India - United States Relations

[pachawry]

• It wasn't US that assisted Pakistan in acquiring nuclear weapons and the means of delivering them. It was China.
• In the future when Pakistan acquires a limited survivable nuclear deterrent (submarine-based nukes), it won't be because of US. It'll be because of China.
• It's not the US that claims sovereign Indian territory (Arunachal Pradesh) as part of itself. Its China.
• It wasn't the US that fought a big war and several smaller conflicts with India. It was China.
• It isn't US that is occupying Aksai Chin, is in illegal possession of Shaksgam Valley, and was involved in a standoff with Indian troops in Doklam. It was China.
• It isn't US that is building an Economic Corridor through territory that is legally claimed by India (by means of the 1947 Instrument of Accession), visibly undermining our territorial claims. It's China.

And despite all this if you think of China as "a reasonable country", then you are simply irreconcilably stupid and have a terribly skewed worldview.

During the Cold War years the world was heavily polarized. India was more or less in the Soviet bloc and Pakistan wasn't. So what would the successive US government leadership be supposed to do? Act in their own self-interest. Which is what they did by supporting Pakistan over India.

And that is the same thing we did when we opposed China over the Tibet issue. The PLA, through its forceful occupation, subjugation and annexation of Tibetan land, was poised to position itself firmly on India's borders. We acted in our own self-interest.

Now, if you think acting in one's self-interest is wrong, that would either mean you are 12 years old, or have the mind of a 12-year-old.

I suppose now you will claim India should relinquish any and all claims on Pakistan-occupied Kashmir so as to accommodate and please the Chinese?

I have to ask, honestly....how much is the CPC paying you to come up with these ideas? Or is it indentured servitude?

China was not the one who allowed AQ Khan to get the blueprint. China only gave the enriched uranium and steel forgings but not technology. Technology was from NATO countries. USA purposefully allowed Pakistan to do it as they wanted their help in Afghan war

Pakistani babur missile is from USA tomahawk

China holding to Aksai CHin is not exactly a problem to India. If you can show me when in the last 100 years India had one single post in Aksai chin, I will take back this. Aksai chin is outside of himalayas. and almost impossible for troops to cross. If you don't respect geographical boundaries and rely on morons with pencils to make maps, this is what will happen. I expect rational arguments, not arguments that rely on someone's opinions or random books. Aksai Chin was never under Indian control in entire history. Not one single person lived or lives in Aksai CHin and it has no resources. It was only written on map as part of India without any reason.

China has told that it does not want to interfere in PoK dispute and is building CPEC because of geographical reasons. Just because there is a dispute with India does not mean geography can be changed. CHina needs oil and that is in middle east. What else do you expect them to do?

China is claiming Arunachal only as a reaction to India claiming Tibet independence via Dalai Lama. Tibet has no geographical separation from China and China can't allow Tibet to be separate state. There will be uncontrolled espionage, infiltration and other hosts of problems. One must respect geographical boundaries. China across himalayas was not a concern to India as himalayan divide to too big to be breached. It is India who provoked CHina by crossing across Himalaya and meddling in Tibet affair. It is lik China hosting Khalistan government in their land. India had no concerns or self interest but was just hell bent on keeping CHina weak, most likely under USA pressure. USA even kept CIA planes for surveillance in India to spy on CHina during 1960s. It is not a coincidence that Nehru was installed by British and was acting as a puppet.

Acting in self interest does not mean you break someone's head and steal his wallet. There is a limit to self interest. India was under USSR as USSR gave lot of ToT and equipments. It was USA that forced India to make friendship treaty with USSR by supporting Pakistan in 1971 war.

 

[Parthu]

China was not the one who allowed AQ Khan to get the blueprint. China only gave the enriched uranium and steel forgings but not technology. Technology was from NATO countries. USA purposefully allowed Pakistan to do it as they wanted their help in Afghan war

Believe that if you will. Not to mention any nuclear device that Pakistan made would be basically ineffective if not for the Chinese-supplied ballistic missile technology which is what allowed Pakistan to attain pretty much a MAD parity with India.

If you are looking for the lesser evil between US and China, that is invariably the US.

Pakistani babur missile is from USA tomahawk

Actually no. The Tomahawks that landed in Pakistan had dived nose-first into the ground, no real technology was left intact that could be salvaged and reverse-engineered. At least nothing on the side of electronics (which is where the magic is).

Babur is actually based off the same technology tree which spawned the Chinese CJ-10/DH-10 cruise missile family. This tree has it's original roots in Soviet Russia - from the Kh-55/Korshun missile family.

To this day Babur continues to use a Chinese engine.

China holding to Aksai CHin is not exactly a problem to India. If you can show me when in the last 100 years India had one single post in Aksai chin, I will take back this. Aksai chin is outside of himalayas. and almost impossible for troops to cross. If you don't respect geographical boundaries and rely on morons with pencils to make maps, this is what will happen. I expect rational arguments, not arguments that rely on someone's opinions or random books. Aksai Chin was never under Indian control in entire history. Not one single person lived or lives in Aksai CHin and it has no resources. It was only written on map as part of India without any reason.

Geographically, I guess we should also relinquish all 7 North-Eastern states? Obviously the only connection with N-E India being the Siliguri Corridor/Chicken's Neck area it does not really make a strong case to be geographically part of India?

Sovereignty is sovereignty. If you want others to respect your sovereignty, first learn to respect it yourself.

China has told that it does not want to interfere in PoK dispute and is building CPEC because of geographical reasons. Just because there is a dispute with India does not mean geography can be changed. CHina needs oil and that is in middle east. What else do you expect them to do?

So you have to sit quietly while they build roads through India without asking India?

Do you hear yourself when you speak?

One must respect geographical boundaries.

Unfortunately you don't seem to respect the actual boundaries of India.

