J-35 threat to Indian Air Force

Harpy1

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Jun 6, 2025
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We all saw how the superior ranged Pl15 on J10c had India in retreat we lost most likely four planes to Chinese kill chain tactics

I'm concerned that the J35 may give Pakistan tactical air superiority leading to overall strategic supremacy if they plan well with china kill chain and new HQ19 air defense

I envisage all these new goodies to be fully inducted and operational in Pak kill chain by 2030.

Guys we have 5 years
Imo we will respond with
2 more s400 regiments delivered from first order.
26 Rafale M delivered by then navy giving us 62 in total good number
40 upgraded su30mki to super Mki by then I hope more likely 20 only
All 80 mark 1a delivered I hope
Six regiments of Akash prime
More Akashteer systems
3 additional Navic satalites for better coverage

My question challenge is this enough in the interim
Or do we can we add more to arrive by 2030*2032

(I think Pakistan with these additions will be emboldened
 
According to a couple of Indians not only is Rafale more than capable to handle pakee flown export J-35's but more than capable to handle J-20's. Just ignore Rafale or Rafale's getting shot down by Pak flown export J-10 I think the spectra wasn't turned on or something, Right @randomradio? 😬
 
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We all saw how the superior ranged Pl15 on J10c had India in retreat we lost most likely four planes to Chinese kill chain tactics

I'm concerned that the J35 may give Pakistan tactical air superiority leading to overall strategic supremacy if they plan well with china kill chain and new HQ19 air defense

I envisage all these new goodies to be fully inducted and operational in Pak kill chain by 2030.

Guys we have 5 years
Imo we will respond with
2 more s400 regiments delivered from first order.
26 Rafale M delivered by then navy giving us 62 in total good number
40 upgraded su30mki to super Mki by then I hope more likely 20 only
All 80 mark 1a delivered I hope
Six regiments of Akash prime
More Akashteer systems
3 additional Navic satalites for better coverage

My question challenge is this enough in the interim
Or do we can we add more to arrive by 2030*2032

(I think Pakistan with these additions will be emboldened

J-35 with an internally carried PL-15 is a substantial threat.

Employed from their Rmax, it's likely that PL-15's Ph/Pk won't be anything to write home about, but the J-35 will allow them to close the distance considerably, which places a lot of our assets at risk (including AEWs). Fighters may also face increased attrition, which given our limited numbers of 4.5G airframes (many of which have to be held in reserve to address the LAC) we can ill-afford.

So yes, we'll face some restrictions in the freedom we have to employ airpower. Some space will have to be ceded to the PAF, especially in the opening stages of a conflict. Our AEWs will also have to fly further back than otherwise, which lets the PAF enjoy more strategic depth at least in some domains.

As we increase the number of AESA-equipped fighters with SPJs (preferably externally-carried ELL-8222/Scorpius as they seem to have considerably more success in spoofing incoming attacks than internally-carried SPECTRA), we'll start being able to impose our CAPs more effectively. But this is going to take several years of time to build up given all the delays, not to mention it will still require us to take the conflict deep.

In order to negate the look-first/shoot-first advantage that J-35 will give PAF from Day 1 itself, we're gonna need stealthy aircraft of our own. We already have AMCA in the pipeline which should be able to address both J-35 & PLAAF's J-20, but it's a long ways off. It won't be fully operational before 2040 even if we stick to the timeline without any delays.

All other ways of countering stealth aircraft will have us being forced to take the conflict deep, which brings with it mounting international pressure (besides our own peaceniks pressing for ceasefire) as well as opening the doors to all kinds of unintended consequences, while Pakistan would have already racked up several early 'victories'. Basically, we won't come out of that conflict looking good unless we take it deep enough that our advantages come into play. But do we have the wherewithal to keep the conflict going, knowing full well that this is exactly what China wants to bog us down into? That's the question.

The PAF acquisitions are perfectly gamed in concert with China to exploit these geopolitical realities.

And as things stand, this reality will remain for the next 15 years minimum (or till whenever we obtain AMCA in operational form). That's a lot of time for the China-Pak combine to press their advantage in an effort to reshape the dynamics in the neighbourhood with a series of limited conflicts.

