Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Kshithij Sharma

Well-Known member
Dec 4, 2017
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India
Try using your brains for once, instead of acting like a child. And before posting rubbish on things you have no idea about it, read.
Do your words make any point other than raising vague questions? Stop posting rubbish and instead speak with points and clarifications. If not, read and then come back. Till then take a hike
 

suryakiran

Team StratFront
Dec 1, 2017
784
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Bangalore
Do your words make any point other than raising vague questions? Stop posting rubbish and instead speak with points and clarifications. If not, read and then come back. Till then take a hike

Hint for you. Variables and environment. Go figure. Instead of expecting to be spoon fed after every nonsense you have been posting, read up before posting. Or maybe @Ashwin @randomradio @Hellfire will explain in detail. Sorry, me not doing.
 
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Ashwin

Agent_47
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Laser fuse for Astra is already under development.

Any idea about the application of Laser seeker ? (Sudarshan is closed) @Arpit @ni8mare @GuardianRED
 

GuardianRED

Call Sign "RED"
Dec 2, 2017
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Laser fuse for Astra is already under development.

Any idea about the application of Laser seeker ? (Sudarshan is closed) @Arpit @ni8mare @GuardianRED
This is interesting, your post reminding me of the Starstreak Missile



Starstreak - Wikipedia

and from the link (editied for this post)

Advantages over infrared homing guided, radar homing guided, and radio command guidance

 

lcafanboy

Senior member
Dec 22, 2017
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India ‘arm twisted’ to buy Spike, not Javelin missiles? : Congress Mouth Piece
Published January 20, 2018 | By admin SOURCE: National Herald


Cancelled by the defence ministry three weeks ago was for 321 ATGM launchers and 8,356 missiles worth Rs 3,200 Crore. In addition, Rafael Advanced Defence Systems was required to transfer technology to Bharat Dynamics Limited (BDL). Army chief General Rawat had confirmed that the tender had been cancelled and it had been decided to get the ATGM missiles developed indigenously by the DRDO. But since DRDO was not in a position to supply the missiles before 2021-22, General Rawat had voiced his concern was how to bridge the gap till then. But by opting for ‘Spike’ missiles from Israel, India has abandoned the choice of buying better and next generation missiles from the US and France. Defence industry sources say that the US ‘Javelin’ ATGM built by Lockheed Martin has a range of 4000 meters while Spike has a range of only 2500 meters. Both the American and the French missile are said be more versatile ‘fire and forget’ missiles which zero in on targets more accurately and faster while giving time to the infantry to scoot to safety. Significantly, the Modi Government had finalised the deal in 2014 and the pricing had also been finalised in 2016 when Manohar Parrikar was the defence minister. Unsatisfactory performance during field tests is said to have prompted defence experts to suggest that India should build the missiles on its own. Brigadier (Rtd) Gurmeet Kanwal told NH that India being one of the major buyers of defence equipment from Israel, India cannot go against Israel’s interests.

India ‘arm twisted’ to buy Spike, not Javelin missiles? : Congress Mouth Piece - Indian Defence Research Wing .
 

lcafanboy

Senior member
Dec 22, 2017
1,881
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Bangalore
Part of S-400 shipment to China damaged by storm

Saturday, January 20, 2018 By: TASS Source Link: CLICK HERE



Part of the equipment included in the first shipment of the S-400 air defense missile systems, which was sent to China under the 2014 contract, has been damaged by a storm and returned to Russia, the press service of the Federal Service for Military-Technical Cooperation told TASS on Friday.

"In order to implement a contract on supplying the S-400 air defense missile systems to China, a vessel carrying support equipment departed from the Ust Luga port in the Leningrad region in late December. However, on its way to China, the vessel got caught in a strong storm, which damaged part of the equipment. A decision was made to return to the port of departure," the press service said.

Work is currently underway to assess the damage in order to make it possible to cover losses in accordance with insurance. After the work is completed, undamaged equipment will be sent to the customer, the Federal Service for Military-Technical Cooperation added.

The damage will not affect the timeframe for the implementation of the contract on supplying the S-400 air defense missile systems to China, the press service said.


