LCA AF Mk2 (Medium Weight Fighter) - News and discussions

[randomradio]

ma

mate we are bottlenecked by engine production for the tejasmk1a, idk if GE can go beyond 24 per year.
As for the mk2 the IAF has alr said 120 jets at the start expanding to 200 as deliveries start) so HAL is incentivised to build another line as is a private sector partner.

They are expected to deliver 30 engines from next year due to the addition of the larger contract.

HAL won't share Mk2 with a private partner. They will expand the Mk2 lines as necessary. 16 in Nashik and 16+3 in Bangalore. They have sufficient capacity.

 

[randomradio]

Nashik line also depends on Su57. If we go ahead and pull tge trigger on that, personally I can see that happening then it would be even more difficult for HAL to add additional line.

Not happening. Don't get taken in by lobbyists. Next import after Rafale is 6th gen.

HAL will end up building 3 planes in parallel

Mk1A will end in 2032, Mk2 will take over and will continue until 2040. Once Mk2 ends, TEDBF next. None of these in parallel.

Maybe parallel only if export orders come in, but we don't pay that bill.

And then there might be two other companies each building Rafale and AMCA
Not Ideal

1 for Rafale and 1 for AMCA, both private. And Rafale production will be over before AMCA Mk2's begins. LCA Mk2, Rafale, and AMCA Mk1 are in parallel, three different companies.

AMCA and TEDBF could be built in parallel to SCAF/GCAP, again, three different companies.

 

[randomradio]

which is why i asked for a seperate production line for the tejas mk2 using the private line.

IAF offered a private company 180 LCA Mk2s apart from HAL's 118, but there were no takers. Nobody wanted to compete with HAL directly.

Non-HAL programs were given to the private sector instead, Rafale and AMCA.

 

[batman]

Great news. Now sign the deal ASAP.

Hope everything goes well,

France is half a generation ahead of the British in terms of 6th gen, the French are already earning revenue from CMC. The M88 nozzles are CMC, the LEAP engine also uses French CMC. But both countries are obviously on par with 5th gen.

Btw, what we need from the engine is entirely up to us. All the Europeans are giving us is the 5th gen hot parts. If we want VCE or not, it's up to how GTRE designs the cold parts 'cause that's where you decide the airflow, ie, inlet guide vanes and LPC.

P&W's original XA101 from 2017 was quite literally an F135 with a three-stream fan. They had called this the Growth Option 2 for the F-35. Then they worked on a redesigned core with CMC to develop the XA101 to make it more competitive with GE's XA100.

Let me break it down.

AMCA's 5th/6th gen journey by Safran is two phase. First phase, we get a non-adaptive 120 kN engine and the second phase will see a thrust upgrade to 140 kN. The engine will be modular and scalable. The first phase will finish by year 7 and enter production (2036 operational, 2038 AMCA in service), the thrust increase is meant for year 12, so about 15 years from contract before it becomes operational (perhaps 2041?, 2045 for AMCA NG?). And like the F-35's GW 2, the engine will see the front-end cold parts replaced with multi-mode vanes and a new fan module for VCE without touching the hot parts. So Safran delivers the 5th gen engine by year 7 for AMCA and then we adapt it with VCE, AI-integration, next gen thermal management etc (cold parts) and turn it into a 6th gen engine while the French deliver the thrust upgrade (hot parts). In the meantime comes replacing the nickel SX with CMCs, probably for MLU or whenever it becomes available. We may have to develop our own CMCs for the turbines, the French are gonna deliver CMC for other parts.

Rolls-Royce's offer is a better deal in terms of technology. Their engine scales from 120-152 kN. Their core is not from a previous design like M88, it's a new one. It comes natively with VCE instead of France's modular approach. It will be more stealthy in terms of IR signature. But the main drawback is it will take longer develop, which defeats the purpose.

So France offered mature tech whereas UK offered more advanced tech. We were to go by how dangerous we want things to get and we decided to go with France 'cause we are boring.

The French version completely derisks engine for AMCA and the growth potential is also good. With 140 kN, the IAF gets a 14T airframe like SCAF and GCAP, and IN gets a 16T design. AMCA NG could become a 14T tailless design powered by this engine. The IN's next gen aircraft too.



Once a contract is signed, the Europeans tend to deliver. And if geopolitics is a problem, then we can't buy engine tech from 2 European countries while dealing with the same problem. Your geopolitics argument makes more sense if the other partner is non-European due to the potential scale of the seriousness of the problem that;s enough to affect existing contracts signed with Europe.

I like how well written this is, good job.

 

[Tamilan57]

Once a contract is signed, the Europeans tend to deliver. And if geopolitics is a problem, then we can't buy engine tech from 2 European countries while dealing with the same problem. Your geopolitics argument makes more sense if the other partner is non-European due to the potential scale of the seriousness of the problem that;s enough to affect existing contracts signed with Europe.

