India eyes 6th generation FCAS, looks at tying up with France for possible collaboration

[Bhartiya Naagrik Sainik]

What is a 5th gen ?
According to LM it is a stealthy jet that can supercruise, as agile as an early F16, with sensor fusion, affordable. The sole west jet with all these assests is F22 (except affordability). Even F-35 is short on supercruise and agility.
So ?

Oh come on man! How many times this question will be asked with F-22 & F-35?
We should stop dogfighting with our mind, catching our tail & going round n round.
5gen primary features are stealth & sensor fusion, rest are secondary/optional features.
A newer jet will have some better features like HMDS, EOTS, better DAS, etc But when it comes to combat, F-35 like exportable jet can't be given OVERALL edge over domestic ADF.
Or, US F-35 should be notably superior in some ways than exported F-35, like S/w, flight performance, certain components, weapons, etc.

 

[screambowl]

Airbus now describes MARS Autonomy as distributed intelligence capable of orchestrating crewed and uncrewed platforms, autonomously allocating tasks and dynamically reconfiguring missions. Airbus demonstrated UAVs cooperating with only human supervision rather than continuous remote control.

This is the real definition of 6th Gen stealth platform. And 7th Generation will involve quantum computation .

 

[Batman]

What is a 5th gen ?
According to LM it is a stealthy jet that can supercruise, as agile as an early F16, with sensor fusion, affordable. The sole west jet with all these assests is F22 (except affordability). Even F-35 is short on supercruise and agility.
So ?

exactly, the F35 is neither agile as even a good 4th gen and neither can't it supercruise and the F22 is critically outdated that even the US stopped making them. Compare them with the Su57 which has none of these critical drawbacks and even have features not seen in any 5th gen jets which is why it's the best 5th gen on the market, it should be 5.5 gen jet if you look at the jet's true potential.

 

[Hydra]

Compare them with the Su57 which has none of these critical drawbacks

It lacks stealth, good avionics, aesa radar its having a joke& even doesn't have an egine of ots choice . Its a good propaganda aircraft, nothing more nothing less. An airforce (IAF) often settles with mediocre aircraft in past also rejected it multiple times.

 

[Batman]

This is objectively wrong on so many level

It lacks stealth

It has planform and extensive edge alignment, flattest body for fighter, small vertical stabalisers, internal weapons bay, composites, RAM coating, flat engine nozzle etc

good avionics, aesa radar

It has distributed in levels and capability never before seen in any other fighter jet paired with IRST(which the outdated F22 lacks), missile warning sensors, DIRCM(never seen in any other jet), other electro optical sensors, not to mention N036 Belka is literally an AESA radar complex. It has a nose-mounted X-band AESA supplemented by two side-looking X-band AESA arrays and L-band arrays in the wing leading edges and even another in the rear.

its having a joke& even doesn't have an egine of ots choice . Its a good propaganda aircraft, nothing more nothing less. An airforce (IAF) often settles with mediocre aircraft in past also rejected it multiple times.

The only joke is the outdated F22 which is a failed unproven jet which the united states themselves don't want or the fat piece of tin which couldn't even clear the 5th gen requirements stated by the company who made them, not to mention it facing loses and humiliation even against 3rd world pirates or primitive armies. The Su57 is the most combat tested jet against a modern military. Also, why you bothered over the engines? It would still fly circles around your slow and fat amy and most 4th gen's with no issue? Su57 combines the best of all worlds required for a jet to survive in modern combat in contested airspace and to make it even better, it doesn't need an another jet to compensate for it's weaknesses like the F35 or F22 does.

 

[Hydra]

This is objectively wrong on so many level

It has planform and extensive edge alignment, flattest body for fighter, small vertical stabalisers, internal weapons bay, composites, RAM coating, flat engine nozzle etc

It has distributed in levels and capability never before seen in any other fighter jet paired with IRST(which the outdated F22 lacks), missile warning sensors, DIRCM(never seen in any other jet), other electro optical sensors, not to mention N036 Belka is literally an AESA radar complex. It has a nose-mounted X-band AESA supplemented by two side-looking X-band AESA arrays and L-band arrays in the wing leading edges and even another in the rear.

The only joke is the outdated F22 which is a failed unproven jet which the united states themselves don't want or the fat piece of tin which couldn't even clear the 5th gen requirements stated by the company who made them, not to mention it facing loses and humiliation even against 3rd world pirates or primitive armies. The Su57 is the most combat tested jet against a modern military. Also, why you bothered over the engines? It would still fly circles around your slow and fat amy and most 4th gen's with no issue? Su57 combines the best of all worlds required for a jet to survive in modern combat in contested airspace and to make it even better, it doesn't need an another jet to compensate for it's weaknesses like the F35 or F22 does.

US doesn't wants F22? Who told u? AFAIK they gonna for upgrade F22. There are few fightet jet nobody wants exist now, mig 35 & SU57 are examples.

 

[Bon Plan]

F22 is critically outdated that even the US stopped making them.

