upon & the older lot sidelined how come anachronisms like ADE is still functioning ? I see not one peep from professional story teller on his former / current employer . For good reason too.
The results delivered by the ADE in the real world mirrors the predictions of professional story teller in the virtual world. Both have been delivering lemons consistently . So much so that master storyteller PKS went ahead & died . Poor chap. That's how disappointing both these entities have been. What more can I say ?!
So an equivalence is being drawn between Avinash Chander being sidelined for corruption & Vstol quitting for being sidelined on health grounds . This is the second time allegations have been made against a distinguished scientist & I've yet to see any evidence of it .
In fact if one went data mining for confirmation of this piece of allegation , there's absolutely none of it on the net . Every article & analysis on the subject literally screams Avinash Chander was made an example of for his complacent nature & to send a message down the ranks.
I distinctly recall master storyteller PKS remark Avinash Chander was rather unfortunate for he himself was an industrious person with a significant body of work & achievements behind him & that many of his contemporaries with much worse track records retained their positions but he ended up as an unfortunate scapegoat mostly coz he didn't get along with MP who thought DRDO wasn't serious about frequent slippages in project realisation about which AC didn't do much in spite of repeated warnings / reminders. A message had to be sent & it was with AC getting the boot.
Between professional story teller & master storyteller I'd always go with the latter 100/100. I've seen their track record in analyses ( which is more anal yeast professional story teller's case ) & predictions first hand.
So why do I engage & not engage professional story teller ? For this reason
Well isn't it quite obvious new technologies would mean the younger scientists would be more at home coming up with innovations on them than the older lot ?
AI wasn't a thing when I graduated 2 decades ago . Hell even electromechanical engg wasn't a subject then leave aside what it was earlier. We don't expect 50 year old scientists to be dabbling in them do we ?
I mean are these no brainers or some huge brainwave as professional story teller is pretending it is mostly to cover for his post 8 pm performance here ?
Having said that Modi is to be commended for these "innovations" . The apostrophe marks are deliberate for this isn't normally the way systems in India function irrespective this is the norm worldwide for we are like this only.
If heirarchies were trampled upon & the older lot sidelined how come anachronisms like ADE is still functioning ? I see not one peep from professional story teller on his former / current employer . For good reason too.
The results delivered by the ADE in the real world mirrors the predictions of professional story teller in the virtual world. Both have been delivering lemons consistently . So much so that master storyteller PKS went ahead & died . Poor chap. That's how disappointing both these entities have been. What more can I say ?!
So an equivalence is being drawn between Avinash Chander being sidelined for corruption & Vstol quitting for being sidelined on health grounds . This is the second time allegations have been made against a distinguished scientist & I've yet to see any evidence of it .
In fact if one went data mining for confirmation of this piece of allegation , there's absolutely none of it on the net . Every article & analysis on the subject literally screams Avinash Chander was made an example of for his complacent nature & to send a message down the ranks.
I distinctly recall master storyteller PKS remark Avinash Chander was rather unfortunate for he himself was an industrious person with a significant body of work & achievements behind him & that many of his contemporaries with much worse track records retained their positions but he ended up as an unfortunate scapegoat mostly coz he didn't get along with MP who thought DRDO wasn't serious about frequent slippages in project realisation about which AC didn't do much in spite of repeated warnings / reminders. A message had to be sent & it was with AC getting the boot.
Between professional story teller & master storyteller I'd always go with the latter 100/100. I've seen their track record in analyses ( which is more anal yeast professional story teller's case ) & predictions first hand.
So why do I engage & not engage professional story teller ? For this reason
Looks like HAL might actually keep the promise of Q1 FY27, hah looks like these fkers are finally waking up after the MoD is starting to bring the competition to them.