Indian Nuclear Attack Submarine (Project 77) - Updates & Discussions
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Offical date is 2036, so +1 or +2 years. They will commissioned in parallel with the S5 class.
Any clarity on when the follow-on batches/blocks will be approved for construction given that the requirement under Project 77 is to have 6 SSNs?
This will be very very optimistic timeline even though strategic project like this , both ssn & ssbn, run more smoothly & timely. But commissioning by 2036 when it is yet to start building or even close to making the jig setup for it? Last sub that was launched in 2017 is supposed to get commissioned by next year?
Suppose it is now known by many so no harm to show, as per members who have better understanding on this topic, this work from few months ago is related. Total timeline is spread for 36 months work.
@Ashwin after that I/d/r/w, I think we need to ban stuff from this particular x handle too.
Maybe we should report this guy to PIB too. Although knowing those babus from previous experience, probably they won't look at the complaint for days.
This may sound fantastic but what choice does Russia have if they want beat competition from the French Suffren for India's P77 pie? The Akula 1s are an ageing class and even the Bratsk (soon to be INS Chakra-3) was sourced after much effort, evaluating multiple hulls.
The rumored Chinese Type 095 (follow on to the existing Shang class) class is likely to be on par with the Akula at the very least.
Chinese Submarine Warfare – A Natural Evolution or Game Changing Revolution?
In a submarine arms race between China and the US, the PLAN appears to be closing the gap.
www.rusi.org
The IN will be looking to get a next-gen boat to counter it in the 2035-40 time frame. Yasen fits the bill perfectly.
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Key word here is rumoured...... Which is what it is, just rumour...... Chinese making improvement to reduce their noisy subs noise level is well known but saying they are anywhere close to akula and that to improved Akula class is outright delusional......... You are falling to typical CCP bots propaganda about we wuz ch1ng & Ch0ng until their might subs touches ocean & can be heard from ocean away.This may sound fantastic but what choice does Russia have if they want beat competition from the French Suffren for India's P77 pie? The Akula 1s are an ageing class and even the Bratsk (soon to be INS Chakra-3) was sourced after much effort, evaluating multiple hulls.
The rumored Chinese Type 095 (follow on to the existing Shang class) class is likely to be on par with the Akula at the very least.
Chinese Submarine Warfare – A Natural Evolution or Game Changing Revolution?
In a submarine arms race between China and the US, the PLAN appears to be closing the gap.
The IN will be looking to get a next-gen boat to counter it in the 2035-40 time frame. Yasen fits the bill perfectly.
Even Indian nuclear boomers are much quieter than there Chinese counterparts...... massive improvements & breakthrough happened developing INS Aridhaman which put it in different class all together when come to reduced noise levels & will help us developing subs on par with western counterparts going forward
I agree. This would most likely be on offer for the next block of submarines we build. Whether that's part of the remainder of submarines under Project 77 Alpha or a new project remains to be seen.This may sound fantastic but what choice does Russia have if they want beat competition from the French Suffren for India's P77 pie? The Akula 1s are an ageing class and even the Bratsk (soon to be INS Chakra-3) was sourced after much effort, evaluating multiple hulls.
The rumored Chinese Type 095 (follow on to the existing Shang class) class is likely to be on par with the Akula at the very least.
Chinese Submarine Warfare – A Natural Evolution or Game Changing Revolution?
In a submarine arms race between China and the US, the PLAN appears to be closing the gap.
The IN will be looking to get a next-gen boat to counter it in the 2035-40 time frame. Yasen fits the bill perfectly.
Alternatively we could access select tech from the Yasen class for the Russians may have already frozen plans to build the next class of SSNs post Yasen class.
Hence whatever is on offer is not exactly state of the art from the Russian PoV . We need more such offers for cutting edge tech & if it's not on offer, we shouldn't be shy of demanding the tech.
Equally we must be open to loosening our purse strings for such tech & shed our stingy negotiations till death approach.
P77 is to be built in 3 tranches of 2 boats each as per reports. It will likely follow the same iterative approach as the SSBN prog (S2 - S4* - S5).
The Russians do not have a contemporary SSK to offer at the moment. Now that the Kalvari B2 project is stalled, France is trying to make inroads into the SSN segment. If the Russians want to avoid losing the Indian sub market altogether, they will have to open the vault and bring out their best wares.
Imo, our ultimate choice would depend on how the new 190-200MWe NNR reactor pans out. If we have managed to glean enough design data from the Chakra-2s OK-650B system to build our own, then we might be able to cherry pick the best of French and Russian tech for P77.
If not, we'll have no choice but to go with Russia all the way.
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Conventional, of course. India has always maintained a clear demarcation between strategic and conventional assets.
I'd imagine P77 will be the prime carrier for HCMs in the anti-ship role similar to that played by Soviet Oscar SSNs against USN CBGs at the height of the Cold War.
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Apart from stealth & other tech , the French can't offer us reactor tech . Not only is it prohibited under the NPT ( not sure about this fact as the N reactor we built for the Arihant class was not strictly under ToT but what we termed "Russian consultancy . Reasons offered was the Russians didn't want to fall foul of their NPT regulations . Same reasoning offered for AUKUS ) but also the French submarine N reactors use LEU < 20% enrichment figures unlike the Russians who use HEU with enrichment between 20-45% .
