History's largest mass murderer doesn't make a good tourist attraction

You questioned whether there was documented evidence, I provided it.
History's largest mass murderer doesn't make a good tourist attraction

Furthermore, plenty on this forum have defended them in the past, saying that there was no evidence. The Bengal famine is complicated. It's not a famine that Churchill engineered at all, as so many have claimed including yourself. He could have responded to it better but he did not engineer it, simply because there was nothing to be gained from doing so.


"The two actual events which Tharoor tries to link to Churchill are the atrocities in Kenya and the Bengal famine. I don't know enough to talk about the Kenyan atrocities, but Tharoor doesn't quote anything specific that Churchill was involved in, only noting that he 'directed or was complicit in policies'. As to the famine, Churchill's role is more complicated. The British absolutely did not cause the famine initially, that was the loss of Burma (a major source of food for Bengal) to the Japanese, combined with poor weather and plant diseases. What the British did was refuse to divert food supplies destined for Europe, and refuse the offer of MacKenzie King, the Prime Minister of Canada, to send extra food aid. Whilst this might have been logistically justified, given the shortage of shipping in the Indian Ocean and the risk of losing it to Japanese submarines, it certainly was not morally so. While Churchill was responsible for some portion of the three million deaths in this famine, he was by no means responsible for all of them, and his refusal to increase food shipments was not out of some strange genocidal tendency, as Tharoor suggests."


lol, Lets take your posted link, which is a discussion on the WP article, most of which are British apologists, no different from you. And given you have posted the link, lets see what it says.

Shashi Tharoor is author of “Inglorious Empire: What the British Did to India.” He chairs the Indian Parliament’s Foreign Affairs Committee.

“History,” Winston Churchill said, “will be kind to me, for I intend to write it myself.” He needn’t have bothered. He was one of the great mass murderers of the 20th century, yet is the only one, unlike Hitler and Stalin, to have escaped historical odium in the West. He has been crowned with a Nobel Prize (for literature, no less), and now, an actor portraying him (Gary Oldman) has been awarded an Oscar.

As Hollywood confirms, Churchill’s reputation (as what Harold Evans has called “the British Lionheart on the ramparts of civilization”) rests almost entirely on his stirring rhetoric and his talent for a fine phrase during World War II. “We shall not flag nor fail. We shall go on to the end. … We shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets. … We shall never surrender.” (The revisionist British historian John Charmley dismissed this as “sublime nonsense.”)

Remembering British wartime PM Winston Churchill

(Reuters)

Words, in the end, are all that Churchill admirers can point to. His actions are another matter altogether.

During World War II, Churchill declared himself in favor of “terror bombing.” He wrote that he wanted “absolutely devastating, exterminating attacks by very heavy bombers.” Horrors such as the firebombing of Dresden were the result.

In the fight for Irish independence, Churchill, in his capacity as secretary of state for war and air, was one of the few British officials in favor of bombing Irish protesters, suggesting in 1920 that airplanes should use “machine-gun fire or bombs” to scatter them.

Dealing with unrest in Mesopotamia in 1921, as secretary of state for the colonies, Churchill acted as a war criminal: “I am strongly in favour of using poisoned gas against the uncivilised tribes; it would spread a lively terror.” He ordered large-scale bombing of Mesopotamia, with an entire village wiped out in 45 minutes.

In Afghanistan, Churchill declared that the Pashtuns “needed to recognise the superiority of [the British] race” and that “all who resist will be killed without quarter.” He wrote: “We proceeded systematically, village by village, and we destroyed the houses, filled up the wells, blew down the towers, cut down the great shady trees, burned the crops and broke the reservoirs in punitive devastation. … Every tribesman caught was speared or cut down at once.”

In Kenya, Churchill either directed or was complicit in policies involving the forced relocation of local people from the fertile highlands to make way for white colonial settlers and the forcing of more than 150,000 people into concentration camps. Rape, castration, lit cigarettes on tender spots, and electric shocks were all used by the British authorities to torture Kenyans under Churchill’s rule.

But the principal victims of Winston Churchill were the Indians — “a beastly people with a beastly religion,” as he charmingly called them. He wanted to use chemical weapons in India but was shot down by his cabinet colleagues, whom he criticized for their “squeamishness,” declaring that “the objections of the India Office to the use of gas against natives are unreasonable.”

Churchill’s beatification as an apostle of freedom seems all the more preposterous given his 1941 declaration that the Atlantic Charter’s principles would not apply to India and the colored colonies. He refused to see people of color as entitled to the same rights as himself. “Gandhi-ism and all it stands for,” he declared, “will, sooner or later, have to be grappled with and finally crushed.”