This is why I had said for a long time (since much before Op. Sindoor) that we need to obtain a 5th gen aircraft through a G2G deal ASAP, to serve as a stop-gap before AMCA can come in. But if we are unable to obtain it due to any reason, then we're gonna have to reshape our doctrine & thinking entirely - from one geared for responsive, defensive warfare to one that's geared for an offensive, pre-emptive one.

Basically, we need to be the one to initiate the conventional hostilities in an effort to take out as many assets & force-multipliers of the enemy as possible pre-emptively. But unless we actually carry out a false-flag (which is gonna be extremely messy & will have far-reaching domestic & international political consequences if exposed), we're not gonna have a good enough casus belli to initiate large-scale preemptive action.

Additionally, pre-emptive action will also bring risks of its own. Including of a political nature via UNSC which both China & US might want to push, each for their own reasons. Even if vetoed by Russia/France, political consequences of a bilateral nature cannot be stopped. Not to mention, our political class (or the one in any democratic country for that matter, with the possible exception of Israel) has virtually no risk appetite for such actions.

+++++++

Thus, all things considered, the Govt-to-Govt acquisition of a 5th gen fighter as a stop-gap is by far the most sensible option in order to at least cut down on the number of years our adversaries will enjoy their advantage, thereby closing many windows of opportunity for them.

Just my 2 paise.
 
Thus, all things considered, the Govt-to-Govt acquisition of a 5th gen fighter as a stop-gap is by far the most sensible option in order to at least cut down on the number of years our adversaries will enjoy their advantage, thereby closing many windows of opportunity for them.

Just my 2 paise.

F 35 is Not available because of S 400

Infact on Twitter one expert said that Better buy F 15 EX and AIM 260 missiles

I don't think SU 57 is really useful

And time, money and efforts needed to further refine it will have to borne by India

Russia is only interested in replenishing its stock of missiles
Artillery and Drones and SU 35s

They have put SU 57 in the backburner

So we can do the following

Newer Counter stealth radars

More S 400 or even S 500

SU 30 Upgrades with ASTRA MK 3
And GAN AESA and Long Range Anti Radiation Missiles

More Rafales

More Cruise missiles ,and Drones
CATS warrior

We must Aim to Just destroy their Airbases in One Hour

Strike FIRST and Strike Hard
 
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F 35 is Not available because of S 400
A very outdated reason to dismiss F-35, considering the USA's desire to make a sale of F-35 has come from the highest levels. They have stopped the noise around IAF operating S-400, and no, the Turkish example won't work here. Apples v Oranges.
Infact on Twitter one expert said that Better buy F 15 EX and AIM 260 missiles
With 260 Su-30 MKIs and their upcoming MLU (in batches), an F-15EX purchase is no-go considering it brings nothing new to the table which the MKI-MLU won't have and strains the OpEx budget beyond what the IAF is comfortable with.
More S 400 or even S 500
Project Kusha will complement the S-400. S-500 is a BMD, we've got our own BMD Phase-1 (operational) and Phase-2 (in advanced stages of development).
 
Who will do the MKI-sation of SU 57 , it will take 5 years HAL, DRDO or private sector
DRDO, HAL, IAF & UAC. It will be a comprehensive deal with IAF getting Su-57Es with full source codes directly from Russia. The number could be between 20-40 jets first. This is the fastest way to get deliveries and counter J-35s before 2030. Then it will followed by either single-seat Su-57MKI or Su-60MKI manufactured in Nashik HAL. Delivery of this jet will start from 2030 all the way to 2035-40. After that AMCA and then AHCA. This is the best way to counter PAF & PLAAF growing VLO threat.
Better to buy R 37 From Russia
Yes but with our Ku-Band AESA seeker, our own data-links and license-manufactured in India before Gandiva and Astra MK4's production takes over.

PS: PAF would also get full 40 J-35s by 2028-30. So no need to panic just search for correct options and implement.
 
