India eyes 6th generation FCAS, looks at tying up with France for possible collaboration

[screambowl]

https://twitter.com/x/status/2085961253286203739

Time to move this thread to Indian section

My basic understanding says, Govt of India will prioritize 6th gen technology more than 5th gen aircraft. While American have been operating it for the past 30 years, the Chinese and Russians for last decade, the Russians have develop strategy to counter them with more lethal air defence, which has been observed in west Asia conflict. In coming 10 years there will be counter to 5th Gen technology too.

When DRDO has made RAM, RAS, etc, working on DEW, TVC, etc then we don't need full airframe of FCAS/GCAP, just the engine & some components.

I don't think the manufacturing of 6th gen airframe will follow same lean manufacturing technology as 5th generation. A lot of manufacturing deficiency detection will be machine learning based. India will have to outsource powerful tools and semiconductors for this. As you already mentioned

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23 IITs with 18,000+ seats.

Only the old IITs are credible IITs. The new ones aren't really ready, infact NIT Pryagraj is better than most of the new IITs in research and learning.

 

[RationalGuy]

Honestly, we are spending much less as a fraction of GDP on defense anyways. We pay a lot in pensions on top of it. I will say even if this costs additional 200 billion over 20 years, its worth it. Especially if India is going to be a 5 trillion dollar economy in coming 3 years.

One notable difference from Scorprene is that we got the final product and never got a front seat in development process.

Another interesting thing: the only fukken thing we let DRDO and our esteemed R&D folks do : the AIP is still not ready. For lord know what reason. I personally would have allowed MESMA AIP to be inducted and later in 10-15 years, additional follow on orders should have been allowed to induct our PAFC in new Scorpene subs.

The entire P75(I) has been a joke! Could have been avoided if we had allowed MESMA AIP and let our own mature and tested in a Kilo sub.

This is exactly the situation that is happening in our IAF too. Too many science project too few capabilities. There is a god damned AESA equiped 4.5 gen fighter in the waiting but it is hamstringed by certification of RWR. And low rate of GE engine production. LOL!

AMCA is going to be the same too. This time on F414 and possibly Electro Optics.

As @Ginvincile said, we celebrate announcement of projects and forget about the capabilities.

If FACS comes online, I will be happy because for the first time India military industry complex will get a master class in how to make new planes at the highest level.

Bruh 200 billion over 20 years is $10 billion per year on this project alone: litetally almost what we spent on entire Arihant program spent in 1 year for 20 years! And that too on a program where realistically India will not be the main driver and will NOT be absorbing the tech as much. Tbh, it looks like a really dumb decision.

You're essentially saying we need to spend $200 billion to ATTEND a class where all we will do is essentially watch someone else do the product and hope to learn a few bits and pieces. Yea dont make sense at all.

May as well buy freaking F35 then, FCAS wont be available until 2040 and all of its core tech will be in the hands of the French. What's to say we won't be reliant on the French for that program the same way Europeans and Koreans/Japanese are reliant on US for F35 for spares and even daily updates to get the thing flying? Remember how the others were "partners" in the F35 program?

I get many of you are tired and fed up but we need to be rational and patient. Having a 6th gen fighter or not is not an existential thing to the level it will force us to do this.

 

[_Anonymous_]

Dude, Eurofighter was a consortium based effort and a messs. It is often called Eurofailure for a reason.

I'm referring to the process of development of the FA here not what followed including production & upgrades. Wasn't the entire topic initiated by you on the question of development ?

Major being a mess of beaurocratic nightmare. One reason Eurofighter still worked to the extant it did was because Airbus was involved.

What's Airbus's presence or absence got to do with anything ? Had they been absent the work share would've gotten allocated to another party. Or is it your contention that the expertise & technology Airbus possesses is unique in some manner ?

For GCAP, this time, there is no Airbus. May be they will join later.

It'd be a problem of plenty then . Too many cooks ...

And for India there was additional mess. Eurofailure Typhoon has several American components that will require clearance from US senate due to ITAR.

Once again you're referring to production models. If India hypothetically were part of the GCAP or any other such program involving the Brits these issues would be thrashed out at the negotiation stage itself.

One probable solution is India opts for equivalent COTS or develops these components on its own while UK chooses what they're comfortable with ITAR or not since they aren't going to be affected much by ITAR .