No. They decided to stop to produce it because of the fall of USSR.

The only joke is the outdated F22 which is a failed unproven jet which the united states themselves don't want

Are you serious ?

 

[Optimist]

This thread is drifting to nonsense, Beauty is skin deep but stupid goes right to the bone, You can't fix stupid

 

[Innominate]

This thread is drifting to nonsense, Beauty is skin deep but stupid goes right to the bone, You can't fix stupid

No cht. After decades the haters still claiming F-35 isn't as agile as 4th gen just absolute mental.

 

[Batman]

US doesn't wants F22? Who told u? AFAIK they gonna for upgrade F22. There are few fightet jet nobody wants exist now, mig 35 & SU57 are examples.

They are upgrading the jets because it's original configuration was crap and they stopped making them. Also don't shift the goalpost, address the primary discussion.

 

[Batman]

No. They decided to stop to produce it because of the fall of USSR.

Whatever helps them yankees cope

Are you serious ?

Theatricality and deception are powerful agents to the uninitiated... but we are initiated, aren't we, Bruce

 

[Bon Plan]

They are upgrading the jets because it's original configuration was crap and they stopped making them. Also don't shift the goalpost, address the primary discussion.

What kind of upgrade? A very limited air to ground capacity ?
If not it was and remains one of the best, if not the best, air dominance jet.
They stop the production because USSR collapse. Nothing else.

Theatricality and deception are powerful agents to the uninitiated... but we are initiated, aren't we, Bruce

Whatever helps them yankees cope

They decided instead to study and produce a more affordable and exportable jet : F-35 (note that they refused to sell F22 to one of their nearer ally : Japan).
At those time no one can influence uncle Sam.

 

[Hydra]

They are upgrading the jets because it's original configuration was crap and they stopped making them. Also don't shift the goalpost, address the primary discussion.

We are upgrading MKI, is it because its a crap?

 

[Batman]

What kind of upgrade? A very limited air to ground capacity ?
If not it was and remains one of the best, if not the best, air dominance jet.
They stop the production because USSR collapse. Nothing else.

It's an outdated and overpriced near soviet era machine.

It's 20 year track record of shooting down a single balloon is no laughing matter

They decided instead to study and produce a more affordable and exportable jet : F-35 (note that they refused to sell F22 to one of their nearer ally : Japan).
At those time no one can influence uncle Sam.

It has nothing to do with the jet's capability, heck it even lost to the rafale in a dog fight inspite of being an air superiority fighter.

 

[Batman]

We are upgrading MKI, is it because its a crap?

There is a very common saying almost all of us have heard since our childhood, "Action speaks louder than words", I'll let you into something, the F22 failed to replace the very jet it was meant to replace. While one jet is still being produced today, the other had it's production stopped more than 15 year ago.

 

[Ad 04 30]

This is objectively wrong on so many level

It has planform and extensive edge alignment, flattest body for fighter, small vertical stabalisers, internal weapons bay, composites, RAM coating, flat engine nozzle etc

It has distributed in levels and capability never before seen in any other fighter jet paired with IRST(which the outdated F22 lacks), missile warning sensors, DIRCM(never seen in any other jet), other electro optical sensors, not to mention N036 Belka is literally an AESA radar complex. It has a nose-mounted X-band AESA supplemented by two side-looking X-band AESA arrays and L-band arrays in the wing leading edges and even another in the rear.

The only joke is the outdated F22 which is a failed unproven jet which the united states themselves don't want or the fat piece of tin which couldn't even clear the 5th gen requirements stated by the company who made them, not to mention it facing loses and humiliation even against 3rd world pirates or primitive armies. The Su57 is the most combat tested jet against a modern military. Also, why you bothered over the engines? It would still fly circles around your slow and fat amy and most 4th gen's with no issue? Su57 combines the best of all worlds required for a jet to survive in modern combat in contested airspace and to make it even better, it doesn't need an another jet to compensate for it's weaknesses like the F35 or F22 does.

What?

They haven't even reached the level of F119, and Raptor's production was closed down 15 years back

USAF was going to buy 600 jets but didn't due to fall of USSR, peace dividend and the fact that majority of nations maintained decent relations with US in the 2000s. Those are massive budget cuts and consolidation of entire MIC, not some opium

USAF wants it out because they can't produce it any more and as a result no major upgrades can be given beside retrofitting them

It's an outdated and overpriced near soviet era machine.

It's 20 year track record of shooting down a single balloon is no laughing matter

It has nothing to do the jet's capability, heck it even lost to the rafale in a dog fight inspite of being an air superiority fighter.

SU57's record is doing absolutely nothing beside doing some highly televised sorties even though they've been at full scale war for 5 years and have far better overall hardware. You're comparing it to that

And training fights and simulations are done in various scenarios.

There is high chance that the said Rafale started the simulation while being behind the Raptor.

And I'm sure you won't be caught doing BFM dogfight with no missiles in real world scenario and war.