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Su-57, whenever it flies in its definitive form, and then the MKI-fication of it as IAF's potential 5th gen fighter stop-gap, is wishful thinking at best (the MKI-fication part, not the definitive Su-57 flying eventually). Doesn't make sense considering the resources involved (financial and technological, for a stop-gap) when we're already committed to AMCA & Ghatak. It isn't India's job to go rescue a foreign, failed fighter project when our own projects could do with more resources.
 
Yet our babas in the name of indigenous content will compromise on our safety and combat readiness against 5th and 6th gen jets, our jets are at best suited for other 4th gen jets, forget 5th or 6th gen without major upgrades.
 
Yet our babas in the name of indigenous content will compromise on our safety and combat readiness against 5th and 6th gen jets, our jets are at best suited for other 4th gen jets, forget 5th or 6th gen without major upgrades.
Why not go and argue with the self proclaimed Vishwaguru in the Parliament about it? or even stand with a poster outside the road?
This directive comes from the very top with a political agenda attached to it and is aimed for a very long term future prospect, not immediate need. Moaning about it every few weeks or month changes little if nothing, it only exposes a fragile mental health & maturity. If you are so scared maybe take evasive action.

This imaginative 5th 6th gen superiority fantasy is just that, a fantasy until it is proven in real battle and battles/wars are dynamic. Fortune changes quick in the battlefield. Any major chinese incursion will be dealt with paralysing counter effort which will make chinas force recover their own territory way way harder. China know this very well , they will be facing time what Ukr is facing over the past 3 years, unable to recover the 18-20% of land on a flat surface held by the enemy, and here we got mountains to cover.
 
Why not go and argue with the self proclaimed Vishwaguru in the Parliament about it? or even stand with a poster outside the road?
This directive comes from the very top with a political agenda attached to it and is aimed for a very long term future prospect, not immediate need. Moaning about it every few weeks or month changes little if nothing, it only exposes a fragile mental health & maturity. If you are so scared maybe take evasive action.

This imaginative 5th 6th gen superiority fantasy is just that, a fantasy until it is proven in real battle and battles/wars are dynamic. Fortune changes quick in the battlefield. Any major chinese incursion will be dealt with paralysing counter effort which will make chinas force recover their own territory way way harder. China know this very well , they will be facing time what Ukr is facing over the past 3 years, unable to recover the 18-20% of land on a flat surface held by the enemy, and here we got mountains to cover.
I dont know why you are so butthurt and crying over my comment. You want a random civilian to travel near 3000km and protest infront of the government over this decision which is likely not gonna change anything? Also, anyone who remotely has any idea about fighter jets or aerial combat knows the benefits of 5th gen is definitely not fantasy or something from disney or marvel, in the era of bvr combat, advanced stealth, better bvr weapons and detection, better jammers, range etc will all play a significant role during combat, if the advantages of more modern fighter were fake like you believe, our jets wouldnt have been crashed on pakistan and trolled about tea by Pakistani's constantly. Not to mention we are fighting a 2 front war with two nuclear powered nations both of whom will or does possess more advanced jets than us, Su57 is currently the best 5th gen on the market and will serve as a great force multiplier and deterrent against enemy attack and will be our ace for attacking enemy territory, we don't have any significant number of rafale in our arsenal, the su30mki isnt stealthy enough in bvr against newer aircraft and tejas mk1a havent been produced in any meaningful capacity because america got India by the balls, forget the mk2 which didnt even have an engine deal signed yet, amca is in the distant future and the newer indo-french engine is even further beyond and france's very mixed history of joint collaborations make it a real possibility of further delays or problems in the future, the su57 is a great jet for us to sign right now, not signing it now in the name of growing our indigenous tech will bite us in the *censored*. Heck even if by some miracle everything goes smooth, having both AMCA and Su57 would be like having a more powerful f22 and f35 in our arsenal.
 
I dont know why you are so butthurt and crying over my comment. You want a random civilian to travel near 3000km and protest infront of the government over this decision which is likely not gonna change anything?
If you are aware of this then why post in negative manner? Every single aspect of life be it in work, business or war conflict, the positive attitude is first and foremost requirement. You will will not go far without a positive outlook or approach. You need to be confident about your own strength and apply it correctly.