And likely, it will again have american components. Indian MoD babu saw the writing on the wall and decided not to join.

I gave you the reason why India didn't join. The other factor is absolute lack of trust . That's the reason you don't see Brit involvement in our procurement of high tech stuff any longer.

The last front line equipment we sourced from them was the Jaguar followed by the conversion of HMS Hermes to INS Viraat & procurement of a complement of V/STOL Sea Harriers FA & Sea King hptrs.

In between you had the sale & ToT of BAe Hawk AJT which can hardly be categorised as front line stuff , rather it's more support related equipment given it'd be used for training.

RRs participation in Naval programs for propulsion systems has come after a very long time. You could say the Brits are on probation.

And that was good. It is one more Eurofighter in making. It will be decent in technology (provided Airbus joins as well), it will be a beaurocratic nightmare and it will have an additional remote control in washington.

You seem to labour under the impression GCAP has parts not covered under ITAR . None of the other participants besides UK are affected by ITAR as they're all part of the US security umbrella.

France on the other hand has the only fully ITAR/EAR free western aviation pipeline on the planet and they WANT to keep it that way. It is useful because we will work with france and sign favourable technology sharing agreements unlike dealing with a hostile US. We will get a frontseat in development. Workshare of drones likely (because that can be aligned with our CATS program) and engine tech IPR license and some degree of tech transfer and so on. And most important, we will get a plane that works without GE being a dick that it is.

Le Francais have their own agenda. If this Rafale deal goes thru the future of le Francais military aviation is more or less secured for the next 4 decades.

This is important as the future economic prospects of le Francais isn't assured or in any case isn't going to be what it used to be . They've lost their neo colonial empire in the Sahel in Africa . Their TFR is rapidly collapsing which seems to be an universal problem , their average demographic profile will be < 40-50 in the following decades plus they've imported a whole host of undesirable elements as immigrants.

Hence defence spending gets low priority & European re armament has come st precisely the time they don't need it . True for all the other states in EU / NATO as well . Add to that US recalcitrance & deliberate provocation of Russia a key element in the continuation of the Ukraine war. In short the prognosis isn't good.

We'd have to see what's in the FCAS / SCAF JV for ourselves .

 

[_Anonymous_]

The biggest draw for France is India's scale and cost reduction potential which is greater than all the other Eurozone countries.

I'd expect any FCAS contract to follow the same template as that for the 114 Rafale currently under negotiation. Tier 2/3 suppliers could be chosen on a competitive basis from either country.

If the 120kN TF engine prog eventually yields a 140kN variant, then it would the perfect fit for a SCAF derived jet than anything else. India will need to bargain effectively w/France to get the best possible RoI though.

Once again you're referring to production. We need both - expertise in development & production. It's not an either or scenario & please don't confuse one for the other.

Le Francais shifting production here benefits both equally. They get the benefits of labour arbitage in a high tech sector whereas we get the benefits of boosting our expertise & skilling our labour besides contributing to the economy.

That's not a substitute for expertise in development even if le Francais attempt such a trade off during negotiations.

Please bear in mind that 2 decades hence the demographic profile of all of the EU is going to be bad . This will take a toll on their economy & jobs especially the high tech sector.

What Dassault is doing is getting itself a nice insurance policy in India the fastest growing market now & in all possibility for the next 2-3 decades.

Moreover if they were to seek such an arrangement from prospective partners who among their current client profile ticks all boxes including experience & expertise in development & mfg including future potential to absorb tech & build on it plus most important of all - trust ?

Egypt or Greece or Croatia or Serbia or UAE or Indonesia ? You could even throw in Eurofighter & Gripen customers . Of these only two - Brazil & Turkey fit the bill. Brazil isn't going to offer a huge market not now certainly not 2 decades from now & Turkey is simply not trustworthy.

That leaves China , Japan & RoK. You can derive your own conclusions on how they fit the billing for le Francais.

 

[Bhartiya Naagrik Sainik]

My basic understanding says, Govt of India will prioritize 6th gen technology more than 5th gen aircraft. While American have been operating it for the past 30 years, the Chinese and Russians for last decade, the Russians have develop strategy to counter them with more lethal air defence, which has been observed in west Asia conflict. In coming 10 years there will be counter to 5th Gen technology too.