FA50 of Philippine air force has also shot down F22 in those training fights. So LIFT platform is better than stealth air superiority jet aswell?

 

[Batman]

What?

They haven't even reached the level of F119, and Raptor's production was closed down 15 years back

Objectively false but @Hyperactive ADD is much better at debunking these sort of stuff than me.

USAF was going to buy 600 jets but didn't due to fall of USSR, peace dividend and the fact that majority of nations maintained decent relations with US in the 2000s. Those are massive budget cuts and consolidation of entire MIC, not some opium

USAF wants it out because they can't produce it any more and as a result no major upgrades can be given beside retrofitting them

Lot of cope

SU57's record is doing absolutely nothing beside doing some highly televised sorties even though they've been at full scale war for 5 years and have far better overall hardware. You're comparing it to that

No matter how you spin it, at the end of the day, it has a much better track record than shooting one balloon in 20 years, not to mention the humiliation of F35 against even 3rd rate pirates but that's another point of discussion.

And training fights and simulations are done in various scenarios.

There is high chance that the said Rafale started the simulation while being behind the Raptor.

And I'm sure you won't be caught doing BFM dogfight with no missiles in real world scenario and war.

FA50 of Philippine air force has also shot down F22 in those training fights. So LIFT platform is better than stealth air superiority jet aswell?

The Rafale unlike the FA 50 encounter was that it was specifically a repeated 1v1 WVR engagement where the Rafale did beat the F22 and no need to be fixated on that point, I merely provided one example regarding my primary point.

 

[Hydra]

There is a very common saying almost all of us have heard since our childhood, "Action speaks louder than words", I'll let you into something, the F22 failed to replace the very jet it was meant to replace. While one jet is still being produced today, the other had it's production stopped more than 15 year ago.

Why you are changing the goal post (your own argument in post #310). FYI F22 was designed as successor to F15C/D. Both were not in production since early 1990,the very same time frame F22 started active duty. So your argument is void over here. The only negative thing abo6F22 is its exorbitant price tag, thanks to USSR. They reduced to mere 189 from planned 700+ due to the fact that the country it meant to fight no longer existing.

 

[Ad 04 30]

Objectively false but @Hyperactive ADD is much better at debunking these sort of stuff than me.

Lot of cope

No matter how you spin it, at the end of the day, it has a much better track record than shooting one balloon in 20 years, not to mention the humiliation of F35 against even 3rd rate pirates but that's another point of discussion.

The Rafale unlike the FA 50 encounter was that it was specifically a repeated 1v1 WVR engagement where the Rafale did beat the F22 and no need to be fixated on that point, I merely provided one example regarding my primary point.

Alot of claims of cope but zero elaboration and explanation.

This is being said while comparing to a jet which has total production run of some 40 jets in last 10 years, all while country's spending is all time high, in full scale war and wartime industry, and continued production of SU35, and at larger scale I would like to add


I forgot when F35 lost to some pirates when thwy were bombing Iran, and shooting down their jet over Tehran with zero losses.



Your example is both horrible and extremely narrow.

Rafale a 4th gen delta canard which are known for great manuverbility was fighting against clean raptor in BFM, and that's the argument people use for claiming Raptor is a bad jet.

En combat air-air, l'aviation de chasse française tiendrait trois jours - l'Opinion

Un rapport, rédigé par des aviateurs, pointe les « vulnérabilités significatives » de la France en matière de « supériorité aérienne », décrivant les impasses technologiques, le manque de munitions et les incertitudes sur les programmes d'avenir

www.lopinion.fr

While this is Rafale fighting against F35

 

[Batman]

Why you are changing the goal post (your own argument in post #310).

You've failed to address all my original points and still haven't addressed it so far btw and accuse me of the very thing you were accused of in the first place?

FYI F22 was designed as successor to F15C/D. Both were not in production since early 1990,the very same time frame F22 started active duty. So your argument is void over here. The only negative thing abo6F22 is its exorbitant price tag, thanks to USSR. They reduced to mere 189 from planned 700+ due to the fact that the country it meant to fight no longer existing.

You're actually making my point for me. The F-22 was designed as the successor to the F-15C/D, but it never replaced the F-15C/D fleet as intended. That's not my interpretation, the US Congressional Budget Office explicitly says the Air Force planned to replace its F-15A-Ds with F-22s, but because F-22 procurement was reduced, it had to continue operating roughly 240 F-15C/Ds.

Whether F-15C production had already ended is completely irrelevant. Replacing an aircraft means replacing the aircraft in service, not replacing its production line. The F-15Cs continued serving for decades precisely because there weren't enough F-22s to replace them.

And here's the amusing part: when those surviving F-15Cs finally became too old, what did the USAF buy to replace them? Another F-15, the F-15EX. The USAF itself told Congress that it had begun replacing the F-15C/D fleet with the F-15EX, and DoD describes the EX as recapitalizing the divesting F-15C/D fleet.