China across himalayas was not a concern to India as himalayan divide to too big to be breached. It is India who provoked CHina by crossing across Himalaya and meddling in Tibet affair.

Mountain ranges were impenetrable barriers for medieval armies. Not for a modern military with components of aerial warfare, rocket artillery and missiles.

It is lik China hosting Khalistan government in their land. India had no concerns or self interest but was just hell bent on keeping CHina weak, most likely under USA pressure. USA even kept CIA planes for surveillance in India to spy on CHina during 1960s. It is not a coincidence that Nehru was installed by British and was acting as a puppet.

So you want to install a Chinese puppet as PM who would cede away whichever piece of India that China wants to have dominion over?

Acting in self interest does not mean you break someone's head and steal his wallet.

As long as the other party is your perceived enemy, that is exactly what it means.

There is a limit to self interest. India was under USSR as USSR gave lot of ToT and equipments. It was USA that forced India to make friendship treaty with USSR by supporting Pakistan in 1971 war.

The Cold War is over. Or did you not notice?

In international politics there are no permanent friends and permanent enemies. If you wish to, putting it in your words, "destroy" and "terrorise" the USA because the Americans did X thing ages past, you have no inkling of how to conduct international affairs.

Here's the fact of the matter as it is today:

China supports Pakistan. China supports them more than US or any other country has ever done in past.

China is willfully undermining our very sovereignty and national borders.

US is opposed to China. Therefore there is now an opportunity for us to take advantage of the technologies & assets we get from US in order to strengthen our own position. Which is what we are doing.

 

[pachawry]

Geographically, I guess we should also relinquish all 7 North-Eastern states? Obviously the only connection with N-E India being the Siliguri Corridor/Chicken's Neck area it does not really make a strong case to be geographically part of India?

Sovereignty is sovereignty. If you want others to respect your sovereignty, first learn to respect it yourself.

North east is India due to geography. Actually, Bangladesh was also India geographically and it was foolishness to not have used military to force it to be India.

So you have to sit quietly while they build roads through India without asking India?

Do you hear yourself when you speak?

Whoever has military control is controlling the place. No matter how much you claim PoK as Indian territory, as of now, it is under Pakistan. World does not work because of your claims. If India wants it, it should take it back. Simply blabbering that it is Indian is absurd. Once it is Indian, then India can make its decision.

Mountain ranges were impenetrable barriers for medieval armies. Not for a modern military with components of aerial warfare, rocket artillery and missiles.

Mountain ranges are penetrable but the problem with Aksai is that it is extraordinarily cold and hostile climate in addition to mountin barrier. The two combinations make it even more difficult than Siachen

So you want to install a Chinese puppet as PM who would cede away whichever piece of India that China wants to have dominion over?

You are supporting British puppet PM Nehru? When did Tibet be part of India? China did not touch Indian part till India provoked it. Mao attacked India to teach India a lesson for meddling in its affairs.

As long as the other party is your perceived enemy, that is exactly what it means.

China was always a friend historically. China still remembers contribution of Indian doctors in helping it in WW2. Nehru made it an enemy by provoking.

The Cold War is over. Or did you not notice?

In international politics there are no permanent friends and permanent enemies. If you wish to, putting it in your words, "destroy" and "terrorise" the USA because the Americans did X thing ages past, you have no inkling of how to conduct international affairs.

Here's the fact of the matter as it is today:

China supports Pakistan. China supports them more than US or any other country has ever done in past.

China is willfully undermining our very sovereignty and national borders.

US is opposed to China. Therefore there is now an opportunity for us to take advantage of the technologies & assets we get from US in order to strengthen our own position. Which is what we are doing.

Cold war is over? In that case, why can't cold war with China be over too? China and India re also coming to good terms recently. China is not willfully troubling india for no reason. China is putting a direct condition - give up Dalai Lama and we will not interfere in Indian affairs either in border or in IOR. The deal is pretty straight forward and rational.

UA supported Pakistan till recently. USA gave billions of dollars aid to Pakistan jut about 5 years back..

Yes, it is an opportunity for us to get technology from USA but even this is transactional in nature and not because of friendship. In the long term, the USA mindset of imperialism can't be accepted. Favourable deals can be made but one must not get overwhelmed by propaganda of friendship with USA

 

[RISING SUN]

India-US Military Communications Pact: US team in Delhi next week, India demands five assurances
As both India and the US aim to make a firm announcement about the signing of Communications Compatibility and Security Agreement (COMCASA) during the ‘2+2’ meeting on September 6 in New Delhi, there are five major issues of contention being negotiated between the two sides.

Official sources told The Indian Express that a team of US officials from its Hawaii-based Indo-Pacific Command will be in Delhi on August 6 and 7 to conduct final negotiations on the text of the pact. The Indian side during these negotiations will comprise officials of External Affairs Ministry, Defence Ministry and armed forces.

The negotiations have proceeded at a fast pace once the Indian side expressed its willingness earlier this year to sign the pact which is meant to provide a legal framework for transfer of communication security equipment from the US to India that would facilitate “interoperability” between their armed forces.

Sources said while New Delhi is keen to have the agreement signed during the ‘2+2’ meeting, the US side seems content if the text is frozen and a concrete announcement about COMCASA included in the joint statement issued at the end of the meeting.

As per sources, the biggest roadblock in the negotiations is India’s demand for a clause which explicitly states that Indian sovereign law takes precedence over COMCASA. Indian officials argue that such a clause was part of the India-US nuclear deal negotiated by the UPA government and there is no reason why Americans can’t make the same concession now.

US officials contend that if a new government in India passes a ‘sovereign’ law which overrides COMCASA at a later stage, it defeats the purpose of signing the agreement. They told Indian interlocutors that such a clause is not required as Indian government can always cancel COMCASA after giving a notice period, besides having the option of amending it at any stage. Besides sovereignty, three major points of negotiations are about assurances India wants included in the text of the agreement.