I don't think the manufacturing of 6th gen airframe will follow same lean manufacturing technology as 5th generation. A lot of manufacturing deficiency detection will be machine learning based. India will have to outsource powerful tools and semiconductors for this. As you already mentioned

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AMCA can be pumped up to MLUed 5.5gen but inadequate volume for 6gen.
Bcoz new jet takes 15-20 years, someday 6gen work has to start officially, 1st with soft work - CAD, CFD, test articles. WHEN? Any problems? No money?
Is entire ADA super busy? If yes then recruit more & expand it. What are they doing now?
Expand HAL also. More job opportunities.
Ghatak is tested by small scale vehicle, do it for 6gen jet also like X-36.
YF-22 was redesigned in 1987 in 3 months. Don't we have that vintage capability today after 39 years?

Only the old IITs are credible IITs. The new ones aren't really ready, infact NIT Pryagraj is better than most of the new IITs in research and learning.

Entire group of top colleges not needed. Turkey, Sweden, UK, France, S.Korea, Japan are size of 1-2 states of India. So the work force size of Kaan, KF-21, FCAS, GCAP are also small.

 

[Saaho]

Bruh 200 billion over 20 years is $10 billion per year on this project alone: litetally almost what we spent on entire Arihant program spent in 1 year for 20 years! And that too on a program where realistically India will not be the main driver and will NOT be absorbing the tech as much. Tbh, it looks like a really dumb decision.

Bruh. 10 billion is not even 0.3% of GDP of India in 2026. We have been spending like crime on defense. Most in popularity programs like OROP. India spends only 1.9% of its GDP on defense. Ladli Chootna Ladki Chootna takes way more money. 0.25% addition to bring it up to 2.15% is going to be bare minimum. NATO recommends 5% of GDP. We will be doing barely 2.15% then.

It does not matter who is the bloody driver and who is the conductor. It matter if it is going to be another fukken Tejas or IJT or AMCA. None of them have given any planes. What will we defend the country with? flock of birds?

Did you hear what IAF Chief told publically to HAL? We should not trust any of these jokers or any vendor with minimal experience in defense.

You're essentially saying we need to spend $200 billion to ATTEND a class where all we will do is essentially watch someone else do the product and hope to learn a few bits and pieces. Yea dont make sense at all.

YES! Absolutely! We need to attend class because we do not know and have failed even in building a basic jet trainer. It will teach us how the hell they go about it and what we have been repeatedly doing wrong.
We will get REAL planes as added benefit. Not science projects like Tejas and IJT.

May as well buy freaking F35 then, FCAS wont be available until 2040 and all of its core tech will be in the hands of the French. What's to say we won't be reliant on the French for that program the same way Europeans and Koreans/Japanese are reliant on US for F35 for spares and even daily updates to get the thing flying? Remember how the others were "partners" in the F35 program?

Buying F-35 does not work because USA is India's adversory and has a very poor history as a defense partner. French have been consistent in providing best of their platform with no geopolitical rsk, no supply chain risk and above all no restriction on how we use the platforms.

I get many of you are tired and fed up but we need to be rational and patient. Having a 6th gen fighter or not is not an existential thing to the level it will force us to do this.

Look, it is NOT rational to keep on repeating and expect the same result. You want a different result? Here is how to do it.

Chinese have THREE airplane makers, all under AVIC. They compete. Either split HAL into 3 or create 3 with PPP model. Let them do JV and compete.

Meanwhile work with those who can actually make the fighter. See how they do it. And get real planes as an added bonus.

 

[Speedster1]

Once again you're referring to production. We need both - expertise in development & production. It's not an either or scenario & please don't confuse one for the other.

Le Francais shifting production here benefits both equally. They get the benefits of labour arbitage in a high tech sector whereas we get the benefits of boosting our expertise & skilling our labour besides contributing to the economy.

That's not a substitute for expertise in development even if le Francais attempt such a trade off during negotiations.

Please bear in mind that 2 decades hence the demographic profile of all of the EU is going to be bad . This will take a toll on their economy & jobs especially the high tech sector.

What Dassault is doing is getting itself a nice insurance policy in India the fastest growing market now & in all possibility for the next 2-3 decades.