Contract with China ::

In November 2014, it was announced that Russia and China had signed a contract on S-400 supplies, and in November 2015, Russian Presidential Aide on Military Cooperation Vladimir Kozhin confirmed the contract. In June 2016, head of Russia’s Rostec State Corporation Sergei Chemezov said that the Chinese Army would receive the S-400 systems no sooner than 2018. On December 7, 2017, Chemezov said that the delivery would begin in the near future.

China is the first foreign purchaser of these air defense systems, while the second one is Turkey. In July 2017, Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan stated that "certain documents" concerning the purchase of the S-400 systems had been signed. On September 12, 2017, Russia confirmed that a contract had been made. Turkey is the first NATO member state to purchase the S-400 Triumf systems.

S-400 system
The S-400 Triumf (NATO reporting name: SA-21 Growler) is the most advanced long-range antiaircraft missile system that went into service in 2007. It is designed to destroy aircraft, cruise and ballistic missiles, including medium-range ones, and can also be used against ground objectives. The S-400 complex can engage targets at a distance of 400 km and at an altitude of up to 30 km.

At present, only Russia’s Armed Forces are equipped with the S-400 systems. There are plans to supply them to four countries - China, Turkey, India and Saudi Arabia.

Part of S-400 shipment to China damaged by storm
 

Ashwin

Agent_47
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This is interesting, your post reminding me of the Starstreak Missile



Starstreak - Wikipedia

and from the link (editied for this post)

Advantages over infrared homing guided, radar homing guided, and radio command guidance

There is no Starstreak for india. Thales signed a MoU with BDL to assess the opportunity for the transfer of technology of the STARStreak missile capability to India with the support of the UK. That means there is no deal unless they get the MANPAD tender for billions. And DRDO have nothing to do with it.

The seeker could be for CLGM.

 

GuardianRED

Call Sign "RED"
Dec 2, 2017
510
405
There is no Starstreak for india. Thales signed a MoU with BDL to assess the opportunity for the transfer of technology of the STARStreak missile capability to India with the support of the UK. That means there is no deal unless they get the MANPAD tender for billions. And DRDO have nothing to do with it.

The seeker could be for CLGM.

I know that there is no Starstreak for India

Meant that the use of the laser seeker (since the Starstreak is the only other system 'I' know has one) and its advantages !!
 
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lcafanboy

Senior member
Dec 22, 2017
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Bangalore
DRDO’S precious ‘Project SFDR’: Connecting the Dots
1/10/2018
0 Comments


What we know about SFDR so far?

SFDR, short form for ‘Solid Fuel Ducted Ramjet’ is a propulsion technology different than that of conventional solid fuelled or liquid fuelled missiles. SFDR tech can also be termed as Air Augmented Rockets or Throttleable Ducted Rocket (TDR) or even Variable Flow Ducted Ramjet (VFDR). SFDR tech is currently being employed in Meteor (see Figure 1), a French Active Radar Guided Beyond Visual Range Air-to-Air Missile (BVRAAM) reportedly having a range of 300km, that significantly exceeds the range of any current conventional Air-to-Air missiles (AAM). Realizing what SFDR is capable of, a number of other countries have also started working on this propulsion technology, including India.


Figure 1 - Meteor BVRAAM

Why Solid Fuel Ducted Ramjet?

As the name goes, Ramjet is a form of air-breathing jet engine that eliminates the need of oxidizer. A typical rocket or missile, both liquid-fuelled and solid-fuelled have atleast 50 percent of its propellant, mixed with oxidizer, which is important for combustion to generate thrust. The end result being a significantly heavier missile. This is where an air-breathing engine, ‘Ramjet’ in this case, comes in to reduce the weight of the missile by instead taking oxygen from the atmosphere for combustion and significantly increasing the range efficiency of the missile. A Solid Fuel Ducted Ramjet, if employed in an Air to Air Missile, can give a great boost to a country’s airforce superiority.