In such matters, Churchill was the most reactionary of Englishmen, with views so extreme they cannot be excused as being reflective of their times. Even his own secretary of state for India, Leopold Amery, confessed that he could see very little difference between Churchill’s attitude and Adolf Hitler’s.

Thanks to Churchill, some 4 million Bengalis starved to death in a 1943 famine. Churchill ordered the diversion of food from starving Indian civilians to well-supplied British soldiers and even to top up European stockpiles in Greece and elsewhere. When reminded of the suffering of his Indian victims, his response was that the famine was their own fault, he said, for “breeding like rabbits.”

Madhusree Mukerjee’s searing account of Churchill’s role in the Bengal famine, “Churchill’s Secret War,” documents that while Indians starved, prices for foodgrains were inflated by British purchases and India’s own surplus grains were exported, while Australian ships laden with wheat were not allowed to unload their cargo at Calcutta (where the bodies of those who had died of starvation littered the streets). Instead, Churchill ordered that grain be shipped to storage depots in the Mediterranean and the Balkans to increase the buffer stocks for a possible future invasion of Greece and Yugoslavia. European warehouses filled up as Bengalis died.

This week’s Oscar rewards yet another hagiography of this odious man. To the Iraqis whom Churchill advocated gassing, the Greek protesters on the streets of Athens who were mowed down on Churchill’s orders in 1944, sundry Pashtuns and Irish, as well as to Indians like myself, it will always be a mystery why a few bombastic speeches have been enough to wash the bloodstains off Churchill’s racist hands.

Many of us will remember Churchill as a war criminal and an enemy of decency and humanity, a blinkered imperialist untroubled by the oppression of non-white peoples. Ultimately, his great failure — his long darkest hour — was his constant effort to deny us freedom



So, given some members refer to you as Irish, and Churchil's conduct on the Irish independence, makes me wonder why would an irishman defend someone with false equivalencies; who in turn wholeheartedly butchered the Irish. But that is for you to contemplate upon.



Now coming to cholas, Who here is defending their wartime conduct? No one
Who is defending the BE's conduct ? evidently you (and perhaps, miserable failing at it)
 
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You questioned whether there was documented evidence, I provided it.
History's largest mass murderer doesn't make a good tourist attraction

Furthermore, plenty on this forum have defended them in the past, saying that there was no evidence. The Bengal famine is complicated. It's not a famine that Churchill engineered at all, as so many have claimed including yourself. He could have responded to it better but he did not engineer it, simply because there was nothing to be gained from doing so.


"The two actual events which Tharoor tries to link to Churchill are the atrocities in Kenya and the Bengal famine. I don't know enough to talk about the Kenyan atrocities, but Tharoor doesn't quote anything specific that Churchill was involved in, only noting that he 'directed or was complicit in policies'. As to the famine, Churchill's role is more complicated. The British absolutely did not cause the famine initially, that was the loss of Burma (a major source of food for Bengal) to the Japanese, combined with poor weather and plant diseases. What the British did was refuse to divert food supplies destined for Europe, and refuse the offer of MacKenzie King, the Prime Minister of Canada, to send extra food aid. Whilst this might have been logistically justified, given the shortage of shipping in the Indian Ocean and the risk of losing it to Japanese submarines, it certainly was not morally so. While Churchill was responsible for some portion of the three million deaths in this famine, he was by no means responsible for all of them, and his refusal to increase food shipments was not out of some strange genocidal tendency, as Tharoor suggests."

Winston Churchill killed as many as the worst genocidal dictators of the 20th century, says Indian politician


Churchill not entirely to blame for Bengal famine | Letters


https://winstonchurchill.org/resources/in-the-media/churchill-in-the-news/bengali-famine/


3 narratives. Let's see your analytical skills, Irish.
 
As Hollywood confirms, Churchill’s reputation (as what Harold Evans has called “the British Lionheart on the ramparts of civilization”) rests almost entirely on his stirring rhetoric and his talent for a fine phrase during World War II. “We shall not flag nor fail. We shall go on to the end. … We shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets. … We shall never surrender.” (The revisionist British historian John Charmley
Hence, what Churchmouse, did, what latter day historians think, was that he provided rhetoric& nothing else. If it's mistaken for leadership, blame the Irish.The rest were waiting to see his performance.


He had a well oiled mechanism at his disposal. All he did was provide the " Stirriring & inspiring " Speeches -for which he won accolades but in the absence of the an empire, was empty. That's why India was so important.