I mean just because both Britain and France are Europeans, it does not mean both the countries will behave the same way. French have been a little bit better in defence deals with India.

RR serves Britain, US and Germany primarily in terms of being a contractor/subcontractor for engine design/parts.

I just want Indian govt to go ahead with two parallel programs just in case one gets bogged down by geopolitics.

 

[babablacksheep]

I like how well written this is, good job.

& that's how ignorant people get scammed.

I'll keep it short.

Cherry picking info, and using that info to reach a desired conclusion.
Saying one party has commercialised one part of some thing that the other party lags behind, In something as complex as a jet engine & using that a basis to determine one side is *half a generation ahead of other* is deception at best.


1st, as far as tech goes, U.K. does have CMC tech, they haven't commercialised it yet & lack high-volume production scale.

But commercialization of CMC alone is not a viable criteria to say France is half a generation ahead of u.k.

2nd, u.k leads in other areas like new
Carbon-Titanium (CTi) fan blades in testing which are ahead of french 3D Woven carbon Composite fan blades.


As for all the future prediction on amca's engine, what we know so far is that we are likely to sign jv with Safran from 120kn amca engine, rest all future developments are purely in the realm of speculations with no real world basis,based on what one considers to be logical in their own mind.

 

[batman]

& that's how ignorant people get scammed.

I'll keep it short.

Cherry picking info, and using that info to reach a desired conclusion.
Saying one party has commercialised one part of some thing that the other party lags behind, In something as complex as a jet engine & using that a basis to determine one side is *half a generation ahead of other* is deception at best.


1st, as far as tech goes, U.K. does have CMC tech, they haven't commercialised it yet & lack high-volume production scale.

But commercialization of CMC alone is not a viable criteria to say France is half a generation ahead of u.k.

2nd, u.k leads in other areas like new
Carbon-Titanium (CTi) fan blades in testing which are ahead of french 3D Woven carbon Composite fan blades.


As for all the future prediction on amca's engine, what we know so far is that we are likely to sign jv with Safran from 120kn amca engine, rest all future developments are purely in the realm of speculations with no real world basis,based on what one considers to be logical in their own mind.

Learning something new everyday, I know purely on an engineering perspective UK is definitely ahead in terms of design, r&d and experience in engines than France however and I am not very familar with how far both have progressed on the smaller technologies.

 

[babablacksheep]

Learning something new everyday, I know purely on an engineering perspective UK is definitely ahead in terms of design, r&d and experience in engines than France however and I am not very familar with how far both have progressed on the smaller technologies.

I wouldn't say rolls(U.K.) is definitely ahead of Safran(france).

 

[batman]

I wouldn't say rolls(U.K.) is definitely ahead of Safran(france).

I would though, look at the credentials and work both have done so far, they clearly are the only one's who can compete with the Americans.

 

[babablacksheep]

I would though, look at the credentials and work both have done so far, they clearly are the only one's who can compete with the Americans.

Competing with the Americans in what sense?




.......
Relatively conservative next gen engine program.
Ultrafan program rolls,U.k.
Features the world's most powerful aerospace gearbox (64MW), allowing the fan to spin slower while the engine core spins faster for maximum efficiency.





.......

Relatively more radical next gen engine programs.

The CFM RISE program(GE & Safran)
By removing the engine's outer casing (the nacelle), it achieves a bypass ratio of 50:1 or higher. Even the massive UltraFan only reaches 15:1.

The US is also developing the Hybrid Thermally Efficient Core (HyTEC) project.
: Instead of just making the fan bigger (like RR), they are making the engine "core" (the hot part) much smaller and more powerful
It aims to reduce fuel burn by another 10% by the 2030s, potentially making US engines lighter and more compact than the 140-inch wide UltraFan.

 

[batman]

Competing with the Americans in what sense?




.......
Relatively conservative next gen engine program.
Ultrafan program rolls,U.k.
Features the world's most powerful aerospace gearbox (64MW), allowing the fan to spin slower while the engine core spins faster for maximum efficiency.





.......

Relatively more radical next gen engine programs.

The CFM RISE program(GE & Safran)
By removing the engine's outer casing (the nacelle), it achieves a bypass ratio of 50:1 or higher. Even the massive UltraFan only reaches 15:1.

The US is also developing the Hybrid Thermally Efficient Core (HyTEC) project.
: Instead of just making the fan bigger (like RR), they are making the engine "core" (the hot part) much smaller and more powerful
It aims to reduce fuel burn by another 10% by the 2030s, potentially making US engines lighter and more compact than the 140-inch wide UltraFan.