The first is an assurance that the American side won’t use the access it gets to the military communications system for spying on India. The second is about the misuse of control equipment, as it is part of proprietary American network, which can be used by US military against Indian forces. The third assurance being sought by New Delhi is that the US government should not switch the whole equipment off or shut the Indian military network down as part of a policy decision.

India is insistent on these assurances being inserted in the text, arguing that COMCASA is an India-specific pact, based on Communication and Information on Security Memorandum of Agreement, a generic pact which the US signs with other countries. But the Americans contend that the person signing this pact, a senior US military officer, doesn’t have the authority to give those assurances which have to come from a political authority.

The via-media, which is likely to be accepted by both sides, is a separate letter between the two governments which provides these assurances but not as part of the COMCASA text.

This, Americans say, will also not make things difficult for them when they negotiate a similar agreement with other countries, as the US will have to make the text of the agreement public and it could be cited by other countries.
Another contentious issue is about backward compatibility of the equipment under COMCASA, which involves the cycle of upgradation that India wants to have a choice over, besides being guaranteed without any time limit.

The US has argued that having the choice of upgradation negates the purpose of COMCASA as many upgrades are required to overcome vulnerabilities and compromises in the system. The Indians are worried about the cost of these upgrades. The likely solution could include either a specified time limit, after an initial guarantee period, ora cost-sharing model.
India-US Military Communications Pact: US team in Delhi next week, India demands five assurances

 

[Parthu]

North east is India due to geography. Actually, Bangladesh was also India geographically and it was foolishness to not have used military to force it to be India.

If my aunt had testicles, she would be my uncle.

Whoever has military control is controlling the place. No matter how much you claim PoK as Indian territory, as of now, it is under Pakistan. World does not work because of your claims. If India wants it, it should take it back. Simply blabbering that it is Indian is absurd. Once it is Indian, then India can make its decision.

And how does sitting quietly while China builds infrastructure in Indian territory without asking India helping us take back PoK?

If we do not voice our concern (which is a very valid concern, by the way), then it means we are legitimizing/condoning their actions. We cannot afford it to be seen like that.

When we do initiate military action in the future with the intent of releasing Gilgit-Baltistan from Pakistani occupation, the concerns we raise today are what will provide the legitimacy and moral standing needed to justify such military action (which will, inevitably, lead to civilian loss of life which in turn will raise concerns at world level regarding the object & intent behind such military operations as conducted by India).

Mountain ranges are penetrable but the problem with Aksai is that it is extraordinarily cold and hostile climate in addition to mountin barrier. The two combinations make it even more difficult than Siachen

I'm talking about the Line of Actual Control as well as IB between India & China that exists as of today. You were saying the mountain ranges provide natural barrier for Chinese expansionism against India. I'm pointing out that if China wants, the mountains are not an obstacle to cause debilitating damage to Indian infrastructure and military assets in the region.

You are supporting British puppet PM Nehru?

No. Anyway Nehru is dead. He is not of consequence anymore.

If China actually wanted, it could have chosen any moment post-Nehru to build bridges in relationship with India. Instead China decided to cozy up with US - yes, US.

Until Tiananmen Square, China and US were buddies. China was opposed to both India and USSR. Both China & Pakistan were aligned with USA.

After all the covert/direct action that US conducted against China during and after 1950 (Korean War on Eastern front and Tibet on Western front), China was clever enough to get close to US as soon as the opportunity presented itself after Sino-Soviet conflict. Remember what I said before - no permanent friends and enemies.

China is smart enough to follow this stratagem. Unfortunately, it appears you are not.

What US did against China is far greater than what US ever done against India - yet China was ready to cooperate with US when the time came and their interests started to converge.

So why shouldn't we?

When did Tibet be part of India?

I said it was?

China did not touch Indian part till India provoked it. Mao attacked India to teach India a lesson for meddling in its affairs.

Ah, the glee in your face as you typed that sentence.

China was always a friend historically. China still remembers contribution of Indian doctors in helping it in WW2. Nehru made it an enemy by provoking.

What is this friend business? Are you of the "deeper than oceans, sweeter than honey" ilk?

Cold war is over? In that case, why can't cold war with China be over too?

BECAUSE. THEY. ARE. STEPPING. ON. OUR. TOES.

China and India re also coming to good terms recently.

Is that why recently China sent 50 soldiers on an incursion 2km deep into Indian territory in Sikkim?

Army blocks Sikkim 'incursion' by China

I suppose you will now say Sikkim is also not geographically part of India therefore we should cede it to China?

China is not willfully troubling india for no reason. China is putting a direct condition - give up Dalai Lama and we will not interfere in Indian affairs either in border or in IOR. The deal is pretty straight forward and rational.

This was communicated to you via Communist Party official channels?

UA supported Pakistan till recently. USA gave billions of dollars aid to Pakistan jut about 5 years back..

China giving much more even as of today. And will continue to do so in future.

Yes, it is an opportunity for us to get technology from USA but even this is transactional in nature and not because of friendship. In the long term, the USA mindset of imperialism can't be accepted. Favourable deals can be made but one must not get overwhelmed by propaganda of friendship with USA

Friendship? What is this, elementary school? You think what we had with Soviets was friendship and not transnational? Soviet Union was buying influence in the region. After Pakistan going into US camp and interests diverged with China, India was left as the only big country USSR could turn to in order to retain influence in South Asia.

Don't forget what Nikita Khrushchev said after 1962 war when he invited Chinese ambassador to Kremlin "India is a friend, but China is a brother". Why? Because Khrushchev needed Chinese support during Cuban Missile Crisis.

Ofcourse this "brotherly relation" between USSR and China only lasted until Chinese tried to claim Soviet territory. As I said, no permanent friends and enemies. And this conflict was over a region divided by the Ussuri river - as natural as a geographical demarcation can get between countries. And you say China is not expansionist?

