Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Gautam

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Feb 16, 2019
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Anti-tank missile completes all trials

By Dinakar Peri
NEW DELHI, SEPTEMBER 19, 2021 22:18 IST
1632077598950.png

Defence mode: The Air Force had asked for the feasibility of integrating the Helina on the Light Combat Helicopter.

Process for issuing Acceptance of Necessity by Army for Helina has started, says Project Director

The helicopter-launched Nag Anti-Tank Guided Missile (ATGM), Helina, being developed indigenously, has completed all trials and the process for issuing of Acceptance of Necessity (AoN) by the Army has started, said Sachin Sood, Project Director of Helina and Dhruvastra at the Defence Research and Development Laboratory (DRDL) Hyderabad, a laboratory of the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO).

“The launcher and missile are ready. There are some Human-Machine Interface [HMI] to be realised, which are going on now,” Dr. Sood told The Hindu.

While the cost estimate was yet to be done, each missile was expected to cost under ₹1 crore, and around 500 missiles and 40 launchers would be required initially, he added.

1632077744472.png


Once the AoN is issued, the Request for Proposal (RFP) would be issued. Some firing trials would be done from the first production lot by the Army at a later stage.

Helina is a third-generation fire-and-forget class ATGM mounted on an indigenous Advanced Light Helicopter (ALH), and has a minimum range of 500 metres and a maximum range of 7 kilometres. All issues with the minimum range had been sorted out and the integration with other weapons on the platform was over, said Dr. Sood.

Stating that the Air Force had asked for the feasibility of integrating the Helina on the soon-to-be inducted Light Combat Helicopter (LCH), Dr. Sood said this would be done and would bring in economies of scale in the production of the missile. “There is also very good export potential,” Dr. Sood added.

Anti-tank missile completes all trials
 

Lolwa

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Feb 6, 2020
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Sure they can. But how much weight addition will that cause ? If we reduce the weight of the vanes will they be able to survive the ablation damages ? There are always questions like that. Hence the need for testing.

What kind of TVC ? Jet vane or nozzle actuation ? Since most our missiles use jet vane control it makes sense to go with that. That way the Mk-1 UT project's results can be used for Mk2

So IN & IAF are in. Anything from IA ?
I feel they will be added to the rocket force.
 

Ankit Kumar

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Nov 30, 2017
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Anti-tank missile completes all trials

By Dinakar Peri
NEW DELHI, SEPTEMBER 19, 2021 22:18 IST
View attachment 21057
Defence mode: The Air Force had asked for the feasibility of integrating the Helina on the Light Combat Helicopter.

Process for issuing Acceptance of Necessity by Army for Helina has started, says Project Director

The helicopter-launched Nag Anti-Tank Guided Missile (ATGM), Helina, being developed indigenously, has completed all trials and the process for issuing of Acceptance of Necessity (AoN) by the Army has started, said Sachin Sood, Project Director of Helina and Dhruvastra at the Defence Research and Development Laboratory (DRDL) Hyderabad, a laboratory of the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO).

“The launcher and missile are ready. There are some Human-Machine Interface [HMI] to be realised, which are going on now,” Dr. Sood told The Hindu.

While the cost estimate was yet to be done, each missile was expected to cost under ₹1 crore, and around 500 missiles and 40 launchers would be required initially, he added.

View attachment 21058

Once the AoN is issued, the Request for Proposal (RFP) would be issued. Some firing trials would be done from the first production lot by the Army at a later stage.

Helina is a third-generation fire-and-forget class ATGM mounted on an indigenous Advanced Light Helicopter (ALH), and has a minimum range of 500 metres and a maximum range of 7 kilometres. All issues with the minimum range had been sorted out and the integration with other weapons on the platform was over, said Dr. Sood.

Stating that the Air Force had asked for the feasibility of integrating the Helina on the soon-to-be inducted Light Combat Helicopter (LCH), Dr. Sood said this would be done and would bring in economies of scale in the production of the missile. “There is also very good export potential,” Dr. Sood added.

Anti-tank missile completes all trials
Ah. Finally start the mass production for LCH army variant.
 

Ankit Kumar

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Nov 30, 2017
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Bangalore
why does a locally produced missile cost so much? At this rate it looks it is cheaper to buy a consumer car , load it up with fertilizers and roll it down the enemy lines.
Its slightly higher for the first batch. Army is going to have 100+ Rudras and around the same numbers of LCH. So a much larger order awaits. Once that is realised, the cost will drop.
Hope we ll start developing guide d rockets too...
Navy should get an insight on the similar system once MH60Rs get into operations. Once that happens, other arms too will want similar capabilities.
 

