Islamic Republic of Pakistan : News, Discussions & Updates

_Anonymous_

Senior Member
Dec 4, 2017
14,147
10,175
Mumbai
@Ginvincible

If you think this is somewhat out of place , you've no clue how out of place this is. What's today Uzbekistan used to be ancient Sogdia. Around the time of Genghis Khan's the Iranian speaking people of the same ethnicity were replaced to a large extent by Mongols. By the time of Timur & his descendants these Mongols were significantly Turkified & culturally were Persianised. It's from here that we get the biracial Turco Mongols.

To cut a long story' short , Babur a Timurid along with the rest of his relatives were conquered by Mohd Shaybani Khan the consolidator of Uzbek tribes who drove out the Timurids from Central Asia those he couldn't conquer or kill & settled those lands with his people - the Uzbeks in the late 15th - early 16th century which resulted in Babur leading a destitute life for quite some time before he landed up fortuitously with the kingdom of Kabul & from there he made his way into India .

Mohammad Shaybani Khan was a hated figure for all Turco Mongols & was always considered a national hero in Uzbekistan. The legacy of Timur & his descendants like Babur is only recently acknowledged & honoured .

So you see schizophrenia isn't exactly confined to one nation out here. Paxtanis of course or rather the land & people of what's now Paxtan were subjected to repeated depredations of the Moghuls when Babur was based in Kabul launching probing missions into India under the Lodi Empire.

As to how bad these depredations were you'd find a good account of them in Guru Nanak Dev's janamsakhis . Unarguably his formation of a proto Sikh society which reached fruition under the 10th Guru Gobind Singhji who established the Khalsa - practised communal living & eating & also was supposed to aid each other in times of distress transcending caste barriers was something revolutionary for it's times & had its roots in the conquests & looting expeditions sandwiched as the Hindus were between an exploitative Lodi Empire who treated them as second class citizens & the Moghuls or Turco Mongols for whom they were fair game because of their inherent prosperity & given the fact that they were kaffirs to begin with.

Into this the Muslims of Punjab were also caught up & paid an equally heavy price in terms of being looted . Not so much in terms of casualties although in the eyes of the Lodis or other Pashtuns / Afghans , the Persians & the Turco Mongols , local H converts to Islam were always lesser beings.

It's this lot in Uzbekistan & Paxtan which would be honouring Babur .
 

Ginvincible

Well-Known member
Dec 5, 2017
444
467
Ohio
@Ginvincible

If you think this is somewhat out of place , you've no clue how out of place this is. What's today Uzbekistan used to be ancient Sogdia. Around the time of Genghis Khan's the Iranian speaking people of the same ethnicity were replaced to a large extent by Mongols. By the time of Timur & his descendants these Mongols were significantly Turkified & culturally were Persianised. It's from here that we get the biracial Turco Mongols.

To cut a long story' short , Babur a Timurid along with the rest of his relatives were conquered by Mohd Shaybani Khan the consolidator of Uzbek tribes who drove out the Timurids from Central Asia those he couldn't conquer or kill & settled those lands with his people - the Uzbeks in the late 15th - early 16th century which resulted in Babur leading a destitute life for quite some time before he landed up fortuitously with the kingdom of Kabul & from there he made his way into India .

Mohammad Shaybani Khan was a hated figure for all Turco Mongols & was always considered a national hero in Uzbekistan. The legacy of Timur & his descendants like Babur is only recently acknowledged & honoured .

So you see schizophrenia isn't exactly confined to one nation out here. Paxtanis of course or rather the land & people of what's now Paxtan were subjected to repeated depredations of the Moghuls when Babur was based in Kabul launching probing missions into India under the Lodi Empire.

As to how bad these depredations were you'd find a good account of them in Guru Nanak Dev's janamsakhis . Unarguably his formation of a proto Sikh society which reached fruition under the 10th Guru Gobind Singhji who established the Khalsa - practised communal living & eating & also was supposed to aid each other in times of distress transcending caste barriers was something revolutionary for it's times & had its roots in the conquests & looting expeditions sandwiched as the Hindus were between an exploitative Lodi Empire who treated them as second class citizens & the Moghuls or Turco Mongols for whom they were fair game because of their inherent prosperity & given the fact that they were kaffirs to begin with.

Into this the Muslims of Punjab were also caught up & paid an equally heavy price in terms of being looted . Not so much in terms of casualties although in the eyes of the Lodis or other Pashtuns / Afghans , the Persians & the Turco Mongols , local H converts to Islam were always lesser beings.

It's this lot in Uzbekistan & Paxtan which would be honouring Babur .

From what I gather, there isn't a lot to be hopeful about in Pakistan now-a-days. A failing economy, rampant insurgencies, crumbling social services, education standards nonexistent/dropped across the board and having the stigma of being the face of state sponsored terrorism. If they feel some pride or maybe take inspiration in unrelated people centuries past then there's something at least.

India should encourage chest thumping and reminiscing about "their" glory days instead of actually focusing on improving their society from the ground up to be something that could become modern day Mughals.
 
  • Like
Reactions: _Anonymous_

_Anonymous_

Senior Member
Dec 4, 2017
14,147
10,175
Mumbai
From what I gather, there isn't a lot to be hopeful about in Pakistan now-a-days. A failing economy, rampant insurgencies, crumbling social services, education standards nonexistent/dropped across the board and having the stigma of being the face of state sponsored terrorism. If they feel some pride or maybe take inspiration in unrelated people centuries past then there's something at least.
Actually apart from a failing economy, the rest suit the ruling elite aka the PA just fine. It establishes their indispensability to Paxtan.

There's an interesting theory as to what's happening in Afghanistan or rather what the US is planning for Afghanistan where inevitably in US calculations as in the past the PA figures in prominently. As usual whenever they're up the creek the US bails them out by partnering them in some infernal enterprise for which the PA duly extract their pound of flesh.

I'd tag you in the Afghanistan thread

India should encourage chest thumping and reminiscing about "their" glory days instead of actually focusing on improving their society from the ground up to be something that could become modern day Mughals.
They actually don't need India to provide any sort of encouragement nor can India actually provide it but the sense of hubris this provides them in times like this spurs them on to misadventures which we duly endure & punish inadequately setting the stage for a deja vu sometime in the future.