What are the Chinese doing in the South China Sea? What they did against USSR? Against Vietnam? Against Tibet? All that is not expansionism?

I don't know what drugs you are on that are making China seem like an angel to your eyes. Even after the fact that every year there are minimum 2 Chinese incursions into sovereign Indian territory.

I seriously am lead to question just who's side you are on?

 

[pachawry]

And how does sitting quietly while China builds infrastructure in Indian territory without asking India helping us take back PoK?

If we do not voice our concern (which is a very valid concern, by the way), then it means we are legitimizing/condoning their actions. We cannot afford it to be seen like that.

When we do initiate military action in the future with the intent of releasing Gilgit-Baltistan from Pakistani occupation, the concerns we raise today are what will provide the legitimacy and moral standing needed to justify such military action (which will, inevitably, lead to civilian loss of life which in turn will raise concerns at world level regarding the object & intent behind such military operations as conducted by India).

China has accepted that their position is only for time being. Just read their statement. They have said that the resolution of Kashmir is between Pakistan and India and they will accept the outcome.

I'm talking about the Line of Actual Control as well as IB between India & China that exists as of today. You were saying the mountain ranges provide natural barrier for Chinese expansionism against India. I'm pointing out that if China wants, the mountains are not an obstacle to cause debilitating damage to Indian infrastructure and military assets in the region.

China can damage India and vice versa. But simply enraging India into attacking CHina is not in Chinese interests. For that matter, India can also attack Bhutan or Myanmar. Does this mean India will attack simply?

If China actually wanted, it could have chosen any moment post-Nehru to build bridges in relationship with India. Instead China decided to cozy up with US - yes, US.

Until Tiananmen Square, China and US were buddies. China was opposed to both India and USSR. Both China & Pakistan were aligned with USA.

After all the covert/direct action that US conducted against China during and after 1950 (Korean War on Eastern front and Tibet on Western front), China was clever enough to get close to US as soon as the opportunity presented itself after Sino-Soviet conflict. Remember what I said before - no permanent friends and enemies.

China is smart enough to follow this stratagem. Unfortunately, it appears you are not.

What US did against China is far greater than what US ever done against India - yet China was ready to cooperate with US when the time came and their interests started to converge.

So why shouldn't we?

China had fallen out with USSR and hence went on an independent path. USA only approached China in 1980 when USR was weakening. Since India was with USSR, CHina saw no reason to negotiate. But when Vajpayee govt came, India and CHina had declared peace and India approved Chinese position of Tibet. The relation got damaged by UPA.

BECAUSE. THEY. ARE. STEPPING. ON. OUR. TOES.

Is that why recently China sent 50 soldiers on an incursion 2km deep into Indian territory in Sikkim?

Army blocks Sikkim 'incursion' by China

I suppose you will now say Sikkim is also not geographically part of India therefore we should cede it to China?

Yes, as I said, until a lasting solution on Tibet is achieved there will be reminders from both sides. The solution is not to simply overdo things but to resolve Tibet.

This was communicated to you via Communist Party official channels?

Xi told this to Modi in recent meeting. He said that local commander of PLA acted on his own and once the issue escalated, it became prestige issue.

China giving much more even as of today. And will continue to do so in future.

Till about 5 years back, USA was giving much more. It changed now to China. Some amount of arms have to be give to Pakistan to keep them pacified. Otherwise they will get out of control and panic. This is unavoidable. But as long as serious firepower is not given, it is enough.

Friendship? What is this elementary school? You think what we had with Soviets was friendship and not transnational? Soviet Union was buying influence in the region. After Pakistan going into US camp and interests diverged with China, India was left as the only big country USSR could turn to in order to retain influence in South Asia.

Don't forget what Nikita Khrushchev said after 1962 war when he invited Chinese ambassador to Kremlin "India is a friend, but China is a brother". Why? Because Khrushchev needed Chinese support during Cuban Missile Crisis.

Ofcourse this "brotherly relation" between USSR and China only lasted until Chinese tried to claim Soviet territory. As I said, no permanent friends and enemies. And this conflict was over a region divided by the Ussuri river - as natural as a geographical demarcation can get between countries. And you say China is not expansionist?

What are the Chinese doing in the South China Sea? What they did against USSR? Against Vietnam? Against Tibet? All that is not expansionism?

I don't know what drugs you are on that are making China seem like an angel to your eyes. Even after the fact that every year there are minimum 2 Chinese incursions into sovereign Indian territory.

I seriously am lead to question just who's side you are on?

China is non-ally but friendly country historically. It is not alliance but simply friendship. The friend is used here as there is no cultural antagonism but just political rivalry. Countries like USA, Pakistan, KSA etc have cultural enmity which is unresolvable.

China trying in South CHina sea is not Indian concern. It is a concern to USA. USA has been setting up bases everywhere by military threat, political interference etc and you only seem to see China? I would want CHina to trouble USA as far as possible and the shrill voice made by USA ignored as propaganda. USA is the one which must leave from countries like Korea, Japan etc.

I am surprised that you are not worried about USA base in Diego garcia but have more concern about South China sea. What is the reason you are not concerned about Diego garcia more than South China Sea?

 

[Parthu]

China is non-ally but friendly country historically. It is not alliance but simply friendship. The friend is used here as there is no cultural antagonism but just political rivalry. Countries like USA, Pakistan, KSA etc have cultural enmity which is unresolvable.

Having cultural enmity or not is irrelevant. Culturally, India has much more in common with Pakistan than any other country. Yet we are bitter enemies.

Same is the case with the Koreas. Or North and South Vietnam.

It the convergence/divergence of political and national interests which leads to conflict and/or alliances. China realizes this. But you don't.