Gautam

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why does a locally produced missile cost so much?
Initial batch. The money involved isn't just for the missiles & launchers. But also for setting up the production line & other non-recurring costs. The next batches won't be as pricey.
At this rate it looks it is cheaper to buy a consumer car , load it up with fertilizers and roll it down the enemy lines.
LOL :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO:
You want the Army to use VB-IEDs ?!?!
Hope we ll start developing guide d rockets too...
I got my hopes up when I saw the IIR & laser guided rockets VEM was developing.
1632132557553.png

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But nobody was interested in buying them. I don't know if they are still working on these rockets. If VEM & Solar Industries work together they can probably develop a lot of the guided munitions we need. Most of the lower end of the capability spectrum can be filled by these guys.


Its pointless to get the DRDO to make everything. But the services think otherwise.
 

Lolwa

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Feb 6, 2020
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Delhi
Hope we ll start developing guide d rockets too...
We have requirement of three things
1.) Spike Nlos equivalent (25km)
2.) Brimstone equivalent (30-60km)
3.) MAM-T,MAM-L micromuniton equivalent(8-60km)
All our A2G requirements will be fulfilled if they are integrated with our drones,LCH,Rudra,AJT Hawk and Tejas...
Its slightly higher for the first batch. Army is going to have 100+ Rudras and around the same numbers of LCH. So a much larger order awaits. Once that is realised, the cost will drop.

Navy should get an insight on the similar system once MH60Rs get into operations. Once that happens, other arms too will want similar capabilities.
Does the Rudra have the capability to carry troops??
You want the Army to use VB-IEDs ?!?!
Honestly not a bad idea suicide UGV's. But our terrain won't allow it. Though they will be exceptionally useful against the Chinese
 

Lolwa

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Feb 6, 2020
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Delhi
You can't make up requirement based on what's available in the market. Services has to say that.
Obviously but the services would be facing similar type of munitions. Since the turks will definitely start supplying smart munitions to the Pakistanis. And we aren't buying either the spike Nlos or the Brimstone. And we have nothing close to similar systems in armed forces forget the platforms. I doubt our herons can even launch spike NLOS. But integrating munitions like this on the tejas and lch will give us huge breathing space for the rest of the air force for A2A operations..
 

Chain Smoker

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Mar 2, 2020
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india
We have requirement of three things
1.) Spike Nlos equivalent (25km)
2.) Brimstone equivalent (30-60km)
3.) MAM-T,MAM-L micromuniton equivalent(8-60km)
All our A2G requirements will be fulfilled if they are integrated with our drones,LCH,Rudra,AJT Hawk and Tejas...

Does the Rudra have the capability to carry troops??

Honestly not a bad idea suicide UGV's. But our terrain won't allow it. Though they will be exceptionally useful against the Chinese
We already have SANT.
 

Ashwin

Agent_47
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Nov 30, 2017
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Obviously but the services would be facing similar type of munitions. Since the turks will definitely start supplying smart munitions to the Pakistanis. And we aren't buying either the spike Nlos or the Brimstone. And we have nothing close to similar systems in armed forces forget the platforms. I doubt our herons can even launch spike NLOS. But integrating munitions like this on the tejas and lch will give us huge breathing space for the rest of the air force for A2A operations..
No it's not entirely. Versions of Brimstone and hellfire are developed for anti terror ops over free airspace. Warheads are made smaller to cause less casualties.

Our NLOS comparable is SANT. Which was tested multiple time. Of course, Spike NLOS is one a kind.

We should have answer for AFT-10 which is SANT. Turkish do not bring anything special to the table.
 
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jetray

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Mar 15, 2018
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Initial batch. The money involved isn't just for the missiles & launchers. But also for setting up the production line & other non-recurring costs. The next batches won't be as pricey.
shouldn't that be incrementally amortized in the coming years say next 5 years.
LOL :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO:
You want the Army to use VB-IEDs ?!?!
economically it makes sense, if our goal is to thwart or delay the enemy all we need to do is create more barriers for their advancement. Old used cheap cars with subsidized fertilizer will more cost effective.
With 1cr per piece missile assuming conservative hit ratio of 50% we will be burning more cash at the end of the day. If the war continues for more than 15 days then it simply becomes unaffordable to keep fighting. Remember at the end of the day there is no profit only a hole in balance sheet which would needs to be patched up from other productive places like agri or infra.
Its slightly higher for the first batch. Army is going to have 100+ Rudras and around the same numbers of LCH. So a much larger order awaits. Once that is realised, the cost will drop.
Hope so, as said we need to amortize these costs in coming years. I think if we can export it and recoup the cost that will be great. At these prices war is an expensive option.
 