Also, anyone who remotely has any idea about fighter jets or aerial combat knows the benefits of 5th gen is definitely not fantasy or something from disney or marvel, in the era of bvr combat, advanced stealth, better bvr weapons and detection, better jammers, range etc will all play a significant role during combat, if the advantages of more modern fighter were fake like you believe, our jets wouldnt have been crashed on pakistan and trolled about tea by Pakistani's constantly.
Therein lies the mistake in your take, you are easily swayed by opinion of the opposite side who want to destroy you. Ever thought why is that & why not admit their losses which is obvious with proof? because the adversary approach is always for morale upkeep of their population. That is why they have to fabricate and photoshop to create own stories. During war that would not stop their forces from dying & like always they will bend knee very swiftly when the going gets tough. Same logic applies to chinese as well.
Not to mention we are fighting a 2 front war with two nuclear powered nations both of whom will or does possess more advanced jets than us, Su57 is currently the best 5th gen on the market and will serve as a great force multiplier and deterrent against enemy attack and will be our ace for attacking enemy territory, we don't have any significant number of rafale in our arsenal, the su30mki isnt stealthy enough in bvr against newer aircraft and tejas mk1a havent been produced in any meaningful capacity because america got India by the balls, forget the mk2 which didnt even have an engine deal signed yet, amca is in the distant future and the newer indo-french engine is even further beyond and france's very mixed history of joint collaborations make it a real possibility of further delays or problems in the future, the su57 is a great jet for us to sign right now, not signing it now in the name of growing our indigenous tech will bite us in the *censored*. Heck even if by some miracle everything goes smooth, having both AMCA and Su57 would be like having a more powerful f22 and f35 in our arsenal.
No, we are not fighting 2 front war, rather we have a threat from 3 different fronts altogether each of which is with own natural topography challenges. Our armed forces know this very well and they also prepare for the same. In fact every armed forces do the same.

Before going into major operation, it is mandatory to secure your loose ends. This is why China had to slow down in their western part ie our border with them because they started getting heat in the pacific. This is also same reason why USA is slowing on Ukr gradually because they have other operation in mind (possibly). Same reason why before starting this Ukr op, Rus forces did some work in Kazakh or some other neighboring country back in 2021.

About the jets, I question the approach you have in mind vis-a-vis why we have to take the same approach. That is if China put 5th or 6th gen jets, we have to do the same by flying same category of jets. This part is the lure, an arms race without fighting a war which in our present or possibly near future state we can not afford. If the enemy is luring you successfully in it, it means they know their strong point and are playing to it by luring you into a trap where they will beat you with experience. Taking part in an arms race destroyed the multi-cultural Soviet Union, a major factor why China is trying to instill single culture in the country & walking away from multi-culturism. We as a multi cultural country with limited resources & lower GDP certainly can not be part of any such arms race.

China knows this hence keep trying to project this lure time & again, it will continue as we share border. Question is giving a decisive response in a similar fashion how IAF brought Pak AF to its knee. That means instead of flying a 5th or 6th gen jet in front of oppositions same category of jets for counter, we need to have ability to destroy & inflict unsustainable damage to the enemy. Every enemy force understand the response of force & what awaits in response to their aggressive move, that if they try to cause trouble to us then the trouble will find them. China knows this very well & are smart enough, so is the elite ruling class in pak. Its the awam Pakistanis & the foot soldiers+terrorist fraction who are dumb enough to never get the message, there we need not show any mercy & inflict as much damage as possible.

If you get into the enemy trap deliberately just to teach it a lesson in the same language it is using, half of the enemy job is done. It has successfully lured you. Instead of talking, give a huge slap to it and the msg sent will be clear immediately.
 