Moreover if they were to seek such an arrangement from prospective partners who among their current client profile ticks all boxes including experience & expertise in development & mfg including future potential to absorb tech & build on it plus most important of all - trust ?

Egypt or Greece or Croatia or Serbia or UAE or Indonesia ? You could even throw in Eurofighter & Gripen customers . Of these only two - Brazil & Turkey fit the bill. Brazil isn't going to offer a huge market not now certainly not 2 decades from now & Turkey is simply not trustworthy.

That leaves China , Japan & RoK. You can derive your own conclusions on how they fit the billing for le Francais.

France will likely insist on DA being prime contractor for key aspects like the airframe, FCS and propulsion as it did with FCAS. They are more or less evenly placed vs DRDO/ADE when it comes to stealth aircraft D&D though. DA has worked on stealth UCAV programs like Neuron ( including flying Grand Duc/Petit Duc demonstrators) while ADE has only recently proven a flying wing stealth planform via the SWIFT prog. Once AMCA prototyping starts, we'll have more relevant experience that DA won't.)

The IAF/MoD may be OK with DA taking the lead, as long as both countries requirements can be harmonized. As you pointed out, this would be our chance to absorb prog mgmt expertise from a major Western aerospace major. The amount of design work we ultimately get might also depend on the amount of money we'd be prepared to put up.

The rest of the avionics and mission systems will likely be unique, based on the respective national requirements, imo.

 

[_Anonymous_]

I think a lot of the arguments forwarded by @Saaho ; @Ginvincible don't seem to factor in a few truisms. How many countries have a proven 5th Gen platform ? It's only the US. The Russian Su-57 has its own set of fans & detractors. Then we have the Chinese J-20 & J-35 about which we don't know much .

This is to say we don't quite know if the 5th Gen FAs produced by China & Russia are within the same bandwidth of US 5th Gen FA . Let's not forget the US is a pioneer in this field with > 4+ decades of experience . That's not easy for a newcomer in this line of work to duplicate or master in half the time.

Furthermore 5th Gen technology feeds into 6th Gen. You can even go so far as to say if 5th Gen FAs are the preliminary work as far as full stealth or VLO goes the further iterations like 6th & 7th Gen will take this concept further still. This iterative development is standard fare in R&D irrespective the product.

Coming to India I think you guys aren't paying attention to the development path we've chosen to take for the AMCA. Given the problems we faced in the LCA program which was to develop not just the FA but a corresponding ecosystem as well as vital technology for the LCA namely the FCS , composite materials , propulsion system ,LPI radar ( which was a much later development ) & finally the AAM to go with it you'd find that except for the propulsion system all the other components / sub components have already been developed / are in the final stages of development .

For the AMCA we've chosen to de link the development of fundamental technologies from the development of the FA & from the available information in the public domain that program is more or less on track as the designs are frozen & all the fundamental technologies are in advanced stages of development except for the propulsion system. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Moving on to the 6th Gen somebody brought up tail less design as a characteristic of a 6th Gen FA claiming we lack design expertise in it. That's the reason we're developing the Ghatak aren't we ? The pathway is clear in case people haven't noticed it LCA Mk-1 -> LCA Mk-1a -> LCA Mk-2 -> AMCA Mk-1 / Ghatak -> AMCA Mk-2 -> 6th Gen FA .

In between system of systems tech like CCAs etc are also being simultaneously developed like the CATS Hunter , FUFA etc. The only item absent in the list is the propulsion system. I'm confident that apart from this lacunae which is also being addressed most of the other technology would appear on the AMCA which would need further refining for the 6th Gen which we can manage given 6th Gen FA whether in a JV with France or independently isn't going to have it's first flight before 2040 likely in 2045.

Moreover if one looks at the global scenario the 6th Gen would be fielded by the US & China in the early to mid 2030s . All the others in the race for a 6th Gen be it the GCAP or the FCAS won't materialise before the 2040s .

Then there's the production aspect to be considered. Given the amount expended on the 5th & 6th Gen programs including mfg & maintenance i.e CAPEX & OPEX , you're likely to see a decreased appetite to take on the 7th Gen FA project on the part of both China & the US . Hence don't bet on the 7th Gen anytime soon for the world will be a completely different place by the end of the 2030s.