Analysis of Project SFDR

The news of DRDO developing a Solid Fuel Ducted Ramjet Missile (shown in Figure 2 & 3) have been making rounds ever since second half of the current decade. But still not much is known about it, regarding its range, speed, dimensions, warhead weight etc., since DRDO is tight-lipped on it. Until recently, a schematics of DRDO SFDR has been found inside DRDO issued documents. The design scheme is very similar to that of Meteor BVRAAM with two air ducts, although DRDO’s 250kg SFDR is around 75kg heavier than 185kg Meteor. The project has already excited Indian military news followers and missile experts have termed it as “Desi Meteor”. However, some reports strongly suggests it’s a joint Indo-Russian Project, although no evidence of Russia’s direct involvement in SFDR project has ever been found.

Figure 2 - Schematic of DRDO SFDR

Figure 3 - 2D view of DRDO SFDR System
Can the range and speed of SFDR missile be figured out?

The answer to this question is fortunately yes, although not accurate, since the missiles’ actual range capabilities is only known to personnels involved in SFDR development. For finding the approx. range, we have to consider the cutting-edge Lithium Thermal Battery of SFDR (see Figure 5). DRDO’s SFDR Missile under development incorporates a state-of-the-art Lithium Thermal Battery weighing just 1.4kg which powers up the entire sub-systems of SFDR during its entire flight. The shelf life of Lithium Thermal Battery is highest amongst any kind of battery made in the world so far, with atleast 25 years of shelf life, which will help in lesser maintenance of this missile. The most notable thing in this Lithium Thermal Battery is its discharge duration requirement of minimum 230 seconds. The battery only gets activated when the missile is launched and its discharge time straightly points towards flight time of approx. 230 seconds. However, the velocity of SFDR still cannot be known unless DRDO officially reveals it, but with approx. 230 seconds flight time, its range can be figured with the help of the following table (see Figure 4) using different speed possibility. SFDR will guarantee a reach of minimum 250km range and up to 350km range, depending upon altitude and speed. Such range will also guarantee a 100km No-Escape Zone for enemy aircrafts.

Figure 4 - SFDR Missile range estimation through flight time

Figure 5 - Lithium Thermal Battery for SFDR BVRAAM
Can a SFDR Missile Variant be used as Anti-AWACS missile?

The famed Russian ULR-BVRAAM (Ultra Long Range - Beyond Visual Range Air-to-Air Missile) a.k.a Anti-AWACS missile, designated as K-100/ Article 172/ KS-172 Novator (see Figure 6), is the heaviest Air-to-Air missile in the world, standing at 748kg and boasting a range of 400km range with a speed of Mach 3.3. The missile has a conflicting report of whether or not it’s in the inventory of Indian Air Force (IAF). Nevertheless, its fully possible to convert SFDR into a dedicated Anti-AWACS missile with some modifications. An approx. 500kg weight reduction can be achieved from 748 kg weight of KS-172 to 250 kg weight of SFDR, although anti-AWACS variant of SFDR could possibly be slightly heavier. SFDR based missile would give India the capability to target High Value Targets (HVTs) of enemy countries during full-fledged war from a safe distance of 300+ km, which includes AWACS, AEW&C, ASW Aircraft, Transport Aircraft, Refueling Aircraft etc.

Figure 6 - Novator K-100

Is the ground launched SFDR missile variant none other than India’s mysterious DRDO XR-SAM?


For times, SFDR was thought to be only an Air-to-Air Missile, until a schematics of ground launched variant of SFDR (see Figure 7) from a DRDO issued document was found recently. It shows a 250 kg SFDR missile mounted on a large 450 kg booster. Meanwhile, in an official missile poster put on display by DRDO mentions about XR-SAM, although no further information or pics on XR-SAM was provided on the poster. Saurav Jha, a prominent Indian Defence Journalist confirmed that DRDO’s XR-SAM have same range capability to that of S400 system’s 48N6 SAM boasting a range of 250km. With the SFDR Range Estimation table shown in Figure 4, the Ground Launched SFDR Missile (GL-SFDR) can easily attain a range of 250 km, which matches the range capability of ongoing DRDO Project XR-SAM. Although this theoretical assumption makes sense that GL-SFDR is XR-SAM, but there's still no substantial evidence regarding it, unless and until DRDO reveals more data on highly secretive XR-SAM project.