It's telling that Rudy Giuliani, endeavored to give similar speeches & gain legitimacy by linking them to Churchmouse.

To break it down in simple terms, Houlihan, all this isn't connected to what the rulers subjected their subjects to. That's what's being debated, retard. Churchill - the PM & other " Dignitaries " Were responsible were for the subjects in their empire, including the Irish & where he failed - intentionally. Hence, if Mao is to be pilloried as is Stalin, so is Churchmouse.

That's the crux of the debate. Neither invasions nor conquests - of the Cholas or the Normans.

@BMD
 
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Historical revisionism by Indians on Churchill is pretty annoying. He did not cause, start, or encourage any genocide whatsoever.

The Bengal famine was caused by the Japanese blocking off Burma.


Did Churchill Cause the Bengal Famine? - The Churchill Project - Hillsdale College
There was a novel by Blacks on Whites - which was so supportive of the white narration, that "Uncle Tom " was used as a honorific to refer to Blacks who supported slavery in some form or the other.

Congratulations - Uncle Chang. - if you're indeed of Chinese origin, which I very much doubt & which if you're, you're Uncle Chang or a Chinese - ( Canadian) version of BMD. Your colon ization is complete.
 
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lol, Lets take your posted link, which is a discussion on the WP article, most of which are British apologists, no different from you. And given you have posted the link, lets see what it says.

Shashi Tharoor is author of “Inglorious Empire: What the British Did to India.” He chairs the Indian Parliament’s Foreign Affairs Committee.

“History,” Winston Churchill said, “will be kind to me, for I intend to write it myself.” He needn’t have bothered. He was one of the great mass murderers of the 20th century, yet is the only one, unlike Hitler and Stalin, to have escaped historical odium in the West. He has been crowned with a Nobel Prize (for literature, no less), and now, an actor portraying him (Gary Oldman) has been awarded an Oscar.

As Hollywood confirms, Churchill’s reputation (as what Harold Evans has called “the British Lionheart on the ramparts of civilization”) rests almost entirely on his stirring rhetoric and his talent for a fine phrase during World War II. “We shall not flag nor fail. We shall go on to the end. … We shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets. … We shall never surrender.” (The revisionist British historian John Charmley dismissed this as “sublime nonsense.”)

Remembering British wartime PM Winston Churchill

(Reuters)

Words, in the end, are all that Churchill admirers can point to. His actions are another matter altogether.

During World War II, Churchill declared himself in favor of “terror bombing.” He wrote that he wanted “absolutely devastating, exterminating attacks by very heavy bombers.” Horrors such as the firebombing of Dresden were the result.

In the fight for Irish independence, Churchill, in his capacity as secretary of state for war and air, was one of the few British officials in favor of bombing Irish protesters, suggesting in 1920 that airplanes should use “machine-gun fire or bombs” to scatter them.

Dealing with unrest in Mesopotamia in 1921, as secretary of state for the colonies, Churchill acted as a war criminal: “I am strongly in favour of using poisoned gas against the uncivilised tribes; it would spread a lively terror.” He ordered large-scale bombing of Mesopotamia, with an entire village wiped out in 45 minutes.

In Afghanistan, Churchill declared that the Pashtuns “needed to recognise the superiority of [the British] race” and that “all who resist will be killed without quarter.” He wrote: “We proceeded systematically, village by village, and we destroyed the houses, filled up the wells, blew down the towers, cut down the great shady trees, burned the crops and broke the reservoirs in punitive devastation. … Every tribesman caught was speared or cut down at once.”

In Kenya, Churchill either directed or was complicit in policies involving the forced relocation of local people from the fertile highlands to make way for white colonial settlers and the forcing of more than 150,000 people into concentration camps. Rape, castration, lit cigarettes on tender spots, and electric shocks were all used by the British authorities to torture Kenyans under Churchill’s rule.

But the principal victims of Winston Churchill were the Indians — “a beastly people with a beastly religion,” as he charmingly called them. He wanted to use chemical weapons in India but was shot down by his cabinet colleagues, whom he criticized for their “squeamishness,” declaring that “the objections of the India Office to the use of gas against natives are unreasonable.”

Churchill’s beatification as an apostle of freedom seems all the more preposterous given his 1941 declaration that the Atlantic Charter’s principles would not apply to India and the colored colonies. He refused to see people of color as entitled to the same rights as himself. “Gandhi-ism and all it stands for,” he declared, “will, sooner or later, have to be grappled with and finally crushed.”