 

[Saaho]

I'm referring to the process of development of the FA here not what followed including production & upgrades. Wasn't the entire topic initiated by you on the question of development ?

My question is if we get bird on time in hand and learn how to do it. With France that works. With UK I doubt because they have nt been making planes since 90s. Neither is Japan, they only have science projects like M-2 or whatever. And certainly not Italy which is a great part of supply chain in radars but is incomplete.
So France is natural choice in a JV in development of 6th gen.

 

[RationalGuy]

Bruh. 10 billion is not even 0.3% of GDP of India in 2026. We have been spending like crime on defense. Most in popularity programs like OROP. India spends only 1.9% of its GDP on defense. Ladli Chootna Ladki Chootna takes way more money. 0.25% addition to bring it up to 2.15% is going to be bare minimum. NATO recommends 5% of GDP. We will be doing barely 2.15% then.

It does not matter who is the bloody driver and who is the conductor. It matter if it is going to be another fukken Tejas or IJT or AMCA. None of them have given any planes. What will we defend the country with? flock of birds?

Did you hear what IAF Chief told publically to HAL? We should not trust any of these jokers or any vendor with minimal experience in defense.


YES! Absolutely! We need to attend class because we do not know and have failed even in building a basic jet trainer. It will teach us how the hell they go about it and what we have been repeatedly doing wrong.
We will get REAL planes as added benefit. Not science projects like Tejas and IJT.



Buying F-35 does not work because USA is India's adversory and has a very poor history as a defense partner. French have been consistent in providing best of their platform with no geopolitical rsk, no supply chain risk and above all no restriction on how we use the platforms.



Look, it is NOT rational to keep on repeating and expect the same result. You want a different result? Here is how to do it.

Chinese have THREE airplane makers, all under AVIC. They compete. Either split HAL into 3 or create 3 with PPP model. Let them do JV and compete.

Meanwhile work with those who can actually make the fighter. See how they do it. And get real planes as an added bonus.

The FCAS is more of a science project than Tejas or AMCA right now bud. And spending $10 billion per year on a program which realistically WONT build any industry in India is STUPID beyond belief. We will be handing over our entire air force to the FRENCH effectively with this because we're getting Rafales too. Do you understand this? You want the French to control our air force effectively cuz "muh they are nice to us sar"!

Thankfully I am quite certain the Babus will never allow this to happen. We may as well spend that money on our domestic ecosystem on our own architecture and tech.

And you claim we can't build a basic trainer, what about Tejas then? A delayed project thats currently making Indian defence watchers tear out their hair, but still it exists and 80% of the work was done by us.

Yall are acting like we're freaking Nigeria with 0 expertise.

 

[Saaho]

I think a lot of the arguments forwarded by @Saaho ; @Ginvincible don't seem to factor in a few truisms. How many countries have a proven 5th Gen platform ? It's only the US. The Russian Su-57 has its own set of fans & detractors. Then we have the Chinese J-20 & J-35 about which we don't know much .

Thing is, US will not let you join their program. That does not work. So lets park that aside.

Furthermore 5th Gen technology feeds into 6th Gen. You can even go so far as to say if 5th Gen FAs are the preliminary work as far as full stealth or VLO goes the further iterations like 6th & 7th Gen will take this concept further still. This iterative development is standard fare in R&D irrespective the product.

The choice is not between US and France. The choice is between France and HAL and merry band. I will choose France any day. HAL can not even do an intermediate jet trainer in 25 or so years and I do not even mean production. Just basic development. I do not want them to anywhere near 6th gen. They can screw Tejas and AMCA.

Other option is Russia but it is much worse. For obvious reasons. And then UK and company, which has not built a complete plane since 90s. France is the only non ITAR complete supply chain of planes outside USA.

 

[RationalGuy]

My question is if we get bird on time in hand and learn how to do it. With France that works. With UK I doubt because they have nt been making planes since 90s. Neither is Japan, they only have science projects like M-2 or whatever. And certainly not Italy which is a great part of supply chain in radars but is incomplete.
So France is natural choice in a JV in development of 6th gen.

France hasn't made even a 5th gen yet do pray and tell us how this FCAS won't end up as a science project? The thing isnt even slated to appear before 2040 by when no matter what happens AMCA will be flying and be in the LSP stage at least.