Figure 7 - Ground Launched SFDR
Conclusion

Maturing of DRDO SFDR missile and its variants is still some years away with Captive Flight Trials (CFTs) hopefully at the end of 2018. Final SFDR Products could differ from the specs provided. The SFDR is indeed a high priority project for DRDO and future requirement for Indian Armed Forces w.r.t evolving threats of India’s unpredictable & unstable neighbors having no respect for India’s sovereignty. The future of missile warfare indeed belongs to air-breathing engines like ramjet, scramjet, shcramjet and pulse detonation engine.

Author - Mohammad Noor Alam

NOTE - All the information and pics in the article are taken from publicly available sources. The Article shall not be used for commercial purposes or be misused in any other ways. The Article shall not be reproduced without giving credits to No Man’s Land site (nmlonline.weebly.com).
DRDO’S precious ‘Project SFDR’: Connecting the Dots
 

Ashwin

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Staff member
Administrator
Nov 30, 2017
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DRDO’S precious ‘Project SFDR’: Connecting the Dots
1/10/2018
0 Comments


What we know about SFDR so far?

SFDR, short form for ‘Solid Fuel Ducted Ramjet’ is a propulsion technology different than that of conventional solid fuelled or liquid fuelled missiles. SFDR tech can also be termed as Air Augmented Rockets or Throttleable Ducted Rocket (TDR) or even Variable Flow Ducted Ramjet (VFDR). SFDR tech is currently being employed in Meteor (see Figure 1), a French Active Radar Guided Beyond Visual Range Air-to-Air Missile (BVRAAM) reportedly having a range of 300km, that significantly exceeds the range of any current conventional Air-to-Air missiles (AAM). Realizing what SFDR is capable of, a number of other countries have also started working on this propulsion technology, including India.


Figure 1 - Meteor BVRAAM

Why Solid Fuel Ducted Ramjet?

As the name goes, Ramjet is a form of air-breathing jet engine that eliminates the need of oxidizer. A typical rocket or missile, both liquid-fuelled and solid-fuelled have atleast 50 percent of its propellant, mixed with oxidizer, which is important for combustion to generate thrust. The end result being a significantly heavier missile. This is where an air-breathing engine, ‘Ramjet’ in this case, comes in to reduce the weight of the missile by instead taking oxygen from the atmosphere for combustion and significantly increasing the range efficiency of the missile. A Solid Fuel Ducted Ramjet, if employed in an Air to Air Missile, can give a great boost to a country’s airforce superiority.


Analysis of Project SFDR

The news of DRDO developing a Solid Fuel Ducted Ramjet Missile (shown in Figure 2 & 3) have been making rounds ever since second half of the current decade. But still not much is known about it, regarding its range, speed, dimensions, warhead weight etc., since DRDO is tight-lipped on it. Until recently, a schematics of DRDO SFDR has been found inside DRDO issued documents. The design scheme is very similar to that of Meteor BVRAAM with two air ducts, although DRDO’s 250kg SFDR is around 75kg heavier than 185kg Meteor. The project has already excited Indian military news followers and missile experts have termed it as “Desi Meteor”. However, some reports strongly suggests it’s a joint Indo-Russian Project, although no evidence of Russia’s direct involvement in SFDR project has ever been found.

Figure 2 - Schematic of DRDO SFDR

Figure 3 - 2D view of DRDO SFDR System
Can the range and speed of SFDR missile be figured out?