If you are aware of this then why post in negative manner? Every single aspect of life be it in work, business or war conflict, the positive attitude is first and foremost requirement. You will will not go far without a positive outlook or approach. You need to be confident about your own strength and apply it correctly.
Being confident and being foolish are too very different things, one must make a good and well planned decision before we are confident in its results, you cannot make a dumb decision and say we should be positive when we have the option of making a better one.
Therein lies the mistake in your take, you are easily swayed by opinion of the opposite side who want to destroy you. Ever thought why is that & why not admit their losses which is obvious with proof? because the adversary approach is always for morale upkeep of their population. That is why they have to fabricate and photoshop to create own stories. During war that would not stop their forces from dying & like always they will bend knee very swiftly when the going gets tough. Same logic applies to chinese as well.
I didnt make any mistake, you did. I didn't mention anything about operation sindoor but about events after balakot when babu's with your mindset allowed a 3rd generation jet to intercept enemy 4th generation jets, what was the result? This lack of critical thinking is why our jet was shot down and our pilots captured. If we wont even equip our pilots with the necessary equipment to take down our adversaries, what are we even doing at this point?
No, we are not fighting 2 front war, rather we have a threat from 3 different fronts altogether each of which is with own natural topography challenges. Our armed forces know this very well and they also prepare for the same. In fact every armed forces do the same.
I was only talking about the major military powers our military has to face, if not, we are nearing a 3.5 front situation in the future.
About the jets, I question the approach you have in mind vis-a-vis why we have to take the same approach. That is if China put 5th or 6th gen jets, we have to do the same by flying same category of jets. This part is the lure, an arms race without fighting a bla bla bla...
This is completely laughable, the entire modern world, USA, China, UK, Japan, Korea, Turkey, France, Russia all are pouring billions into 5th and 6th gen technology because it changes combat outcomes. Stealth, BVR dominance, sensor fusion etc arent fantasies, they defined the last 20 years of aerial warfare. F22's 144-0 kill ratio against other 4th gen fighters, f35 remains undetected longer in multiple real missions, j20 patrolling near our borders aren't fantasies.
Arms race trap, we should not match China.
This logic is suicidal,
Deterrence does NOT work by being weaker and hoping “mountains will save us.”
Deterrence works by making the enemy fear the cost of attacking. When china fields stealth jets, awacs saturation, long range pl-15 and pl-21 missiles, drone strikes etc
And you show up with 4th gen jets hoping “terrain” will help, you lose the skies.
Lose the skies = no CAS, no supply lines, no troop movement, no surveillance, no artillery coordination.
Ground warfare collapses instantly without air superiority.
You don’t avoid an arms race by a positive attitude,
You avoid it by maintaining credible parity so the enemy never tries anything.
We as a multi cultural country with limited resources & lower GDP certainly can not be part of any such arms race.
India is a nuclear armed 4 trillion dollar gdp with 80 billion defense expenditure and fastest growing g20 economy, if turkey, korea and japan can develop 5th gen jets, so can us.
India doesn’t need matching tech, just punishment capability.
Punishment capability requires entry into defended airspace. Without stealth or sensor fusion you cannot enter a zone defended by:
HQ-9B, JY-27A anti-stealth radar, J-20 CAP patrols, modern EW,
Try sending Su-30s into that without stealth.
They’ll be painted long before they know what hit them.
Punishment requires survivability, and survivability requires 5th-gen tech.
You wants us to fight a 2035 war with 1999 tools.
 
Being confident and being foolish are too very different things, one must make a good and well planned decision before we are confident in its results, you cannot make a dumb decision and say we should be positive when we have the option of making a better one.

I didnt make any mistake, you did. I didn't mention anything about operation sindoor but about events after balakot when babu's with your mindset allowed a 3rd generation jet to intercept enemy 4th generation jets, what was the result? This lack of critical thinking is why our jet was shot down and our pilots captured. If we wont even equip our pilots with the necessary equipment to take down our adversaries, what are we even doing at this point?

I was only talking about the major military powers our military has to face, if not, we are nearing a 3.5 front situation in the future.

This is completely laughable, the entire modern world, USA, China, UK, Japan, Korea, Turkey, France, Russia all are pouring billions into 5th and 6th gen technology because it changes combat outcomes. Stealth, BVR dominance, sensor fusion etc arent fantasies, they defined the last 20 years of aerial warfare. F22's 144-0 kill ratio against other 4th gen fighters, f35 remains undetected longer in multiple real missions, j20 patrolling near our borders aren't fantasies.