You can't have two different types of N reactors within the same class. I'd argue you can't have two different types of N reactors within your submarine fleet as well as it creates tremendous logistical issues.
What can be done as a via media is either the IN / MoD goes with the French philosophy or the Russian philosophy as far as SSNs go since the N reactors for the SSBNs are already built to Russian specifications.
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True that. SSN reactor tech will likely not be on the table. Incidentally, the French Areva EPR civil reactor project in Jaitapur is yet to take off. It's been over a decade already.
The French are mainly offering pumpjet propulsion tech to India as per reports.
But apart from that, India is likely interested in Thales sonars (esp towed sonar now that the NPOL Nagan prog is cancelled) and possibly combat management system (athough the proposed Kalvari B2 line was to have an indigenous CMS, replacing the SUBTICS system on B1 boats)
I suspect the IN also wants to move away from Akula-inspired double hulled designs for its SSN fleet. Single hulled boats have a lower acoustic signature.
Besides, the Scorpene design is not that different from the Suffren SSN. The IN might want to use a familiar hull form for P77 as a risk reduction measure.
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The Jaitapur N power plant isn't taking off due to GoI lethargy. There were massive local protests which initially stalled the project. In between there was news the project would be shifted outside Maharashtra. Nothing has moved since.
That's outdated thinking .
I'm of the opinion the recent statement by the Naval Chief of finalising the deal for the Scorpenes Block 2 after the Project 75 I has something to do with technology transfer negotiations regarding Project 77 .
Otherwise it makes no sense to postpone the finalisation when the entire line is idling away. Just thinking aloud.
The Russians certainly don't seem to think so. They are now making a break with tradition and going single-hull with the Yasen class. Although they are probably doing so for cost reasons.
Double hull subs trade speed/maneuverability for survivability and make imminent sense for strategic missile roles. But if you want to sprint at 35 knots sustained, you'll need a lighter single hull boat.
As for stealth, the US LA/Virginia class boats are significantly quieter than their RU counterparts, the Akula. Assuming both have comparable silencing tech, it the lack of an outer hull that makes the difference.
I sure hope so. After the eye-watering amount of money, the IN spent with NG for the integration and certification of DRDO AIP + HWT on Kalvari, it'd be an epic blunder if we abandoned the line.
Plus there are prospects of export orders coming in for MDL (most ikely from the Phillipines).
Naval Group, Mazagon Shipbuilders extend pact for submarine exports
This renewed MoU builds upon the original agreement signed in July 2023, reaffirming the long-standing Indo-French partnership in the field of submarine design
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Yasen is not exactly a single hull design you can call it a 1 & half hull design.
Latest Russian double hull Borei-A SSBN are doubly quite than Virginia class...... 1 & a half hull Yasen-M are as quite as there western counterparts despite not using pump-jet...... Double hull being inherently noiser than single hull is a myth.
I was under the impression double hulls have a dual function . The first being safety , the second being sound attenuation.
Russian tech not being as advanced as the west , they worked around problems to generate solutions.
Moreover in the 1980s IIRC the then SU imported latest state of the art 5 axes CNC machines IIRC to machine propeller blades of submarines on such a manner so as to reduce their acoustic signature significantly much in the same way UK sold the RR Nene Turbojet Engine to the USSR which the latter promptly reverse engineered thus creating a new family of jet engines to power the MiG-15 , MiG 17 etc .
This led to a major diplomatic incident between the rest of the alliance led by the US & Japan .
So as you see the USSR / RF has come up with solutions to keep them in the race & while the solutions developed may not be superior or even equal to the US & the other western powers , it's made sure the gap isn't significant either.
/south block has come up with a post to this effect on response to yours.
Frankly why exactly are we going in for an enlarged Scorpene is beyond me when we're also negotiating & in the process of finalising the Project 75 I shortly which is for a similar class of submarines , unless of course the IN wants to compare both designs & incorporate the best features of either submarine in the said project.I sure hope so. After the eye-watering amount of money, the IN spent with NG for the integration and certification of DRDO AIP + HWT on Kalvari, it'd be an epic blunder if we abandoned the line.
Plus there are prospects of export orders coming in for MDL (most ikely from the Phillipines).
Naval Group, Mazagon Shipbuilders extend pact for submarine exports
This renewed MoU builds upon the original agreement signed in July 2023, reaffirming the long-standing Indo-French partnership in the field of submarine designwww.business-standard.com
Otherwise it makes sense to continue building the same hull with the latest in sensors , CMS , stealth features , etc within the same hull.
I very much doubt NG is going to be supportive of their designs being exported by us to third countries. I also doubt NG would use us as a mfg hub for submarines for export to third countries.
Recently it was reported they came down heavily on TKMS for exporting submarine tech to RoK & Turkey thus creating competition. Their entire strategy lies in ensuring they control tech thus ensuring the knowledge & know why / know how remains within a few hands.