In such matters, Churchill was the most reactionary of Englishmen, with views so extreme they cannot be excused as being reflective of their times. Even his own secretary of state for India, Leopold Amery, confessed that he could see very little difference between Churchill’s attitude and Adolf Hitler’s.

Thanks to Churchill, some 4 million Bengalis starved to death in a 1943 famine. Churchill ordered the diversion of food from starving Indian civilians to well-supplied British soldiers and even to top up European stockpiles in Greece and elsewhere. When reminded of the suffering of his Indian victims, his response was that the famine was their own fault, he said, for “breeding like rabbits.”

Madhusree Mukerjee’s searing account of Churchill’s role in the Bengal famine, “Churchill’s Secret War,” documents that while Indians starved, prices for foodgrains were inflated by British purchases and India’s own surplus grains were exported, while Australian ships laden with wheat were not allowed to unload their cargo at Calcutta (where the bodies of those who had died of starvation littered the streets). Instead, Churchill ordered that grain be shipped to storage depots in the Mediterranean and the Balkans to increase the buffer stocks for a possible future invasion of Greece and Yugoslavia. European warehouses filled up as Bengalis died.

This week’s Oscar rewards yet another hagiography of this odious man. To the Iraqis whom Churchill advocated gassing, the Greek protesters on the streets of Athens who were mowed down on Churchill’s orders in 1944, sundry Pashtuns and Irish, as well as to Indians like myself, it will always be a mystery why a few bombastic speeches have been enough to wash the bloodstains off Churchill’s racist hands.

Many of us will remember Churchill as a war criminal and an enemy of decency and humanity, a blinkered imperialist untroubled by the oppression of non-white peoples. Ultimately, his great failure — his long darkest hour — was his constant effort to deny us freedom



So, given some members refer to you as Irish, and Churchil's conduct on the Irish independence, makes me wonder why would an irishman defend someone with false equivalencies; who in turn wholeheartedly butchered the Irish. But that is for you to contemplate upon.



Now coming to cholas, Who here is defending their wartime conduct? No one
Who is defending the BE's conduct ? evidently you (and perhaps, miserable failing at it)
Saturation bombing of cities was absolutely justified in WWII because children had been evacuated to the countryside and everyone left in the cities were part of the war machine, making bombs and bullets and sustaining the war machine. Besides, the Germans started the bombing, which is very clear in Sir Arthur Harris's speech.


The Cholas started the damn wars, they invaded most of South East Asia.

2-3 million Bengalis starved to death and the famine started of its own accord, not down to Churchill.
Bengal famine of 1943 - Wikipedia

Having observed Iraq since 2003 and Islamic behaviour in general, I would still advocate gassing them 75 years later.

Look up the Mau Mau rebellion and the Lari Massacre.
 
Oh wow, Tharoor again. Doesn't that guy have like a job or something?
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Superkaif
Tharoor is an asshat, he wouldn't last 5s in a debate with a genuine historian. His take is like Michael Moore's take on 9/11.
Further, Paddy, we've asked you to cite your references. What prevents you from doing it?

I realize it's difficult. Hell, falsehood is shit. Which floats. The truth lies buried. Under a rainbow. Let's see it, Flanagan
 
Are you a qualified historian, paddy? Let's see your credentials. Tharoor has gone to Oxford & debated with the academics & students there as the video below demonstrates -

Read: Shashi Tharoor's full speech asking UK to pay India for 200 years of its colonial rule


You think you know better than them, potato peeler, eater & victim.
And what exactly does an historian do? Look at someone else's work all day and then have the audacity to say that they don't like it.
 
I wonder how much compensation would be for this, if we factor in % of GDP at the time and 900 years of interest and inflation.

William Dalrymple on south India's Chola sculptures

"The fierce elegance of Shiva reflects that of the Cholas themselves. For even as they brought south Indian culture to a peak of courtly civility and perfection, they also wreaked a savage destruction of their rivals and enemies. Anaradhapura, the great Buddhist capital of Sri Lanka, was twice plundered, sacked and consigned to the flames by their warriors; for 75 years, Sri Lanka was ruled from Tanjore. The Rashtrakutan capital of Manyakheta was also burned to the ground; according to a western Chalukyan inscription near modern Bijapur, the Chola army behaved with exceptional brutality on their conquests in Karnataka, slaughtering women, children and Brahmins, and raping even high-caste girls. The Cholas worshipped and propitiated Kali, the fearsome goddess of destruction. One bronze survives that shows her adorned with earrings of human cadavers.