Fair point, I wasn’t saying the UK is beating the US overall, more that Rolls-Royce is one of the very few that can seriously operate at that level in terms of engineering depth.

But you’re right, when you look at where things are going, the approaches are quite different, like the Rolls-Royce UltraFan is a more evolutionary step focusing on efficiency through gearing and fan optimization, whereas programs like CFM RISE and HyTEC are pushing more radical changes in architecture and core performance.

So it’s less about “who can compete” in a straight sense and more that the US ecosystem is attacking multiple directions at once, while others like the UK or Safran are pushing specific areas really hard.

 

[randomradio]

& that's how ignorant people get scammed.

I'll keep it short.

Cherry picking info, and using that info to reach a desired conclusion.
Saying one party has commercialised one part of some thing that the other party lags behind, In something as complex as a jet engine & using that a basis to determine one side is *half a generation ahead of other* is deception at best.


1st, as far as tech goes, U.K. does have CMC tech, they haven't commercialised it yet & lack high-volume production scale.

But commercialization of CMC alone is not a viable criteria to say France is half a generation ahead of u.k.

2nd, u.k leads in other areas like new
Carbon-Titanium (CTi) fan blades in testing which are ahead of french 3D Woven carbon Composite fan blades.


As for all the future prediction on amca's engine, what we know so far is that we are likely to sign jv with Safran from 120kn amca engine, rest all future developments are purely in the realm of speculations with no real world basis,based on what one considers to be logical in their own mind.

France's CMC is not just production-ready, it's already operational in many aircraft. Britain's CMC is still in development.

Rolls-Royce openly says their immediate goal is to catch up with GE and Safran on CMCs.

They will catch up though, but it doesn't change the fact that French tech is already mature while British CMC is still a prototype and yet to begin flight testing.

And stop comparing cold parts with hot parts, that's ridiculous.

And what I said isn't prediction, it's what Safran has offered for AMCA's engine officially. The front module can be upgraded to VCE with just a module change. Only the inlet bay requires very minor changes to accomodate the slightly larger fan.

 

[babablacksheep]

France's CMC is not just production-ready, it's already operational in many aircraft.

**commercialised**

Saying one party has commercialised one part of some thing that the other party lags behind

Britain's CMC is still in development.

Rolls-Royce openly says their immediate goal is to catch up with GE and Safran on CMCs.

Technological Readiness: The tech is "ready" in terms of performance—it has been successfully tested in ground engines like the Rolls-Royce UltraFan.


Commercial Viability: It is not yet fully commercially viable for mass production in the UK due to high costs and the lack of a large-scale domestic supply chain


When Rolls-Royce mentions catching up to Safran, they are primarily referring to commercial industrialization at scale

And stop comparing cold parts with hot parts, that's ridiculous.

CTi (Carbon-Titanium) technology is no less difficult to develop; it simply solves a different set of physics problems. While CMC development focuses on chemical "baking" cycles and heat resistance, CTi development is a masterclass in impact dynamics and structural integrity, requiring a decade of engineering to ensure a lightweight composite can survive a high-velocity bird strike that would shatter standard materials.

And what I said isn't prediction, it's what Safran has offered for AMCA's engine officially

Link?

 

[Tamilan57]

Mk1A and Mk2 in large numbers will scare the shit outta Pakistan. But HAL not even delivering a single MK1A yet scares the shit outta me.

 

[randomradio]

**commercialised**

No clue what you mean by that.

Technological Readiness: The tech is "ready" in terms of performance—it has been successfully tested in ground engines like the Rolls-Royce UltraFan.


Commercial Viability: It is not yet fully commercially viable for mass production in the UK due to high costs and the lack of a large-scale domestic supply chain


When Rolls-Royce mentions catching up to Safran, they are primarily referring to commercial industrialization at scale

Not having the tech ready for operations and having the tech already operational gives you a half generation lead.

Here. First run in 2013. Numbers built by 2019, over 2500. UK's first run expected in 2027. I'm being generous by saying half a generation.

That's how much of a gap we are talking here.

CTi (Carbon-Titanium) technology is no less difficult to develop; it simply solves a different set of physics problems. While CMC development focuses on chemical "baking" cycles and heat resistance, CTi development is a masterclass in impact dynamics and structural integrity, requiring a decade of engineering to ensure a lightweight composite can survive a high-velocity bird strike that would shatter standard materials.

Doesn't matter, it's not hot parts. It's not what we are bothered about. What we care about is their maturity levels in hot parts, because that's what we are paying for.

I need to remind you again that we are talking about AMCA engine or fighter jet engines in general. This tech won't be used in fighters.

Having some advantage in an unrelated area is irrelevant. Like claiming we should buy Typhoon instead of Rafale because Airbus has the A380.

Link?

There ain't none, you need sources.