You and Givincible and many others think AMCA won't appear before 2045 and will end up like Tejas even though our ecosystem is much stronger now. Can't wait to see what next excuse you and others will give to go with foren maal when it flies by 2035 and the Frenchies are still milking their Rafales then (and bickering with Germany over FCAS still).

 

[Saaho]

The FCAS is more of a science project than Tejas or AMCA right now bud. And spending $10 billion per year on a program which realistically WONT build any industry in India is STUPID beyond belief. We will be handing over our entire air force to the FRENCH effectively with this because we're getting Rafales too. Do you understand this? You want the French to control our air force effectively cuz "muh they are nice to us sar"!

Thankfully I am quite certain the Babus will never allow this to happen. We may as well spend that money on our domestic ecosystem on our own architecture and tech.

FCAS is 20-22 year in future. In all honestly, I can see FCAS reaching IOC before AMCA.
And Tejas, well I feel it is stupid to even mention Tejas. In 2026, Tejas is a trainer. Not a fighter. And HAL can not even deliver that.

France hasn't made even a 5th gen yet do pray and tell us how this FCAS eony end up as a science project? The thing isnt even stated to appear before 2040 by when no matter what happens AMCA will be flying and be in the LSP stage at least.

NO ONE other than US and China has made a fifth gen. So what do you do? Go to HAL?
Among the OPTIONS AVAILABLE France is best and very likely will deliver REAL planes on time. Because they make money out of it. And they have been making planes for long time.

HAL is useless.
UK is worse than France.
And there is no third option.

 

[Saaho]

We may as well spend that money on our domestic ecosystem on our own architecture and tech.

We have already spent money on this domestic whatever and that has failed to deliver.
Even a basic subsonic trainer is not working (IJT 36 Sitara). After 27 years.

And your point is to keep on repeat that expense that we have been doing since... mid 80s? And try nothing else?

That is the very definition of insanity. Repeating the same and expecting different results.

 

[RationalGuy]

FCAS is 20-22 year in future. In all honestly, I can see FCAS reaching IOC before AMCA.
And Tejas, well I feel it is stupid to even mention Tejas. In 2026, Tejas is a trainer. Not a fighter. And HAL can not even deliver that.

NO ONE other than US and China has made a fifth gen. So what do you do? Go to HAL?
Among the OPTIONS AVAILABLE France is best and very likely will deliver REAL planes on time. Because they make money out of it. And they have been making planes for long time.

HAL is useless.
UK is worse than France.
And there is no third option.

FCAS reaching IOC before AMCA? Yea nope. Do you even know what stage AMCA is in? I happen to know of at least some aspects of it because of some ppl I know in DataSol (who are making the MFD of the cockpit). All I will say is, its realistically at a much further stage of development than FCAS.

You forgot to address the point where your and Givincible's suggestion calls for handing over our entire air forces capability to the French? So 20th century it was the Russians ruling the roost 21st century its gonna be the French now? So when you want India to have a domestic industry and a domestic capability? The 23rd century?

We have already spent money on this domestic whatever and that has failed to deliver.
Even a basic supersonic trainer is not working (IJT 36 Sitara). After 26 years.

And your point is to keep on repeat that expense that we have been doing since... mid 80s? And try nothing else?

That is the very definition of insanity. Repeating the same and expecting different results.

No we haven't. You think we spent $200 billion or even 10% of that on the domestic industry? Wake up. India didnt even have that kind of money to throw before.

Kaveri didn't even get $500 mill and the results are visible.

Give peanuts to the domestic industry and expect wonders, when that fails run to the goras and give them the moon. Wah. You know what maybe India does deserve to be some regional third world power forever then, a bloated Brazil if we are filled with such a despicable and defeatist attitude.

If tomorrow the French bow to China and its interests then effectively, we will be forced to do the same too if we go though this route. Then, we wont get balkanized as @Ginvincible was suggesting but we will just become another also ran country in the shadow of China forever with fancy toys much like how Algeria is. This is as bad as balkanization. If India can't become a major global power it may as well cease to exist, whats the point of it existing with so much people and resources. Let it fade away.