It is often the way that the finest and most subtle masterpieces of ancient or medieval art were produced by empires whose cosmopolitan nature and high culture was forged and financed in the hot furnace of bloody conquests: think of the Mughals or Ottomans, or, further to the west, the Romans, or most startlingly the Aztecs, whose bloody if spectacular civilisation resulted in another RA triumph two years ago. Certainly, the Chola's conquests and trading expeditions - they sent embassies to China and war fleets as far as Bali - produced a massive concentration of wealth in south India, much of which was channelled by Chola patronage into art and architecture: Rajaraja himself gave his temple in Tanjore 230 kilos of gold from his conquests, yet more of silver, and great sackfuls of jewels. In addition, all the villages of the empire had to set aside a proportion of their income to support the imperial temples and their art works. In 1118, Vikrama Chola recorded that he devoted an entire year's state revenue to glorifying his temple at Chidambaram with gold, jewels and pearls."
 
And what exactly does an historian do? Look at someone else's work all day and then have the audacity to say that they don't like it.
Which translates to you being a historian, is it, McMurtry? Let's see your credentials, Finnegan You were so open with it on Older Forum, O'Shea !Why the reticence, O'Flaherty? Out with it!!
 
I wonder how much compensation would be for this, if we factor in % of GDP at the time and 900 years of interest and inflation.

William Dalrymple on south India's Chola sculptures

"The fierce elegance of Shiva reflects that of the Cholas themselves. For even as they brought south Indian culture to a peak of courtly civility and perfection, they also wreaked a savage destruction of their rivals and enemies. Anaradhapura, the great Buddhist capital of Sri Lanka, was twice plundered, sacked and consigned to the flames by their warriors; for 75 years, Sri Lanka was ruled from Tanjore. The Rashtrakutan capital of Manyakheta was also burned to the ground; according to a western Chalukyan inscription near modern Bijapur, the Chola army behaved with exceptional brutality on their conquests in Karnataka, slaughtering women, children and Brahmins, and raping even high-caste girls. The Cholas worshipped and propitiated Kali, the fearsome goddess of destruction. One bronze survives that shows her adorned with earrings of human cadavers.

What's this thread all about, Potatoface? It's all about a ruler like Mao being apathetic to his own countrymen. What's the Cholas's conquest of Sri Lanka , a millenium ago, got to do with a potato famine in Ireland in the mid 19th century - under Brit administration - the very ones whose arses you kiss more than the statue of Mary, being the good altar boy who obliges the pastor of the parish as you are.


Where " British landlords , who didn't & still don't give a *censored* to Catholic especially Irish lives, got to do with it, including but especially Church mouse?


Are you daft? Or is the fact that you're just a 2nd generation immigrant to mainland Britain got to do with it, in that you feel you're obliged to defend the BE , inspite of being a descendant of potato consumers & producers for most of your miserable lives, just to justify your presence on the mainland and hence your citizenship as well, in the light of "The Troubles" et al .


All the major events in Ireland, happened under, what we know is strictly not orthodox Irish ETNICITY but Irish leadership like De Valera & Varadkar ( Guess all these peasant brains knew how best their purpose would be served , given a potato diet. ) Micheal Collins - yea!! Precursor to the final agreement.


Thanks for the confirmation.


It is often the way that the finest and most subtle masterpieces of ancient or medieval art were produced by empires whose cosmopolitan nature and high culture was forged and financed in the hot furnace of bloody conquests: think of the Mughals or Ottomans, or, further to the west, the Romans, or most startlingly the Aztecs, whose bloody if spectacular civilisation resulted in another RA triumph two years ago. Certainly, the Chola's conquests and trading expeditions - they sent embassies to China and war fleets as far as Bali - produced a massive concentration of wealth in south India, much of which was channelled by Chola patronage into art and architecture: Rajaraja himself gave his temple in Tanjore 230 kilos of gold from his conquests, yet more of silver, and great sackfuls of jewels. In addition, all the villages of the empire had to set aside a proportion of their income to support the imperial temples and their art works. In 1118, Vikrama Chola recorded that he devoted an entire year's state revenue to glorifying his temple at Chidambaram with gold, jewels and pearls."


Yawn.
 
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Oh, so because the Cholas were a long time ago, you don't owe anything? Well I think British rule in India was a long time ago too. What about today's malnutrition deaths in India? The equivalent of a Bengal famine every year.
 
Interesting that Analmouse now wishes to confine the discussion despite having originally chosen to diverge from the title topic.
 
Every time _Anonymous_ or Guynextdoor posts.

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