Politically, India, as a democratic country with increasingly liberal values, has more in common with West than with any of our neighbours - China included. However that does not mean we will surrender our sovereignty to Western countries - we will simply seek to work toward goals of mutual interest and benefit.

Please do not be lost in the delusion of "Hindi-Chini Bhai Bhai". There is no such thing anymore - China is a real and present enemy of India, and is dangerously close with our other nuclear-armed neighbour.

China trying in South CHina sea is not Indian concern.

We're living in globalized world FYI. Anyway, if you think you can pursue relationship with a country without making slightest observations of how that country deals with its other neighbours, you would be foolish.

It is a concern to USA. USA has been setting up bases everywhere by military threat, political interference etc and you only seem to see China?

After Soviet collapse, US is sole superpower in the world. If India was superpower we would set up bases everywhere too. Even at present with economy of $2.5 trillion we have/are setting up bases in Tajikistan, Seychelles, Mauritius etc. So wouldn't a $19 trillion economy have bases everywhere?

I would want CHina to trouble USA as far as possible and the shrill voice made by USA ignored as propaganda.

You are free to have your fantasies.

USA is the one which must leave from countries like Korea, Japan etc.

US military is there because Japanese/Korean governments want them there. And these are governments that are democratically elected by the people of said countries. So it means that US presence in their countries is democratically accepted by the majority of the people of those countries.

So who are we to tell US to leave?

I am surprised that you are not worried about USA base in Diego garcia but have more concern about South China sea.

What is the reason you are not concerned about Diego garcia more than South China Sea?

Because its not American troops who conduct incursions into Indian territory.
Because its not America that claims pieces of Indian sovereign land.
Because its not America that supplies destabilizing technologies like ballistic missiles to Pakistan.

Do you want me to go on?

 

[pachawry]

Having cultural enmity or not is irrelevant. Culturally, India has much more in common with Pakistan than any other country. Yet we are bitter enemies.

Same is the case with the Koreas. Or North and South Vietnam.

It the convergence/divergence of political and national interests which leads to conflict and/or alliances. China realizes this. But you don't.

Politically, India, as a democratic country with increasingly liberal values, has more in common with West than with any of our neighbours - China included. However that does not mean we will surrender our sovereignty to Western countries - we will simply seek to work toward goals of mutual interest and benefit.

Please do not be lost in the delusion of "Hindi-Chini Bhai Bhai". There is no such thing anymore - China is a real and present enemy of India, and is dangerously close with our other nuclear-armed neighbour.

From when did Pakistan and India have similar culture? India and Pakista have exact opposite culture, especially in values. The silly practices like wearing jewellery etc are irrelevant. The real culture is in values and that is where difference comes. The values in turn are from purpose of life, derived from religion.

We're living in globalized world FYI. Anyway, if you think you can pursue relationship with a country without making slightest observations of how that country deals with its other neighbours, you would be foolish.

China does not have bad relation with North Korea or Myanmar. What does this say? Only countries where there are agents ruling like Taiwan propped by USA, Vietnam which had USA presence due to Vietnam war, philippines again under USA are the ones causing trouble to CHina. You must see who started it first.

US military is there because Japanese/Korean governments want them there. And these are governments that are democratically elected by the people of said countries. So it means that US presence in their countries is democratically accepted by the majority of the people of those countries.

So who are we to tell US to leave?

The question here is who came first? USA or govt of Japan, Taiwan and Korea? In all cases, it was USA who came first and installed govt through military means. USA invaded Japan and Korea while Taiwan was propped as USA was against communists

Because its not American troops who conduct incursions into Indian territory.
Because its not America that claims pieces of Indian sovereign land.
Because its not America that supplies destabilizing technologies like ballistic missiles to Pakistan.

Do you want me to go on?

I will give a list of USA political interference:

1. LTTE
2. Pakistan
3. Khalistan movement
4. Taliban
5. Mujahideen of Kashmir
6. political interference in Indian elections.
7. intervention in Iraq
8. intervention in Vietnam
9. intervention in Iran dueing Shah era
10. Intervention in Malaysia and setting of USA base
11. interference in Signapore politics
12. Military rule and USA dictated constitution in Japan, Korea, Taiwan
13. USA dictated constitution in Germany. USA never left Germany after USSR left
14. USA bases across middle east
15. USA bases in Diego Garcia
16. USA bases in Somalia
17. USA causing unrest in China at Tianmen square
18. USA interference in liberating Timor from Indonesia.

No mattr what USA is a much bigger threat in every area than CHina ever was or ever can be. Expalin to me why Diego Garcia is not a bigger issue than South China sea

 

[Parthu]

From when did Pakistan and India have similar culture? India and Pakista have exact opposite culture, especially in values. The silly practices like wearing jewellery etc are irrelevant. The real culture is in values and that is where difference comes. The values in turn are from purpose of life, derived from religion.

If you think the culture of India and Pakistan is not similar, then you must also think that your culture in X state of India is not similar to culture from Y state of India.

You seem to have forgotten that Pakistan was part of India until 1947. Punjab, Sindh...these are places that are still present in our national anthem.

And what values are you talking about? How are the Islamic values held by average conservative Pakistani who works for his daily bread any different from the values held by a conservative Indian Muslim that works for his daily bread?

Note that I specifically say conservative - because for anyone who has liberal values inevitably has been influenced/is one who is actually practicing Western-inspired values and conduct, doesn't matter which country he's from. Such as the concept of Democracy for example.

China does not have bad relation with North Korea or Myanmar. What does this say? Only countries where there are agents ruling like Taiwan propped by USA, Vietnam which had USA presence due to Vietnam war, philippines again under USA are the ones causing trouble to CHina. You must see who started it first.

China doesn't have bad relations with North Korea because NoKo provides them cannon fodder and a buffer zone against American/South Korean interests. This has been this way since Korean War.