 

[Saaho]

FCAS reaching IOC before AMCA? Yea nope. Do you even know what stage AMCA is in? I happen to know of at least some aspects of it because of some ppl I know in DataSol (who are making the MFD of the cockpit). All I will say is, its realistically at a much further stage of development than FCAS.

Look, I was there when Tejas was just around the corner and it still is. I was there where Sitara was just around the corner it is still there stuck.
I do not see why AMCA will not suffer the same consequence. It has same problems as Tejas. The folks who are making it do not know what they are doing. They do not have a supply chain and need help from someone who knows. I hope this 116 jet deal with Dassault will brings all the parts and plans in place but that is not here till now.

No we haven't. You think we spent $200 billion or even 10% of that on the domestic industry? Wake up. India didnt even have that kind of money to throw before.

With money we spent I expect HAL to atleast make a sub sonic trainer jet. It can not do it even in 26 years. Chinese made J10s in much smaller budget in 80s and 90s and a trainer jet in 90s with even smaller budget. So yes, HAL is useless and poor return on investment.
It can not even make basic jet let alone a fifth gen. It is very likely going to be another Tejas story. Complete with a movie.

I will say 200 billion spent on Dassault is better RoI than HAL et al. Let HAL first fix IJT and Tejas then we will see.

 

[Saaho]

Kaveri didn't even get $500 mill and the results are visible.

IJT Sitara did not even need Kaveri. And it is not yet done in 27 years now.

Give peanuts to the domestic industry and expect wonders, when that fails run to the goras and give them the moon. Wah. You know what maybe India does deserve to be some regional third world power forever then, a bloated Brazil if we are filled with such a despicable and defeatist attitude.

Chinese built their planes in 80s and 90s for much lesser budget. Tejas and IJT are not budget constrained at all. They are HAL constrained.

So when you want India to have a domestic industry and a domestic capability? The 23rd century?

When it is ready. It is not ready, so it does not get to do next gen stuff.

If tomorrow the French bow to China and its interests then effectively, we will be forced to do the same too if we go though this route. Then, we wont get balkanized as @Ginvincible was suggesting but we will just become another also ran country in the shadow of China forever with fancy toys much like how Algeria is. This is as bad as balkanization. If India can't become a major global power it may as well cease to exist, whats the point of it existing with so much people and resources. Let it fade away.

I have a more likely scenario. In 2040, Pakistan has 100 Fifth gen fighters and India is still waiting for AMCA first squadron to be inducted. A war breaks out and entire north western air command is bombed into oblivion.

More likely than French surrendering their interest to China. Remember, French did not even bowed to USA and you are claiming they will bow to China?

 

[RationalGuy]

IJT Sitara did not even need Kaveri. And it is not yet done in 27 years now.


Chinese built their planes in 80s and 90s for much lesser budget. Tejas and IJT are not budget constrained at all. They are HAL constrained.


When it is ready. It is not ready, so it does not get to do next gen stuff.


I have a more likely scenario. In 2040, Pakistan has 100 Fifth gen fighters and India is still waiting for AMCA first squadron to be inducted. A war breaks out and entire north western air command is bombed into oblivion.

More likely than French surrendering their interest to China. Remember, French did not even bowed to USA and you are claiming they will bow to China?

China was assembling reverse engineered Russian shit during the 80s. Can you give hard figures on what China spent on J10 vs what we spent on Tejas and the IJT? You think J10 was ready in the 80s and 90s? It took until 2000 to make that thing fly and little bit longer to operate it.

You act as if you know what China spent on J10 vs what we spent. In reality nobody knows the exact amount, but its 100% at least 2 times more than what we spent easily. I reckon J10 received more funding than Tejas IJT AND Kaveri COMBINED.

Btw Pakistan having 100 5th gen fighters by 2040? Get real. And even if that happens your FCAS won't be there to save the day, it will be at best moving towards prototype stage lol. Not even 1 FCAS will be ready for combat use by 2040, mark it down.

 

[_Anonymous_]

My question is if we get bird on time in hand and learn how to do it. With France that works.

France is certainly a better bet but they're not without faults either. Dassault Aviation signed their technical & commercial bids without any deviations & the moment they were announced as the winners in the commercial bid backed off from signing the agreement on grounds they couldn't stand guarantee for the workmanship quality & time taken by HAL to deliver.