Gautam

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Feb 16, 2019
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shouldn't that be incrementally amortized in the coming years say next 5 years.
Could've worked better if the initial order was larger & if the economic condition was better.
economically it makes sense, if our goal is to thwart or delay the enemy all we need to do is create more barriers for their advancement. Old used cheap cars with subsidized fertilizer will more cost effective.
The flat plains of Rajasthan might support remote controlled VB-IEDs. The more mountainous terrain of the North can't. Besides there are moral concerns to using civilian vehicles as VB-IEDs. Tactics like these are used by radical yahoos, not professional militaries. If we are to use them we will need specialized UGV for that role.

Kalyani is working on a few UGVs. Maybe we could use those as the platform. They will also be cheaper than civilian vehicles.
With 1cr per piece missile assuming conservative hit ratio of 50% we will be burning more cash at the end of the day. If the war continues for more than 15 days then it simply becomes unaffordable to keep fighting. Remember at the end of the day there is no profit only a hole in balance sheet which would needs to be patched up from other productive places like agri or infra.
Yes, if we are going to war tomorrow we will use the 500 ordered Helinas but not the tens of thousands of other ATGMs that we have. Come on.

Where is that 50% figure coming form ? HeliNa's seeker has the newer 640x512 MWIR sensor, that allows a 4 km lock-on range & SSPK of >90%. The MWIR was first tested in September 2016. If I recall every test of the MWIR sensor has been a success. The initial sensor on the Nag family was the 128x128 LWIR sensor that gave it a lock-on range of 2.5 km & a SSPK of 77%.

I understand the point you are trying to make with the profit/loss argument but still I have to ask. Agriculture is productive ?!?! At which level micro or macro ? If it is so productive shouldn't it become profitable at a macro scale at some point ?

I've never heard of a productive business that require such incredible amounts of subsidies & loan moratoriums/waivers year after year. Which other business have received such continued official largesse from central & state govts ? I understand agriculture is necessary, but productive might be a little too far.
 

Gautam

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Tripura, NE, India
HELINA is supposedly Army variant while Dhruvastra is IAF variant. @Gautam what are the performance differences?
@hellbent made this poster:
1632219228633.png

The 2 missiles are mostly the same. There is a difference in thrust vectoring mechanism though. Dhruvastra's JVC should allow the IAF to do some very steep angle targeting, but that would come at the price of speed. IA's Helina should be a faster missile & better suited for plains.

I am not sure why they are doing this though. Maybe the plan is to deploy IA's attack helos around Rajasthan & Gujarat. While the IAF deploys their helos at higher altitudes up North. Remember IAF's Apaches & LCHs are being deployed in Ladhak.
Dhruvastra is air to surface missile it can carry wide variety of warhead.
Helina is also an AGM like Dhruvastra & SANT.
 

randomradio

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Nov 30, 2017
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@hellbent made this poster:
View attachment 21064
The 2 missiles are mostly the same. There is a difference in thrust vectoring mechanism though. Dhruvastra's JVC should allow the IAF to do some very steep angle targeting, but that would come at the price of speed. IA's Helina should be a faster missile & better suited for plains.

I am not sure why they are doing this though. Maybe the plan is to deploy IA's attack helos around Rajasthan & Gujarat. While the IAF deploys their helos at higher altitudes up North. Remember IAF's Apaches & LCHs are being deployed in Ladhak.

Helina is also an AGM like Dhruvastra & SANT.

If there's no major difference in performance, then I feel they created the differences for political reasons. With the army being the bigger user of attack helicopters, they will end up having more influence in the development of the main weapon. With the Dhruvastra, the IAF gets to make their own contract for their own version. And then by pushing for HELINA's induction as well, they get some influence over the army's main weapon too.

The Dhruvastra may have been designed for SEAD/DEAD with multiple seeker options.

Or jet vane provides greater performance or cost benefits, so it's jut a natural advancement over the HELINA.