And what about Vietnam? They held similar Communist values as China did - infact Vietnam kicked US *censored*.

So why China attacked Vietnam?

The question here is who came first? USA or govt of Japan, Taiwan and Korea? In all cases, it was USA who came first and installed govt through military means. USA invaded Japan and Korea while Taiwan was propped as USA was against communists

What's wrong in that? Ultimately the people of those countries are happy with US presence. Western-inspired values & capitalist economic system made these countries Asian Tigers. Highest personal incomes, life expectancy, healthcare, welfare, everything a modern human needs has been provided in countries like Japan or SK.

It does not appear to me that people in these so-called "US occupied" countries are suffering. Is it any wonder that they are happy to have the US there?

On the other hand look at the friend of China - North Korea. This is what you call a real oppressive regime.

And what are the common values that unite countries like Japan, SK and US? True democracy for starters. A value shared by India as well.

I will give a list of USA political interference:

1. LTTE
2. Pakistan
3. Khalistan movement
4. Taliban
5. Mujahideen of Kashmir
6. political interference in Indian elections.
7. intervention in Iraq
8. intervention in Vietnam
9. intervention in Iran dueing Shah era
10. Intervention in Malaysia and setting of USA base
11. interference in Signapore politics
12. Military rule and USA dictated constitution in Japan, Korea, Taiwan
13. USA dictated constitution in Germany. USA never left Germany after USSR left
14. USA bases across middle east
15. USA bases in Diego Garcia
16. USA bases in Somalia
17. USA causing unrest in China at Tianmen square
18. USA interference in liberating Timor from Indonesia.

You are clutching at straws.

China caused infinitely more damage to India than US ever did - directly or indirectly.

And I don't even know why you think China wants to be a friend of India. If they really did, they will cease all support to Pakistan and then India will reciprocate.

India is not supplying nuclear missiles to Vietnam or Taiwan. But China is supplying such to Pakistan. Why?

Who is escalating the tensions between us? China.

So who here needs to change first?

No mattr what USA is a much bigger threat in every area than CHina ever was or ever can be.

USA is a much bigger ENTITY in every area than China.

Expalin to me why Diego Garcia is not a bigger issue than South China sea

Because India is a direct victim of Chinese territorial expansionism and military aggression.

What US did does not even begin to come close.

 

[BlackOpsIndia]

India-Russia relations are meeting the stone cold fact that they have completely divergent strategic goals around China.

Maybe but India-US interests are also not aligned on China. US want us to act hostile to China and yet when we get into a standoff US lips were sealed by super glue. US attended BRI summit and even after knowing India is boycotting it they can't stand to antagonize China, how was BRI summit important to US interests? We always mention about SCS in joint statment when we have almost zero stake in that region but US can't ever mention Aksai Chin.

US never want India as partner they want to own us, without even realizing India is too big to be owned now. They want us to accept all their enemies be it North Korea, China, Russia, Taliban, ISIS, Iran and yet they can't own a single enemy of India, that time they want to pursue US interests.

US need to get clear mind about what they want from India otherwise ties will never procced smoothly.

India will always take a friendly China and indifferent US, instead of hostile China and indifferent US.

 

[randomradio]

The first is an assurance that the American side won’t use the access it gets to the military communications system for spying on India. The second is about the misuse of control equipment, as it is part of proprietary American network, which can be used by US military against Indian forces. The third assurance being sought by New Delhi is that the US government should not switch the whole equipment off or shut the Indian military network down as part of a policy decision.

The fak!

@vstol Jockey @Hellfire

If those are the kind of assurances we are looking for, why get into it in the first place?

 

[Kvasir]

1. USA dictated constitution in Germany. USA never left Germany after USSR left

1. The USSR never left. It just took a nap for a few years and changed its name to Russia. Same mentality. Same personality. Same policy. Same problems.

2. Do you know what these are? They're caves, caverns and storehouses full of US military equipment in Norway.

The Americans didn't leave Norway after the fall of the USSR either. In fact, we asked them to stay around and expand their presence. In 2017 more Americans showed up.

With more equipment.

And why? Because we've a bit of an issue with the neighbors, a neighbor the Americans have an issue with too. See, like the US and Japan and China, or the US, South Korea and North Korea, we and the American share a common problem. A problem that's being a problem not seen at levels this high since the Soviet Union was still around!

It's a problem we needed help with, a problem too large for us alone. So we called our friends to help. And they answered. As they did in Japan. As they did in South Korea. And Poland, Romania, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, and many more. Some times we ask for help with our problems, even if it means we tolerate our friends staying a tad longer then they otherwise would.

If we didn't want the Americans here they would have already left.

And just so we're clear, it's not just the Americans. Not in Japan. Not in South Korea. Not in Australia. Not here in Norway. Can you name all these ships ported in Bergen? How about what navy they belong to?

 

[_Anonymous_]

The fak!

@vstol Jockey @Hellfire

If those are the kind of assurances we are looking for, why get into it in the first place?

Saurav Jha (@SJha1618) Tweeted:
The argument that 'we are already exposed because of military imports' & 'therefore COMCASA can only do so much' is pure BS. COMCASA will take intrusiveness to a different level & compromise much more. It will also pave the way for more compromised imports.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1022357610886918144

Saurav Jha (@SJha1618) Tweeted:
Now that even the Army has spelt out the huge problems with COMCASA, here's Capt. Ramaprasad, a veteran of the Indian Navy, who was decorated for designing an indigenous combat management system on why it is a bad idea. #SaynotoCOMCASA
COMCASA – Should India Sign?

https://twitter.com/x/status/1022027704227508225

 

[randomradio]

Saurav Jha (@SJha1618) Tweeted:
The argument that 'we are already exposed because of military imports' & 'therefore COMCASA can only do so much' is pure BS. COMCASA will take intrusiveness to a different level & compromise much more. It will also pave the way for more compromised imports.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1022357610886918144

Saurav Jha (@SJha1618) Tweeted:
Now that even the Army has spelt out the huge problems with COMCASA, here's Capt. Ramaprasad, a veteran of the Indian Navy, who was decorated for designing an indigenous combat management system on why it is a bad idea. #SaynotoCOMCASA
COMCASA – Should India Sign?

https://twitter.com/x/status/1022027704227508225

We have to be extremely careful about COMCASA. The way I see it, I feel like COMCASA has been designed for the benefit of the navy, because both navies need a very high level of interoperability there. But I don't see a real need for interoperability with NATO for the IAF and IA.