If that was the case why did they sign & submit the bid without a letter of objection or deviation from the specified tender terms & conditions.

Then there's our experience with NG in the construction of the Scorpene submarines. Result they were deliberately excluded from the Project -75 I. Moreover there's not a peep from Naval HQ at the moment on additional Scorpenes we were supposed to contract a couple of years ago. And by the looks of it we aren't going to collaborate with NG anytime soon.

With UK I doubt because they have nt been making planes since 90s.

I just gave you the example of the Eurofighter & the fact that BAe was also the lead contractor / sub contractor for the F-35 project . For more details on the low down of BAe & RR's involvement contact Paddy & Sweetie . @BMD ; @Innominate

Au contraire DA has no experience of 5th Gen FA . They're leaping one generation to develop the 6th Gen FA . That's a handicap . No doubt DA has the legacy & technological depth to undertake the project but it'd be a tough deal.

Neither is Japan, they only have science projects like M-2 or whatever. And certainly not Italy which is a great part of supply chain in radars but is incomplete.
So France is natural choice in a JV in development of 6th gen.

Both Japan & Italy have a lot more industrial experience & depth in military aviation than us especially the former. You can't dismiss them out of hand. While we're making good progress I'd not be so arrogant as to dismiss what these countries including UK bring to the table. If the current trajectory continues maybe 3-4 decades from now we can afford to dismiss them .

Besides what exactly are you objecting to ? All 3 put together are developing a 6th Gen FA aren't they ? Your post suggests they're a bunch of fools out on a science project.

 

[_Anonymous_]

Thing is, US will not let you join their program. That does not work. So lets park that aside.

Frankly I can't tell if I'm not articulating my point well enough or you're reading into it something else which isn't there. Where did I mention the US is going to partner us for development of a 6th Gen platform or that we'd approach them with such a proposal ?

The choice is not between US and France. The choice is between France and HAL and merry band.

Please refer to what I've posted above on your insistence we are thinking of partnering the US.

I will choose France any day. HAL can not even do an intermediate jet trainer in 25 or so years and I do not even mean production. Just basic development. I do not want them to anywhere near 6th gen. They can screw Tejas and AMCA.

Just as ADA took their time to develop the design & along with it the ecosystem to engineer components so will HAL take time to develop mfg expertise & gain experience. Unfortunately there's no way around it.

As far as your accusations on HAL delaying the Basic & Intermediate Jet Trainers go are you aware that in order to create the ADA HAL's entire design team was transferred overnight to form that organization leaving the cupboard bare.

From there they had to start from scratch . Do you think developing that skill set from scratch in such a high tech sector is easily done ? That's being reflected in the extremely stretched timelines of the IJT . The basic trainer more or less materialised on time or with the least amount of delays going by HAL's track record .

As far as developing mfg expertise goes how do you expect a DPSU to gain mfg expertise from assembling CKD & SKD kits ? They're not going to take the initiative to step outside their mandate to reverse engineer those kits or use the information gained to initiate their own projects unless they're instructed to do so by the political executive.

So the real problem as always lies with our dhotis & babooos . You want to crucify someone for this problem do it to them . Consider the alternate scenario where HAL officials start reverse engineering without any clearance from the MoD & news leaks to the OEM or worse the media . What do you think is the fate that will befall those executives ?

Man you guys work in a corporate set up & come up with such thoughtless comments that Professional Story Teller used to argue & he's not spent a day in either a professional set up nor ever filled in a techno commercial tender in his life.

Other option is Russia but it is much worse. For obvious reasons. And then UK and company, which has not built a complete plane since 90s. France is the only non ITAR complete supply chain of planes outside USA.

Answered your points above & in the previous posts. Russia is ruled out except for import of the Su-57. Let's just say they are our ultimate redundancy plan in case things go full south with the US where we're already moving in that direction & also with France where the chances of that happening is remote.

The entire move to get out of the Russian orbit is the reason we went in for collaboration with the US as far as the LCA is concerned. Our dependence on Russia was deemed to be excessive to the point where they could literally cripple us if they so wished . That's how we went in with the Jaguar & later the Mirage 2000.

It's another matter the Russians came running offering better ToT , terms of payment , more state of the art products like the MiG-29 , offered to send a cosmonaut to space , offered technology for the construction of our N submarine etc.