This logic is suicidal,
Deterrence does NOT work by being weaker and hoping “mountains will save us.”
Deterrence works by making the enemy fear the cost of attacking. When china fields stealth jets, awacs saturation, long range pl-15 and pl-21 missiles, drone strikes etc
And you show up with 4th gen jets hoping “terrain” will help, you lose the skies.
Lose the skies = no CAS, no supply lines, no troop movement, no surveillance, no artillery coordination.
Ground warfare collapses instantly without air superiority.
You don’t avoid an arms race by a positive attitude,
You avoid it by maintaining credible parity so the enemy never tries anything.

India is a nuclear armed 4 trillion dollar gdp with 80 billion defense expenditure and fastest growing g20 economy, if turkey, korea and japan can develop 5th gen jets, so can us.

Punishment capability requires entry into defended airspace. Without stealth or sensor fusion you cannot enter a zone defended by:
HQ-9B, JY-27A anti-stealth radar, J-20 CAP patrols, modern EW,
Try sending Su-30s into that without stealth.
They’ll be painted long before they know what hit them.
Punishment requires survivability, and survivability requires 5th-gen tech.
You wants us to fight a 2035 war with 1999 tools.
I am extremely glad people who are in the armed forces & in decision making capacity are nowhere near as doom mentality like yours. I will not reply anymore on this topic to you. Please keep on with your rhetoric. At least I have tools to never see those again.
 
is PAF really getting J35?

I mean after op sindoor PAF did not placed any order for j series jets for their kill chain. but instead gone in completely into US camp to lick Trump's boots. Now they are getting 96 F16 that too with upgrades. along with AIM 120D.

This indicate that their J10 + PL15 + Eri eye Kill chain is weaker than F16 + AIM120D

That is a bad narrative for China.
Also China will not like their J35 parts displayed like PL15 by India. J35 is not J17 , J35 is primary weapon of PLA Navy against US in Taiwan.

Both China and US supporting Pak does not meant they are in same team. They hate each other more than they hate India.

Unless Saudi paying , J35 is not for PAF.

That does not mean we should not prepare for PAF J35.
Before 2030 - only russian version of su57 is possible, we should get a 30/60 of those in a deal such that when Su57MKI comes we return these to russia.
 
is PAF really getting J35?

I mean after op sindoor PAF did not placed any order for j series jets for their kill chain. but instead gone in completely into US camp to lick Trump's boots. Now they are getting 96 F16 that too with upgrades. along with AIM 120D.

This indicate that their J10 + PL15 + Eri eye Kill chain is weaker than F16 + AIM120D

That is a bad narrative for China.
Also China will not like their J35 parts displayed like PL15 by India. J35 is not J17 , J35 is primary weapon of PLA Navy against US in Taiwan.

Both China and US supporting Pak does not meant they are in same team. They hate each other more than they hate India.

Unless Saudi paying , J35 is not for PAF.

That does not mean we should not prepare for PAF J35.
Before 2030 - only russian version of su57 is possible, we should get a 30/60 of those in a deal such that when Su57MKI comes we return these to russia.
The GoI/IAF will likely go for an emergency purchase of Su-57 only if the PAF signs up for J-35.

Right now, the PAF is looking to make up for its F-16/C-130 losses by playing on Trump's ego. Recent SM rumors about PAF losing 2 J-10CE in a mid-air collision could also be a cover for combat losses during Op Sindoor.

Considering the IAF is buying ~300 replacement S-400 rounds, we seem to have shot a shitload of these at PAF tayaaras.

Otherwise, it is a toss between Rafale and Su-57. I doubt GoI would consider funding two parallel fighter projects until things reach the tipping point.

The IAF, as usual, is fixated on the Rafale to the point of neglecting the upgrade of the only big stick in its fleet -the MKI.

As per a recent HT report, GoI has been lukewarm to Russian offers for Su-57 and other hardware during Putin's visit. This could be because the IAF has indicated a need to fill the medium mrca gap in its inventory (with Rafale, Mk2 and AMCA in the 30s and 40s)

Considering how the negotiations for 3 P75AS subs stalled over the steep cost, the GoIs insistence on 60% ToT+source code for Rafale is likely going to end up the same way.

With the LCA Mk1A and Mk2 programs crawling along, the outlook till 2030 isn't looking very bright for the IAF.
 
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