But we must ensure we have a parallel network alongside American comm network in order to make sure our network is not compromised. So all Indian controlled equipment is connected within the Indian-only grid and the Americans operate with us through specific systems like the P-8I.

I hope the govt knows what it's doing. And I hope the military doesn't succumb to political pressure and are forced to do things against their interests.

 

[pachawry]

If you think the culture of India and Pakistan is not similar, then you must also think that your culture in X state of India is not similar to culture from Y state of India.

You seem to have forgotten that Pakistan was part of India until 1947. Punjab, Sindh...these are places that are still present in our national anthem.

And what values are you talking about? How are the Islamic values held by average conservative Pakistani who works for his daily bread any different from the values held by a conservative Indian Muslim that works for his daily bread?

Note that I specifically say conservative - because for anyone who has liberal values inevitably has been influenced/is one who is actually practicing Western-inspired values and conduct, doesn't matter which country he's from. Such as the concept of Democracy for example.

Do you have problems understanding anything more than superficiality? Pakistan was part of India only geographically, not by values. Ideally, a nation must be made on the basis of values, not just bunch of savages trying to live.

Indian muslim and pakistani muslims have same values but they are not values of hindus. As I said, the problem came because Hindus were too stupid, disorganised and ideologically bankrupt to take action. There is no reason to have Indian muslim when Pakistan was given. It was a crime of the past, rather than a source of justification. How can partition be based on one sided values - what is mine is mine but what is your is negotiable? Pakistan was essentially ceded away, not partitioned while res of India stayed as it was. Retarded behaviour of the past does not justify anything. Loyalty is always to civilisation, not to piece of land. India has more than one civilisation living in chaos due to foolishness of the past. Nevertheless, it is not sustainable in the long run.

You lost the plot the moment you looked at pakistan and India just as a piece of land and not as ideology

You are clutching at straws.

China caused infinitely more damage to India than US ever did - directly or indirectly.

And I don't even know why you think China wants to be a friend of India. If they really did, they will cease all support to Pakistan and then India will reciprocate.

India is not supplying nuclear missiles to Vietnam or Taiwan. But China is supplying such to Pakistan. Why?

Who is escalating the tensions between us? China.

So who here needs to change first?

How did China cause infinitely more damage? It is in fact the opposite. If India and the world is free from USA clutches, it is because of chinese manufacturing and cheap goods.

China will cease supporting Pakistan in a year or two if India seeks a dialogue with China.

Because India is a direct victim of Chinese territorial expansionism and military aggression.

What US did does not even begin to come close.

USA is the one who supported Pakistan and other enemies without India provoking USA. The dispute with China is due to India hosting Tibet government which India started without provocation. But, India can't now kick out Dalai Lama due to the bad appearance it will make and hence the problem persists. Once Dalai Lama is gone, the problem will die out. The problem with USA is longer term and is based on civilisational values

Civilisational clash is greater thereat than territorial clash.

What's wrong in that? Ultimately the people of those countries are happy with US presence. Western-inspired values & capitalist economic system made these countries Asian Tigers. Highest personal incomes, life expectancy, healthcare, welfare, everything a modern human needs has been provided in countries like Japan or SK.

It does not appear to me that people in these so-called "US occupied" countries are suffering. Is it any wonder that they are happy to have the US there?

On the other hand look at the friend of China - North Korea. This is what you call a real oppressive regime.

And what are the common values that unite countries like Japan, SK and US? True democracy for starters. A value shared by India as well.

Nonsense again. You don't seem to read about the firings in South Korea against people who sought democracy in late 20th century. South Korean presidents are all tom dick and harries without any name or fame but simply selected by deep state network. When they go out of line, there is a media hitjob to take them down. Just look how the last SK president was taken down on flimsy grounds. Japanese are not happy at USA either. None of these nations have a choice. USA is providing them the petrodollars which would be sanctioned if they ask USA to leave.

Living like prostitutes is suffering itself. The lives of Japanese, Koreans have become too superficial and depressing. The mere presence of luxuries is not happiness. There must be values too.

North Korea has independence and their people are not living like prostitutes. They may be poor but they live with dignity. North Korea was literally destroyed by USA in 1950 war. 99% of its industries, railways were wiped out. 85% of homes destroyed and 20% population killed by USA. China came to aid NK and NK is alive today because of China.

 

[pachawry]

We have to be extremely careful about COMCASA. The way I see it, I feel like COMCASA has been designed for the benefit of the navy, because both navies need a very high level of interoperability there. But I don't see a real need for interoperability with NATO for the IAF and IA.

But we must ensure we have a parallel network alongside American comm network in order to make sure our network is not compromised. So all Indian controlled equipment is connected within the Indian-only grid and the Americans operate with us through specific systems like the P-8I.

I hope the govt knows what it's doing. And I hope the military doesn't succumb to political pressure and are forced to do things against their interests.

COMCASA is because USA wants India to eventually host USA base citing common interests. I would say that India should consider the options and take decision in the best long term interests

 

[Sathya]

We have to be extremely careful about COMCASA. The way I see it, I feel like COMCASA has been designed for the benefit of the navy, because both navies need a very high level of interoperability there. But I don't see a real need for interoperability with NATO for the IAF and IA.