The answer to this question is fortunately yes, although not accurate, since the missiles’ actual range capabilities is only known to personnels involved in SFDR development. For finding the approx. range, we have to consider the cutting-edge Lithium Thermal Battery of SFDR (see Figure 5). DRDO’s SFDR Missile under development incorporates a state-of-the-art Lithium Thermal Battery weighing just 1.4kg which powers up the entire sub-systems of SFDR during its entire flight. The shelf life of Lithium Thermal Battery is highest amongst any kind of battery made in the world so far, with atleast 25 years of shelf life, which will help in lesser maintenance of this missile. The most notable thing in this Lithium Thermal Battery is its discharge duration requirement of minimum 230 seconds. The battery only gets activated when the missile is launched and its discharge time straightly points towards flight time of approx. 230 seconds. However, the velocity of SFDR still cannot be known unless DRDO officially reveals it, but with approx. 230 seconds flight time, its range can be figured with the help of the following table (see Figure 4) using different speed possibility. SFDR will guarantee a reach of minimum 250km range and up to 350km range, depending upon altitude and speed. Such range will also guarantee a 100km No-Escape Zone for enemy aircrafts.

Figure 4 - SFDR Missile range estimation through flight time

Figure 5 - Lithium Thermal Battery for SFDR BVRAAM
Can a SFDR Missile Variant be used as Anti-AWACS missile?

The famed Russian ULR-BVRAAM (Ultra Long Range - Beyond Visual Range Air-to-Air Missile) a.k.a Anti-AWACS missile, designated as K-100/ Article 172/ KS-172 Novator (see Figure 6), is the heaviest Air-to-Air missile in the world, standing at 748kg and boasting a range of 400km range with a speed of Mach 3.3. The missile has a conflicting report of whether or not it’s in the inventory of Indian Air Force (IAF). Nevertheless, its fully possible to convert SFDR into a dedicated Anti-AWACS missile with some modifications. An approx. 500kg weight reduction can be achieved from 748 kg weight of KS-172 to 250 kg weight of SFDR, although anti-AWACS variant of SFDR could possibly be slightly heavier. SFDR based missile would give India the capability to target High Value Targets (HVTs) of enemy countries during full-fledged war from a safe distance of 300+ km, which includes AWACS, AEW&C, ASW Aircraft, Transport Aircraft, Refueling Aircraft etc.

Figure 6 - Novator K-100

Is the ground launched SFDR missile variant none other than India’s mysterious DRDO XR-SAM?


For times, SFDR was thought to be only an Air-to-Air Missile, until a schematics of ground launched variant of SFDR (see Figure 7) from a DRDO issued document was found recently. It shows a 250 kg SFDR missile mounted on a large 450 kg booster. Meanwhile, in an official missile poster put on display by DRDO mentions about XR-SAM, although no further information or pics on XR-SAM was provided on the poster. Saurav Jha, a prominent Indian Defence Journalist confirmed that DRDO’s XR-SAM have same range capability to that of S400 system’s 48N6 SAM boasting a range of 250km. With the SFDR Range Estimation table shown in Figure 4, the Ground Launched SFDR Missile (GL-SFDR) can easily attain a range of 250 km, which matches the range capability of ongoing DRDO Project XR-SAM. Although this theoretical assumption makes sense that GL-SFDR is XR-SAM, but there's still no substantial evidence regarding it, unless and until DRDO reveals more data on highly secretive XR-SAM project.

Figure 7 - Ground Launched SFDR
Conclusion

Maturing of DRDO SFDR missile and its variants is still some years away with Captive Flight Trials (CFTs) hopefully at the end of 2018. Final SFDR Products could differ from the specs provided. The SFDR is indeed a high priority project for DRDO and future requirement for Indian Armed Forces w.r.t evolving threats of India’s unpredictable & unstable neighbors having no respect for India’s sovereignty. The future of missile warfare indeed belongs to air-breathing engines like ramjet, scramjet, shcramjet and pulse detonation engine.

Author - Mohammad Noor Alam

NOTE - All the information and pics in the article are taken from publicly available sources. The Article shall not be used for commercial purposes or be misused in any other ways. The Article shall not be reproduced without giving credits to No Man’s Land site (nmlonline.weebly.com).
DRDO’S precious ‘Project SFDR’: Connecting the Dots
Very interesting take by Noor.
 
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Ashwin

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Is his estimation on the Thermal battery vs range - sound?
I'm not well versed to have a full take on it. But all his data is credible.

We know SFDR is a Russian JV. But I always suspected its a technology demonstrator for the population part.

Also, I'm inclined to believe XRSAM is a variant of AAD.
 
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