We have known both engines come with the VCE option since last year, when the contours of the deal were revealed, but not reported by our journalists., probably because it's still under negotiations.

 

[babablacksheep]

No clue what you mean by that

I already mentioned that french CMC tech is commercialised.

Not having the tech ready for operations and having the tech already operational gives you a half generation lead.

Here. First run in 2013. Numbers built by 2019, over 2500. UK's first run expected in 2027. I'm being generous by saying half a generation

Yeah, hard to beleive your conclusion.



Also, you talking about half a generation lead in CMC materials or whole engine?

Doesn't matter, it's not hot parts. It's not what we are bothered about. What we care about is their maturity levels in hot parts, because that's what we are paying for.

It does matter, its needed in the engine, just like hot sections, its hard to develop & take a long time to develop.

I need to remind you again that we are talking about AMCA engine or fighter jet engines in general. This tech won't be used in fighters.

CTi blades will help in weight saving, complex shaping of fan blades, which can further help in increasing fuel efficiency, increasing longitivity & redundancy of not just fan blades but entire cold section.

They have their place.

Its the most lagging aspect that becomes the limiting factor, you need to excel in all relevant engine components & materials.

There ain't none, you need sources.

We have known both engines come with the VCE option since last year, when the contours of the deal were revealed, but not reported by our journalists., probably because it's still under negotiations.

Ah, as always, So just your claim for now.

 

[randomradio]

Also, you talking about half a generation lead in CMC materials or whole engine?

Materials obviously, that's what Tamilan wanted from RR and that's what I've been pointing out. The whole engine is our headache.

It does matter, its needed in the engine, just like hot sections, its hard to develop & take a long time to develop.

We don't need it. It's not going to displace titanium in fighter fan blades.

CTi blades will help in weight saving, complex shaping of fan blades, which can further help in increasing fuel efficiency, increasing longitivity & redundancy of not just fan blades but entire cold section.

They have their place.

Its the most lagging aspect that becomes the limiting factor, you need to excel in all relevant engine components & materials.

Let's stick BVR on A380 then.

You just love going off on a tangent.

Let me refresh your memory on what's happening.
Topic: Tamilan claimed Rolls is technologically superior so we should go with them. I corrected him saying Safran is half a generation ahead in what we want out of the deal.
You: But but CTi. (I want to talk about something completely irrelevant just to dispute what RR said and prove that he's "scamming" people.)
Me: Dude, stick to the topic.
You: But but let's speak about everything under the sun, even stuff that's got nothing to do with what we want just cause... (because I want to appear smart and put down RR in the process by using strawman arguments).

Ah, as always, So just your claim for now.

GTRE told me, and a whole bunch of other people willing to listen, including the media.

It's public knowledge.

What do you think the purpose of the 140 kN engine is when AMCA only needs 120? Why do you think 120 and 140 are being developed in two phases within 12 years when AMCA's next potential for engine change is only in the 2060s? Just use simple logic and you will have your answers without needing a link with somebody stating the obvious. Even Rajnath Singh publicly announced it.

 

[babablacksheep]

Materials obviously, that's what Tamilan wanted from RR and that's what I've been pointing out.

*half a generation ahead in 6th gen* not in CMC materials, but in *6th gen

France is half a generation ahead of the British in terms of 6th gen

Let me refresh your memory on what's happening.
Topic: Tamilan claimed Rolls is technologically superior so we should go with them. I corrected him saying Safran is half a generation ahead in what we want out of the deal

*half a generation ahead in 6th gen* not in CMC materials, but in *6th gen*

France is half a generation ahead of the British in terms of 6th gen

But but let's speak about everything under the sun, even stuff that's got nothing to do with what we want just cause... (because I want to appear smart and put down RR in the process by using strawman arguments).

*half a generation ahead in 6th gen* not in CMC materials, but in *6th gen*

France is half a generation ahead of the British in terms of 6th gen,

GTRE told me, and a whole bunch of other people willing to listen, including the media.

It's public knowledge.

I don't consider you a reliable source.

 

[_Anonymous_]

I don't consider you a reliable source.

Isn't that 120 KN also have something to do with flat rating the engine ? We need 120 KN as per ISA conditions which works out to 130 KN + as per intnl conditions.

Guess professional story teller forgot this detail while hallucinating that conversation post 8 pm . Happens after a particular age due to repeated 8 pm consumption over a period of time.

 

[randomradio]

*half a generation ahead in 6th gen* not in CMC materials, but in *6th gen









*half a generation ahead in 6th gen* not in CMC materials, but in *6th gen*








*half a generation ahead in 6th gen* not in CMC materials, but in *6th gen*

Oh, yeah semantics.

And the CTi isn't even part of any 5th gen or 6th gen engine programs.

I don't consider you a reliable source.

Sure. But the source is GTRE.