But we must ensure we have a parallel network alongside American comm network in order to make sure our network is not compromised. So all Indian controlled equipment is connected within the Indian-only grid and the Americans operate with us through specific systems like the P-8I.

I hope the govt knows what it's doing. And I hope the military doesn't succumb to political pressure and are forced to do things against their interests.

My speculation is it's similar to nuclear deal..
Both sides compromise something and make it costly to withdraw from deal.
Indian side conditions to make alternative arrangements if US went against indian interest ..

 

[randomradio]

COMCASA is because USA wants India to eventually host USA base citing common interests. I would say that India should consider the options and take decision in the best long term interests

No relation.

 

[randomradio]

My speculation is it's similar to nuclear deal..
Both sides compromise something and make it costly to withdraw from deal.
Indian side conditions to make alternative arrangements if US went against indian interest ..

The way I see it, COMCASA is required to operate US drones.

So we will sign COMCASA and get the stuff necessary to operate the drones and network the drones with our other assets. Which means, our patrol aircraft and ships will be forced to carry American equipment that can communicate with the drones. The same with the IAF's request for the 100 Avengers, they will need ground stations and other aircraft that can link up with the drones.

And we will have our own network separate from this American drone network.

Possible mountain out of a molehill.

 

[RISING SUN]

Sikh leader Manjit Singh attacked by pro-Khalistan supporters in California
Akali Dal leader and Delhi Sikh Gurdwara Management Committee (DSGMC) president Manjit Singh GK was attacked by a group of unknown men at the Yuba City Gurdwara in California on Saturday. Three people have so far been arrested in connection with the attack.

The attackers pushed Singh to the ground, causing his turban to fall off. His face was blackened and beaten by the men before he was taken to a place of safety.

The DSGMC chief recalled the incident and said that a group of over 20 people had attacked him.

"I was attacked by 20 to 25 people. I was here at the gurudwara for paying my respects. These people did not even uphold the dignity of a gurdwara. I told my aides to not say a word and maintain peace. We will not be cowed down by all this (such attacks). I was first attacked in New York and then in California. I am not scared of these people, and I am safe," he said in a video.

Meanwhile, Shiromani Gurdwara Parbandhak Committee (SGPC) president Gobind Singh Longowal condemned the attack and termed it as unfortunate. "It is very unfortunate that in America, Sikhs are being repeatedly targetted. This is the handiwork of such agencies, who want to instigate tensions among the Sikhs. It is the responsiblity of the US government to take strict actions against these people behind the attack. I condemn this incident," he told ANI.

Union Cabinet Minister of Food Processing Harsimrat Kaur Badal termed the incident as "cowardly" and tweeted, "Strongly Condemn the Cowardly attack on unarmed @ManjitGK at the Yuba City Gurughar in complete disregard of Maryada and Sikhi! To these agents of ISI, the only way to get referendum is by attacking n intimidating Sikhs. No Sikh will ever be cowed down by your dastardly acts."

Her husband and Shiromani Akali Dal (SAD) leader Sukhbir Singh Badal also wrote on the micro-blogging site, "I strongly condemn the cowardly attack on Manjit Singh GK. He was unarmed and paying obeisance at Gurughar where he was attacked by goons backed by ISI. @Akali_Dal_ has never cowed down to terror and will continue to stand strong on the principles of Sikhism!"

This is the second such attack on Singh in this week. On Monday, the DSGMC chief and his family were allegedly attacked by Khalistan sympathisers at a TV studio in New York, following which he appealed to External Affairs Minister Sushma Swaraj for help and demanded action.

There has been a spike in hate attacks against the Sikh community in the US. On August 16, a man identified as Terlok Singh was apparently stabbed to death on Thursday near the deli he owned at North Park Street and Burchard Avenue in New Jersey's East Orange.

On August 6, a 71-year-old Sikh man was attacked in California's Manteca by two youths, one of whom was later identified as Union City Police Chief Darryl McAllister's estranged son Tyrone Keith McAllister. Both Tyrone and his accomplice were arrested.

On July 31, 50-year-old Surjit Malhi was attacked in California when he was raising campaign signs in support of Republican candidates.
Sikh leader Manjit Singh attacked by pro-Khalistan supporters in California

GK Brutally Thrashed in Yuba City; Turban Knocked Off and Crushed Under Feet by Hooligans
The DSGMC president S. Manjit Singh GK was brutally thrashed today by around 30 hooligans inside the Yuba City’s Gurdwara premises. While swearing GK with an extremely vulgar language, the hooligans didn’t even refrain from committing sacrilege of his turban by knocking it off and crushing it under the feet.

Multiple videos of GK’s thrashing have gone viral over social media in which he could be easily seen covering his head with his hand to defend himself from getting hit on head by the attacking mob.

Interacting with media after surviving from the attack, GK said that he is alright and such attacks can’t cow down him from his stance. “My aides didn’t counter-attack the hooligans keeping in view dignity of Gurdwara Sahib” he added.

Meanwhile, it is learnt that three hooligans have been arrested by the Police in this concern.

It is pertinent to note here that this is the second attack on S. Manjit Singh GK within this week of his journey to United States of America. Earlier, he was targeted in New York by some intoxicated youths on August 20.

Sources have informed that GK has been targeted this time due to his inflammatory speech video in which he says that the pro-Khalistan activists were made “run” from Punjab by the former Punjab CM Beant “Singh”. Notably, Beant “Singh” was assassinated on August 31, 1995 for fully authorizing the Punjab police to carry out massacre of innocent Sikh youths without any reason and then rewarding the killer cops with large ransoms and promotions.

Full Video:




https://www.sikh24.com/2018/08/26/g...crushed-under-feet-by-hooligans/#.W4KfYLidcpY